[00:00:00] Lisa: Employee engagement is a key indicator of success for most organizations. And it's a critical component for retention in a hot labor market. And yet what if you have ultra high engagement scores that don't correlate to customer satisfaction and the bottom line? Listen to this episode to explore what else we need to consider when it comes to creating a great place to work.
My guest is Tara Lockyer. She's the chief people officer at ATB financial, a large banking company servicing the province of LA. In her role, Tara is responsible for all people programs, including compensation, talent, leadership development, shared services, operations, and HR business partnering. She has deep global experience in the talent management arena and brings great wisdom to our conversation.
I truly enjoy getting to know Tara plus I picked up some great new insights. I know you will too. Thanks for listening.
welcome to the show, Tara. It's really great to have you join me to.
[00:02:39] Tara: well, it's great to.
be here. Thanks.
[00:02:41] Lisa: Well, I'm really looking forward to our conversation because just already in, in the green room, as they call it, we've already covered a lot of grounds. So I know that you're bringing a lot of, a lot of wisdom and experience to the audience today. So I was thinking perhaps just to kick us off, you could tell us a little bit about what inspired you to get into the world of.
HR talent management. What brought you here?
[00:03:06] Tara: Yeah, a funny, I think a lot of people probably have this story. I just sort of fell into it now, really going to date myself with this answer. Lisa, I was working in property and casualty insurance in Toronto for a multinational company many, many years ago when the Microsoft. The products came out, so they're updated.
And they were looking at, at the time it was in claims management loving yet. But they were looking for some trainers and I always had a desire to be a teacher, but never really liked kids all that much. There was just something really compelling. I said, wow, I'd love to learn that. I'd love to teach that.
And I just never. I just sort of went from that learning and development. I moved over into talent management. I did work in sort of business partnering at, came back to my first love, which was leadership development. And now, you know, I'm in a broader CPO role, but I really just sort of fell into frontline you know, delivery of an HR product.
And here?
I am.
[00:04:07] Lisa: Yeah, fascinating. How many people actually tell me that they fell into it, but that it wasn't by design necessarily.
[00:04:14] Tara: I don't even know if HR was recognized as a, as a profession, like in terms of certifications and designations. You know, I was one of the first, I think, to take some of the adult ed programs that have same effects. So it's just becoming really, it's very professionalized now, but that's definitely within last 20 years
[00:04:32] Lisa: Yeah. Oh, I did the St FX program too. Isn't that funny? Yeah. Yeah. Really, really great program. Well, so you know, at ATB could you tell us a little bit about, you've got a very broad portfolio, perhaps what's that what that's comprised?
[00:04:46] Tara: Yeah. So chief people, officer, I've got sort of the full HR remit. So I've got the centers of expertise. So we have compensation and benefits. We've got talent management and learning. We've got the operations of HR. So all of our PS, PNC advisors and ops, and then our classic HR business partners. And then also I've got change management and communications as well.
There are sometimes sitting within the PNC world and sometimes not, but they do sit with me. So I've caught a, kind of got the end-to-end people experience.
[00:05:16] Lisa: Right. So, so, okay. So really, really runs the gamut in terms of everything. So something, you know, you told me earlier when we were chatting as I think it's very fascinating. So you spent the majority of your career really as a center of excellence, right? Leading COE and in talent and learning and so on globally around the world.
And now here you are in, in a deeply regional organization in Alberta, you know, dedicated to serving Albertans. And yet you have the full breadth of HR, everything under that umbrella. Could you tell us a little bit about what that. Experience has been like that transition.
[00:05:54] Tara: So, first of all, and ironically, I thought it was going to be easy, Lisa, right? Because you know, my last organization we had about 55,011 different languages, many different countries. Just creating products and services that were relevant was difficult. Execution was horrendous. So I just came into the organization thinking, oh, this is going to be easy.
It's not each company is unique in its own way. You know, the challenges, the opportunities were quite unique. You know, I was sort of Jack of all trades king of none in the last organization, I didn't really have to go into depth into any particular market cause it just wasn't physically possible.
But now here I am in beautiful, beautiful Canmore sitting out in Alberta, in a regional bank. So really understanding that market, the dynamics of Alberta Where money comes from, where money's lost in the province and the support that our clients need from us is quite different. The talent marketplace is quite different.
We are constrained by the provincial borders and our, our purpose and mandate is really to uplift Alberta. So the value proposition in terms of. Contracting is really strong for Albertans, but not necessarily a strong way to go after talent in the broader Canadian marketplace or even into the U S so it's been challenging in its own exciting ways.
You get to tie all of the levers together when you have sort of the end-to-end remit across HR. So, you know, how can I make my performance system and my comp system and my talent programs and my learning programs, all and so they're not sort of disparate programs and services, but sort of a journey of things that layer on top of each other.
That's probably the thing that I'm enjoying the most is just creating that full value proposition in terms of everything that the team is doing,
[00:07:48] Lisa: Yeah, it was it's you're describing what I like to think of as an ecosystem where everything
[00:07:53] Tara: frankly.
[00:07:53] Lisa: Right. It's all connected in some way, leavers, you know, or it's another way to look at it. Like if we picture that sort of mechanical metaphor. So when you think about, you've been there, what about year and a half, I
guess? Yeah, so what's been the biggest challenge really in trying to connect all of those dots.
[00:08:12] Tara: Oh,
I'm surrounded on all sides by challenge, I would say getting started. So I think the organization before I joined. De-centralized and just prior to my arrival, relatively new CEO, not new to the organization, but new to his position, new strategy and the structure. So went from sort of a federated business unit model into a media.
So people were really just figuring out how to get work done. You know, trying to get work done in a singular business unit. It's not as complex when you try to organize and coordinate across a much more complex matrix. So I think just, getting people to understand it, understanding who the players are and then starting to lay the planks on.
Cor human capital systems that we thought were really critical for where we want it to go. So the first year our big focus was on just reevaluating the culture. And did we have the right elements in our culture to enable the strategy and out of that work? You know, we identified, we are an incredibly high care high learn organization, which is gonna serve us well as we go into this digital new future.
But we weren't necessarily as disciplined in how we managed performance to really get top performance out of our teams. So we identified culture, we identified some new traits in which performance and clients were sort of the two new elements. And then we started to put some systems in place to support that.
So the first big sort of change management transformation was to re-introduce performance enablement into the organization. To start to be able to coordinate between the functions and the businesses to get work done. So we've been on that journey for a year and a half, which required you know, performance enablement system, a process.
How we set scorecards for the organization, how our comp system aligned up to that. So lots of work in the sort of the infrastructure which I think has been a huge change management transition. And I think, you know, we've, there's been wonderful moments and some really hard moments through that, but we're starting to see the payoffs that the company has really lifted its performance this year.
And I think going forward, we now get to. Start to invest in, you know, the people more sort of their careers, how we're going to develop our talent, how we're going to shore up our leaders to make sure they're ready for this. Horizon of what leadership's going to look like because they think the pandemic, if nothing has shown us how important agility is for companies and for the people that are leading it.
So we just want to make sure our folks are prepared to probably work like this for, for some time to come.
[00:11:00] Lisa: Yeah, the agility thing, you make a good point. What are, what are some of the ideas that you have for, for tackling that, for helping to create that, agile capacity really in, in your leaders?
[00:11:12] Tara: So we've actually done a lot of investment. So we, we stood up a change management practice. And along with standing up the change management practice, we stood up a change sort of leadership practice to really skill up our leaders?
and what it means to be a change leader. So both the discipline of change management.
But then also the leadership skills of how do you lead through change? What does the change curve look like? How is leading through change? Like we're experiencing today different than maybe a more static period that the company is going through. What do people need from you in times of change? So the different styles of leadership and then really.
Just getting them to do some more tests and learn to support that sort of environment. So it's been, I guess, a multitude of things. It's been a bit of accountability, setting, creating an environment for them. That's a little bit different and then giving them some skills that they might not have had.
[00:12:08] Lisa: Yeah. A lot of people I talked to it really grappling with what, what is, there's so many unknowns. So what is the new reality going to be?
[00:12:16] Tara: That's the new reality. I think it's always just going to be so many unknowns.
[00:12:21] Lisa: Yeah. That's well taken because it is kind of, you know, I still hear the occasional person saying, oh, when we're back to normal, right. Like when we get back to normal and I, I think it'll just be a new normal, but we don't quite know what that will look like. A lot of companies seem to be. Really looking at, you know, a hybrid returned to work.
Right. So it's some in the office, you know, sometimes some at home, I mean, but you've got like many branches, like 200 plus branches, I think almost 300. So, so those are people that can't work from home. So what do you see as being the most important consideration? Moving forward in terms of how people get the work done?
I mean, there's corporate, but then there's the branch folks would
[00:13:00] Tara: Yeah. And I always refer to it as the next normal because they don't think the next Normal. So again, I think, Yeah.
we talk a lot, a bit of a hybrid, but when we talk about hybrid work, we talk about the tasks. So for your given role, what tasks do you have to do and how are those tasks best completed? So some of those.
Might be sitting here in your office with a lot of heads down time, some of those tasks might be in a bright open space with lots of white boarding and lots of people around you. Some of those tasks might be within a meeting room with some clients that you're interacting with, or they might be your CSR at the front desk, in a branch that you walk in.
So it's not. The role and its totality. It's just looking at the course of your day, your week, your month, and seeing what tasks are best done in what kind of environment, and then giving people the flexibility, for those tasks that can be done anywhere to say, where would I prefer to do that? But Yeah.
I mean, it is hard Durer for our front facing client staff to have the same level of flexibility as our corporate staff, but we certainly want to create an environment where they to also feel like they have some flexibility in their day.
For sure.
[00:14:13] Lisa: Yeah. Thank you for that. I, yeah, I think it's really important to, it sounds like it's very flexible, very agile approach in terms of like giving people, you know, the responsibility, and. Sort of say, what does my day require in terms of what's in front of me task wise? Right. would I be best served in the office or at home or depending if they have that flexibility?
Because I know in some cases you know, it's been decreed from on high that, you know, you must be in the office at least three days, so there's some hybrid kind of qualities there,
[00:14:44] Tara: Yeah, it's been hard. And I joined ATB with a very, very flexible culture and I think. A little bit team member driven to some extent. So it was, what's my preference for where I work versus what's the work I have to get done. And where is that best served? So if we ever get to go back to the corporate offices and you know, I, I'm very hopeful and there's been some windows of time where we do it's, you know, it's not up to you with your, within your intact team.
Let's have some conversation about when is it that we're going to come together and it's not, it's not prescriptive. And I can appreciate prescriptive because it's easier and it feels fair and equitable, but it doesn't necessarily serve the right outcomes for the work that's being done or for the people that are doing that work.
So we've taken the longer, more evolved approach of saying, Hey leaders facilitate these dialogues with your team members, really contract with each other. What work makes sense for you to come together? So if there's strategy sessions or team meetings or celebrations, or client interactions, or, you know, I think of myself, the CPO joined in the middle of the pandemic, just team member interaction.
Like I'm going to have to front load when I go back because there's no new team members that I've never had the honor of shaking their. So in some of the relationship roles that looks a bit different, but again, it's that mutual contracting. What works for you? What works for the organization and what makes sense, given the work that that individual does,
[00:16:13] Lisa: Well, it reminds me of, you know, like some companies had great success with implementing dress codes that were basically dressed for your day.
[00:16:20] Tara: right? Same concept.
[00:16:21] Lisa: Yeah. Yeah. And I think there's, yeah, because then you're treating people like adults. So I think there's a lot of value to that. And certainly, you know, where it doesn't work is perhaps where leaders haven't been supported enough in terms of how to manage those conversations.
Right. And how not to ignore if somebody is taking advantage and so on. And
it sounds like
you've done
[00:16:41] Tara: We're taking their own personal preference. Cause you know, some leaders have this out of sight out of mind approach. So they're, you know, there's an onus on leader to make sure the accountabilities are clear, you're staying connected. So it does put some onus on leadership To be good at their job.
I think you, it's funny, you referred to the dress code. I think that.
was such a big turning point in companies in terms of a cultural signal of, do what makes sense. And I think we're doing more and more of. in the, in the big corporate environments, like what makes sense? You're adults, we trust you.
Where do we need some guard rails and where do we absolutely.
not need guardrails? And I think the dress code, when we look back at it, I can't believe it lasted as long as it did.
[00:17:25] Lisa: Oh, when I think about back in the day and actually have, you know, being given, I. Owned policy and procedures at one point. And, and, you know, being told, okay, we got to redo this dress code policy. I'm like we do. Okay. I wasn't part of HR at the time, but I just remember really struggling with it. Cause it just felt so big brother didactic, the way it was currently written.
Right. And it was trying to convince like, can we, can we build in a little bit of a little bit of trust here,
[00:17:52] Tara: Can I name it? No, I don't think it exists as a policy. Right. It's just gone by the way of the Dodo of it. So it's like, see that evolution in human capital practice on things like, what do we actually need policies around they're far and few between it's now sort of, principles based. How do we work together in this new invention? And a lot of cultural symbols, right? So what are the, you know, what's the cultural traits for the organization? How do we demonstrate those? How do we role model those and set up peer to peer expectations versus a policy from on high
[00:18:25] Lisa: Yeah, I think that's. Really important, like you used the term guard rails earlier. Like sometimes you do need sort of like, you need some parameters, guardrails in place for people to understand, but generally fewer policies are better, you know? Because people aren't gonna really read them anyways.
Right. So it's like, what's appropriate. Let's like, let's talk through what's what's appropriate. What's going to work here. What's the impact. So th this makes me think of our, our, our earlier. camera conversation where, you know, I know the, ATB has been acknowledged as one of the greatest workplaces a few times, including just 20, 21 and you know, really wonderful accomplishment.
And you said to me, something surprising, which was now I'm, I'm here to, to break that. yet Exactly. I know. I know. So I thought it was really, really fascinating what you shared and I was hoping you could tell the audience.
[00:19:17] Tara: sure. I'll even go back to my interview. So when I was meeting with Curtis stain, she was a wonderful CEO. And he was talking about how proud he was at these employee engagement numbers. And we were working with Aon Hewitt at the time where we're 92% best in class. I came from an organization that was.
The sixties and we thought we were doing pretty okay. And I'm like, well, there's nowhere for me to go, but down here, Curtis. And I'm like, how do you feel about that number? Is there such thing as too high? And he's like, well, why don't you get under the covers on that one? And that's what I, that's what I did.
I think you know, Great. Well, it is a great company first off that has not changed. I hope to goodness they don't break that. I said I was never going to work for a bank again. And the only reason I'm here is because of this culture that is so caring and high learning and just transparent and just not about the bottom line in terms of where organizations I've come from, this is about.
Back and making the province stronger, better, healthier. It's a wonderful purpose and mandate. So that's always going to make it a great place to be. I think there, what I've been tasked to do is if the employees are so engaged, why are, client sentiment scores not equally as high? And why are our profits not equally as high?
Because I've always been told and believed through my studies that high employee engaged. Equals high performance. And we weren't seeing that there was no correlation. It just intuitively it makes sense though. Like the employees, like the work they do and the company that they do at, for that they're going to lean in.
So we think engagement even in and of itself isn't good enough. It has to be, but are we focused on the rates? And are we organized around what matters? It's not just about what can we do for you, but how can we create an environment where you're very successful? You understand what success looks like?
You are given what you need from your leadership team in terms of coaching and feedback to develop the career of your dreams, and yet make sure we're all clear. On what we need to be delivering. And I think it was that latter part that was missing. So we got much more disciplined around the performance system in the organization.
Making sure that there's some discipline around, you know, that contracting between leaders and team members on what are you responsible for? What does good look like? Let's have the ongoing feedback hold your peers accountable for that. Good. So it can't just be. It's a great place to work because team members are happy.
It has to be a great place to work because team members are happy having the careers of their lives, contributing to the client experience and the greater good of the province. So it's just a higher order that we're going after now. We're not giving away how great we were. We're just, we're going to shooting for the stars next.
Yeah. this will, this will be the company that figures it out for.
[00:22:13] Lisa: Yeah. So, really, really fascinating stuff. I had this conversation earlier, the network acquaintance, who who's, you know, it was talking about just the millions of dollars wasted on engagement, you know, when it. What, where he was coming from is, you know, from the perspective of, if it's simply leads to happiness and, oh, there's a lot of free pizza around here or whatever it is, you know, he, acknowledged that he was, he was a bit skeptical about it.
And, kind of trying to challenge it in general, but but it sounds like what you've done is it isn't so much about taking that old adage, that customer, that the employee experience drives the customer experience. I mean, Richard Branson goes on and on about that, you know, Virgin airlines, for instance, I've often said that myself and I firmly believe it.
It sounds like you've, you've kept that in the mix. And you've made sure the employee experience is more robust, that it's moved beyond a happiness meter and into a clarity of expectations. You know, like there's, there's more in there around why is it important that you have a great experience here
at.
[00:23:13] Tara: it's kind, if I, if I, you know, compare to the experience, I want our clients to have we're focused on not necessarily what our team members want, but what they need. And what they deserve. And when I think of the clients we serve, what they want from their financial institution, isn't necessarily what they need.
And we need to serve them to that higher order, which is to make sure they have financial security to make sure that they are informed of the opportunities and options. And they may come in for one thing, but our job is to make, you know, create clarity. And improve that experience, not just give them exactly what they came in for, hopefully something better.
And sometimes, maybe the answer they weren't expecting or didn't want right away. And I think that happens with our team members too, we've been focused a lot this year on feedback. Feedback is a gift campaign. Because you know, nobody gives you feedback if they're not well-intended.
Right. You didn't like somebody you're not going to give them. This is a well intention. I want you to do better so that you can do better for our clients. You can do better for a company. It's all in that same thing. It's not just about everybody feeling comfortable all the time. Sometimes it's about a bit of discomfort to sort of rise to the levels of performance.
We think we can.
[00:24:30] Lisa: So I, I appreciate you bringing in the customer experience. You know, as an example, because it reminded me way, way back. I remember doing a certification. I used to teach a course called achieving extraordinary customer relations. It was through achieved global and then became cassette and so on.
Anyway, one of the key pieces in that program, some listeners may remember it as well. It was really, really well done was the customer report card. And how, if you've got an. Kids in school, a, B, C, D E that, you know, clients come in, if you just kind of meet all of their basic wants as outlined or, or requirements, it's a C on the customer report card.
But when you give them something a little more, that they didn't anticipate, but that they were like, oh yeah, I did need and want that. It could be a B, and maybe even an a yeah,
[00:25:18] Tara: I think that you are HR professionals to our business partners that are lined up with our various business leader. That's the expectation there not just to do with the business leader, thinks that they should do, but it's to come to the table with insight and opportunity that the business leader doesn't have to.
Right. They're busy making money. How do we come to the table with insight so that their biggest resource is working efficiently and effectively. So whether that's insight, whether that's training, whether that's performance, whether that's just data that informs, Hey, there's an issue.
Here are some leading indicators that we need to get ahold of. And like that's, that's a business partner.
[00:25:57] Lisa: Well, it is, is it's working at a strategic level. It's, it's earning the right to be at the table and it's not about being an order taker right. In, in that regard. So,
[00:26:07] Tara: yeah.
we're all at the table now. Lisa, that's the best thing that came out of the pandemic. I feel the loudest. I really feel the love for
[00:26:15] Lisa: Oh, that's wonderful. So when you think about what's coming up for you and for ATB, you know, there's, so much, we don't know what the new normal is going to be. What's your biggest opportunity that you're looking forward to.
[00:26:28] Tara: Yeah. I mean, I'm S I'm scared on all sides of this opportunity, but that's probably the workforce composition change in the skills change that we're going to.
see over the next several years. And we've been talking about this for a long time, but I think the pandemic really accelerated a lot of companies, including ATB to move much quicker on their digital agenda.
So now we're, you know, we're like, oh, we know we have gaps, but we have time. And we're like, oh, we don't have time. So it's how do we get the right people with the right skills on the right problems? And those people might not even be full-timers like, how do we. Create this permeable cell around us.
So we can bring in different talent when we need it really quickly and easily too. So there's this huge challenge just around talent. we're competing for a lot of the same hot skills, regardless of what industry you're in. Even if your industry and your company's business model is staying the same, how that work gets done is going to require new skills.
I mean, a lot of what we're seeing and I'm seeing in real life, as Well, as in literature, we're talking 20 to 50% of skillset changes for the average employer over 10 years or the average employee over 10 years, that's a mountain to climb. You know, what's our responsibility as employers. What's the affordability.
If we don't do some of this work ourselves there's not enough to go around in the, in the labor pool. So we're going to have to do something with that. So the whole talent management opportunity, I think it's huge and exciting.
[00:28:06] Lisa: Well, yeah. And it's sometimes when there's so much potential, it's scary.
[00:28:11] Tara: Sure,
[00:28:12] Lisa: Right. It's
[00:28:14] Tara: sure.
[00:28:15] Lisa: So how do you think you are going to get at that? Like, like, you know, the beautiful thing is, is that you have, all of HR under your purview, so you can kind of, I'm sure you're starting to think about, okay, how can I use all these different leavers to crack that nut?
[00:28:29] Tara: Yeah.
Also, I'll give you my answer in a linear way, but I'll tell you, we haven't gotten there in a linear way. Our first step is. We've just been really digging into what do we have? Like what do we have, let's go under the covers. What skills do we have in this organization? We've done some job architecture work.
We've done just some skills inventorying work. Our plan is to do a full job architecture by the end of fiscal year 20. To really streamline the roles and the skills so that we can really ring fence what we've got. Simultaneously along with that, we've been doing strategic workforce planning with our business leaders on what do we need?
So simple, right? What do we have? What do we need? And I know I won't surprise anybody in HR when I say this, but business leaders don't know. Right. Like, it's hard to forecast out three to five years and know what's my business going to look like and what are some of those new skills? So some of the work we've been doing is bringing in experts from human capital firms or, you know, practitioners from other organizations that are further along the journey than us.
So we've got some great partners. You know, I hope that standard bank doesn't mind the shout-out lovely partner standard bank, South Africa. Regional bank, huge compared to us, but they're probably five years ahead of us on the transformation. So we're always looking to them and getting under their covers.
What skills do you have? How is that different than ours? So we're, you know, we're looking at the industry, but we're also looking at other companies so that we can create. You know, here's what we have. Here's what we need. And now we're in the midst of, okay, well, how are we going to get for me to be? And that's a big gap.
You know, the gaps bigger in different parts of the organization. So in our, you know, in our tech space, we've, huge gaps because of. The skills, and the products in there, like they're coming out of date in a couple of years. So by the time we figure out what we need, they're already onto the next thing.
But just even being able to declare how big the gap is, has felt pretty rewarding. Even though it is a knot in my stomach most days, but now we can pragmatically make some decisions about, okay, well what's priority for us based on the strategy we have ahead of us. not only a capital investment, but just capacity of the organization to make some of those shifts, how much are we willing to up-skill?
So if somebody comes in that they only have 50% of the skills needed for their next role. Are we going to do that? Like, what's our tipping point for what we're going to buy and what we're going to build. Where do we borrow? Lots of focus lately on how do you just create that? Permeable in and out for some, some fluid workforce to join our organization.
And yeah, so that sounds really linear. And he said, no, we have no what you need. Write a plan. Yeah. It's like spaghetti noodles in there and we're doing some things that I call. Some are really obvious. Like, let's just do this. Nobody's going to doubt that we need data competency and digital literacy. Like some of those things let's just go after it while we're figuring out some of the more nuanced future skills.
But yeah, that's some of what we've been tackling for sure.
[00:31:33] Lisa: Very interesting. I appreciate you sharing, sharing that whole approach and something that stood out there for me too, is the idea. how you've partnered with, other companies that are further ahead, like, like standard bank and, and, you know, I think it's great to give the shout out because I think that that is an under utilized approach in business in general.
Like it's something that I talk about with, you know, I serve talent management leaders and in general, and. I remember being in the role myself for so many years, you you're so busy, you've got so much on the go that it's easy to sort of be an island, right. And forget, you know, there's all these other people that you can draw on who may be further along or just, or at the same place, even in, it's just a sounding board in a way to puzzle through together.
So it's, it's interesting to hear you doing it at, at this kind of.
[00:32:19] Tara: I think even part of.
the business strategy, we're seeing a lot more partnership opportunities with business to business to solve things. I think it's feels like that's where industry is going to some extent and you know, it's very collegial and we're not in competition, obviously we're not in South Africa, but I don't even know who our competition is anymore from a talent perspective.
But yeah, there's always been situated. I've found for HR practitioners to get together and share and learn and Yeah.
To be able to look in somebody else's rear view mirror. That's a gift.
[00:32:56] Lisa: It is, it really is. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That's huge. And to take, take that time to sort of be curious and lean into their experience. Right? Well, so we're coming near the end of our conversation here. So I'd love to ask you a couple of other questions. One would be, you know, you've got this really beautiful career, you know, so many different experiences in there.
When you look back, what's the biggest lesson that you. You've personally learned and hold to be true.
[00:33:24] Tara: Oh, so many lessons leads,
[00:33:27] Lisa: I know down. Yeah, sure.
[00:33:31] Tara: boil it down, go for it. There's nothing that. I often say, you know, HR has a bit of a different animal. Everything that you do is enabling and helpful. The worst thing we can do is picked the least important, but we're never going to do anything super wrong, right? Like everything we do. So just go for it.
one of the women on my team progress, not perfection, always go for that. And I don't know, follow your gut a little bit. I think I was having a conversation with my coach this morning. So to my fellow HR practitioners, we too should be coached. This is the first time I've had a professional coach and, yeah, just that reflection and time to sort of reflect really important.
Sometimes go slow to go fast.
[00:34:18] Lisa: Absolutely. I mean, I'm a coach myself, but I always always have a coach, both a personal and business because it ensures that I'm going to. Keep that time, that appointment with myself to think through and, you know, think out loud and, and make plans and make sure that they're realistic and relevant stick to them.
So I appreciate where you're coming from that reflective capability, because it's easy when you're going fast. Right. You've got a lot of stuff on the go. It's easy to let that sort of be the thing that slow.
[00:34:46] Tara: One of the things I, I think is different now too, for HR professionals and leaders in general is I think we used to be experts and then we sort of became masters. I'm not an expert or a master. Well, maybe there's a couple where I have deeper spikes of expertise than another's, but things are moving so fast.
So just a reliance on the leadership around me and the team around me to bring their their full selves and their, you know, their knowledge to the table and trust in that, because there's No way the world is way too complicated these days to have the right answer for everything. So sometimes, honestly, my best answer.
To stand back and just watch to see what everyone else is doing. Cause they, they come up with some amazing things.
[00:35:29] Lisa: No harm in that you don't have to have it all figured out at all times. Yeah. That's really, really good advice. So last thing, any books or resources, podcasts that you've been listening to lately that you'd love to share?
[00:35:42] Tara: Oh, gosh, I don't really pick, how do I pick I'm a big Berson fan. I'll give that a shout out. So anything Josh has come out with, whether it's publications or podcasts, I'm all over that. Bernay brown. I don't know. Maybe I'm working on the softer side of leadership and the softer side. There we go.
She's speaking to me lately.
And then just given and I'm not sure why I didn't have this depth and it wasn't as it. I don't know why it wasn't in my line of sight, but I've been doing lots of learning in the indigenous space since I've joined Alberta. So indigenous. And just, you know, a deeper understanding.
I just took the course through the U of a and UFC in terms of indigenous Canada. So really getting into some of the diversity and inclusion components and how do we service our clients in some of these markets? And in turn, how do we create an internal environment? But a lot of focus there. And then some, just some business books on trusted advisors when I'm reading at the moment.
So as the organization is moving into sort of a higher order advice, this is, I don't know, I'm reading it through the lens of the business, but it's a great HR book in terms of how do you show up as an advisor with your partners? So it's really translated. Well, it's probably sitting here. This was the last one.
[00:36:57] Lisa: So it's called the trusted advisors
title.
[00:37:00] Tara: Yeah, trusted advisor, David master, Charles Green and Robert golfer. And then John Kotter, hilarious. John Cotter never goes away here. he
[00:37:08] Lisa: No, he doesn't.
[00:37:09] Tara: leading change in a sense of urgency, they just HBR just re-released it.
[00:37:13] Lisa: Okay. And I'll put those, those links in the, in the show notes, because those are some great resources to share with people. Wonderful. Well, thank you very, very much for taking the time to, to come on the show and speak with me. I know there's tremendous value here, so I really
appreciate it.
[00:37:28] Tara: no, thanks for the invite. And the conversation's always great to connect with folks.
