LM Ep 25
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[00:00:00] How can we truly support high-potential talent in organizations? What do they struggle with most? And what can we do about it? Tune into this episode to learn about the leading edge program design in place for high potential groups at SunLife Canada. Even if you are from a smaller organization that is not as far along on the talent management maturity continuum, you will hear some valuable tips that are realistic for where you are.
[00:02:03] My guest is Jillian comp-sci. Who's the director of talent programs for SunLife. Julian supports high potential talent through transformational programs, offered to new graduates and experienced professionals within the organization. She is also a certified coach and brings this skillset to her work.
[00:02:20] Every day. I had the pleasure of working through my coach training practicum with Jillian several years back, and it was a pleasure to spend some one-on-one time with her today. I know you'll enjoy this conversation. Thanks for listening.
[00:02:31] gillian-kufsky_recording-1_2022-01-20--t03-31-00pm--61157a395affa4006d0cfc64--lollyg: Hi, Jillian. Welcome to the show. I'm so pleased to have you joined me today.
[00:02:40] gillian-kufsky_recording-1_2022-01-20--t03-31-00pm--guest26328--gillian-: Hi, Lisa. Thanks for inviting me. This is.
[00:02:42] gillian-kufsky_recording-1_2022-01-20--t03-31-00pm--61157a395affa4006d0cfc64--lollyg: My pleasure. So I thought we could start off perhaps by you sharing a little bit about yourself and what you do in your role as director of talent programs at SunLife.
[00:02:52] gillian-kufsky_recording-1_2022-01-20--t03-31-00pm--guest26328--gillian-: Yeah. I'd love to, so, I, in my role I really oversee sort of the talent the high potential talent programs. So we run two kind of signature programs, one for people, right out of university, which is a lot of fun and high energy. And another one that's very close to my heart, which is for experienced professionals.
[00:03:12] And I say, it's close to my heart because I was in that program and it's what led me to my job today. And I absolutely love it. and that is really a two year program and it's, experience-based where you can try out different things and different projects and different networks that you would never get the opportunity to do in your day to day.
[00:03:33] gillian-kufsky_recording-1_2022-01-20--t03-31-00pm--61157a395affa4006d0cfc64--lollyg: So I'm already drooling at the thought. It must've been a fabulous experience to be a part of. let's go down that road right now, actually. Cause you've got my curiosity peaked. So when you went through the program, was it sort of a similar setup with two years?
[00:03:49] gillian-kufsky_recording-1_2022-01-20--t03-31-00pm--guest26328--gillian-: Yeah, it was a two year program. The, the bones were the same. And what I, part of what I love about my job is that there's so much opportunity for. Test and learn for it's like a little laboratory. We can try things out. We get feedback from our participants. If they work, we make it part of the program.
[00:04:08] If they don't, we tweak it and, and continue on. So, two years and the beauty of it is that you have up to 20% of your time to dedicate towards. An experience or to your development, really as a whole, you have 20%, one day a week that you can spend on your development. And so, I'll admit I didn't get.
[00:04:33] When I first started out, so I didn't understand the concept and it might've been that I was spoiled in my day to day job because I had such a rich diversity. I was doing sort of a strategic initiatives, chief of staff jobs. So not involved in HR. Totally business focused, loved it. Got to meet with leaders, got to meet with different people.
[00:04:56] So it was spoiled. But I didn't, I didn't click for me how special this was to be able to focus on me, to be able to say, you know, what do you want?
[00:05:08] gillian-kufsky_recording-1_2022-01-20--t03-31-00pm--61157a395affa4006d0cfc64--lollyg: Right. Well, it is, it is kind of a different approach, right? Because if I think about, you know, my 25 years plus in corporate, it was for the most part, you get to go to this training or get to go to a conference or something like that, you know, or it might be something. And there were different programs, you know, that, that I developed.
[00:05:24] I know that we're more holistic, like what you're talking about. Certainly. But, you know, it is interesting to say you've also got like this, this gift of a day a week or the equivalent of, to spend, it sounds like, however you want that almost might be a bit alarming for some people. These are high, you know, high achievers, high potentials.
[00:05:45] So what's, what's kind of the framework you put around it to help them, or how do they wrap their heads around it? You had trouble with it.
[00:05:52] gillian-kufsky_recording-1_2022-01-20--t03-31-00pm--guest26328--gillian-: Yeah,
[00:05:52] So, the, you know, the penny didn't drop for me until sort of the moment of clarity was there was a lot of change in the organization and I realized, okay, I can't just sail along. I need to figure out what I want and focus on me. And when I opened my eyes like that, I saw what I wanted, which was the person who was leading the program.
[00:06:18] I had been saying in my head, oh, this is, this is a neat idea. Like, I'd love to do what you do, but then it said, okay, how do I get from where I am? In a business focus, strategic initiatives job with a background in corporate communications. How do I get there to an HR role focusing on talent, talent development.
[00:06:38] And so I had wanted to do coaching for a long time. I'd seen it, I'd seen the power of it, but what I realized is I could use this program to spend my time coaching my peers. In the program to get my coaching hours, I just really made it my own. And so what we say to people, and what's really challenging for people to wrap their heads around is two questions.
[00:07:04] And the first question is what do you aspire to? What do you want to do next? And I've stopped saying, what do you want to be when you grow up? Because.
[00:07:14] No, you're laughing. So you've got thoughts on that too. That's too big a question, but you know, what do you aspire to next? What's the next move? What's the next direction?
[00:07:23] And you, well, you know what, probably Lisa, you wouldn't be surprised to hear that high potential high performing directors. So mid-career directors can easily get to where they are without being asked that question.
[00:07:41] gillian-kufsky_recording-1_2022-01-20--t03-31-00pm--61157a395affa4006d0cfc64--lollyg: Yeah, it's it's absolutely. I see it all the time with the people I train and coach for sure.
[00:07:47] gillian-kufsky_recording-1_2022-01-20--t03-31-00pm--guest26328--gillian-: Right. You're tapped on the shoulder. You're graded this. Do you want to take this opportunity? You you'll. You did amazing. We've got the next thing for you. Tap, tap, tap, tap, tap. And it can lead to a place where, you know, you're, you're doing great work. You're killing it, but it's not fulfilling. And that's not a sustainable place. So we asked that question, you know what, what's next? What do you want to do to focus that energy, to focus that direction on how you're going to spend that time. And then the other thing that we have to instill in people, which is surprisingly difficult, and I would say. You know, conservatively, 30% of people do never wrap their heads around it. They'll go through the whole program and not actually internalize this message.
[00:08:30] gillian-kufsky_recording-1_2022-01-20--t03-31-00pm--61157a395affa4006d0cfc64--lollyg: And how many people are actually in the program at a time.
[00:08:33] gillian-kufsky_recording-1_2022-01-20--t03-31-00pm--guest26328--gillian-: we do two cohorts at, at a time of 20 people each. So that's, we can keep it intimate enough that you get. Connections. But broad enough that we have enough people.
[00:08:42] So you've got people from across the organization, you get that crisscross of learning. But the, the thing that we try to get people to believe is that it's okay to develop themselves that it's okay to invest in them. The whole reason the program is by nomination. The whole reason the program exists is for them to invest in themselves, but everything up until then or much up until then, unless they've had some exceptional leaders and we have some exceptional leaders that sunlight is really focused on your output, what are you doing?
[00:09:18] And what we want to get them to shift to is who are you being.
[00:09:22] gillian-kufsky_recording-1_2022-01-20--t03-31-00pm--61157a395affa4006d0cfc64--lollyg: Well, that is a really refreshing, you know, question that you just asked, right. Because, you know, there's that, that adage that you and I, cause we went to school together, Adler coaching school, and that's where we met. We'd been exposed to this concept of. We're human beings, not human doings.
[00:09:37] And it's not just what you do. Most of us are really, really brought up and wired to, to move into action constantly versus thinking about, well, how do we want to be? How do we want to show up? How do we want to. Experience life. How do we want others to experience us? Like, it goes so far beyond the actual doing of the task of the project, and yet, and yet there's no focus in, in most organizations on that as people come up.
[00:10:04] gillian-kufsky_recording-1_2022-01-20--t03-31-00pm--guest26328--gillian-: Yeah, I use an analogy and maybe it's a clunky one. So if you have some suggestions What I say is, so I work, I've worked in professional services and financial services. So, in those types of business, like we don't, you know, if you were working in a factory, right. If you made widgets then you would take the time.
[00:10:25] To upgrade your machines, right? Every couple of years you would invest in your technology. You invest in your machines and you upgrade them so that the widgets they produce would become better and better and better. That's just what you have to do in manufacturing. We don't make widgets. We don't have big machines, we have people. And so it's taking that time, that investment in upgrading yourself so that what you do produce. Be it, widget or a report or an idea or a new product or the leadership of an entire team is at a higher level. You got to upgrade. And so sometimes that helps people understand and sometimes people are like, wait, what's that about widgets?
[00:11:09] So, it's just really trying to get people. To accept that one. It's okay to take the time for this and two that they are worth it, that they merit that time. And if you get sent to see me and you get sent to see my team, the organization is telling you loud and clear your worth at we're investing in you, but you have to invest in yourself.
[00:11:32] gillian-kufsky_recording-1_2022-01-20--t03-31-00pm--61157a395affa4006d0cfc64--lollyg: And you have to believe,
[00:11:34] gillian-kufsky_recording-1_2022-01-20--t03-31-00pm--guest26328--gillian-: you
[00:11:34] have
[00:11:34] to
[00:11:34] gillian-kufsky_recording-1_2022-01-20--t03-31-00pm--61157a395affa4006d0cfc64--lollyg: believe that it's, it is worth it to be invested in. So that is a real. Big number, especially if I think about 40 people going through at once. And there's 30% of those, right. Are never going to wrap their head around, capitalized on this fact that they're able, they're permitted, they're given license to spend up to 20% of their, paid time on their own development.
[00:11:55] So for you, you went and got your coaching certified. Which is fabulous. And I know that you've applied that in your role. So we'll have to talk about that as well. What do other people do? What are some examples and how do you help them figure out the 70% that do choose to really run with it? How do you help them figure out what's available to them?
[00:12:17] gillian-kufsky_recording-1_2022-01-20--t03-31-00pm--guest26328--gillian-: Yeah. And so, for the, the 30%, they'll often step into it. And so another thing we say is you will get out of this program, what you put in. You know, that is a as a universal truth for a lot of things and it definitely applies for development. So what the difference is is that the people who get it and they kind of wrap their heads around that they're worth it.
[00:12:43] They are much more focused on. What am I going to invest my time in? Because yes, you have 20%, but you still have your responsibilities of your role, right. That doesn't go away. That's still there. So it's saying, all right, my time is precious. I need to get laser focused on how I want to do this exploration, where I want to invest my time.
[00:13:09] And so we start with development plan. So it's really based on and to, to inputs to that, we use some different assessment tools and that's to help them say, okay, what am I interested in? Where? Cause you know, you've got sort of the three domains that come together. It's what are you interested in?
[00:13:31] What are your skills and experiences and what are the opportunities. The external opportunities in the marketplace or in the, you know, the company marketplace or where we're expanding. People usually spend most of their time on the external part. What are the opportunities? And that's an important part because you've got to understand them, but if you don't start with who you are and what you want and what makes you tick, then you're really going to be missing out on finding. The right place for you in those external opportunities, but also you might really be narrowing what's possible because when you start and you know, you know, this there's a, there's a job title, but what you actually do in your role, what those components of a role are, can be so universally applicable.
[00:14:21] And so when we start with interests, I always, you know, we will have a one-on-one coaching session afterwards and it's digging deeper and it's saying, okay, so you've written you know, you've written startup, like I like to be in a startup environment and we've got lots of, sort of, startup initiatives happening in sunlight.
[00:14:39] There's some cool digital stuff happening, but what is it about that, that you like, take it a step. What are the actions you're doing? Are you working with a dynamic team? Are you starting from a blank piece of paper? What is it? And so when you really break down those interests, you start to be able to see, okay, this could happen in the startup area, but this could also happen in this established operations area.
[00:15:04] That's going through maybe a transformation. And so it, it narrows bizarrely and narrows it, but it also broadens it.
[00:15:12] gillian-kufsky_recording-1_2022-01-20--t03-31-00pm--61157a395affa4006d0cfc64--lollyg: Yes.
[00:15:13] Yeah, I see that. That's a, that's an excellent description. And I think it's so important that you're guiding them through this thought process because, you know, it's, it's deliberate, it's intentional because let's face it. Corporate life is crazy busy, right? Like it's, it's actually, it's over the top in a lot of cases.
[00:15:31] Right? There's a lot of burnout. We, we hear constantly about the great resignation and you know, or the great migration depending on, on who you're reading. and people it's, it's almost. You know, you're choosing to help people be deliberate in, in, in w you know, what really lights them up and what energizes them versus waiting for an external you know, event like COVID and, and the fatigue and the isolation.
[00:15:55] We've all been feeling for two years, you know, to be the driving force that, that has you take pause. Oh my God. Do I really want to be doing this anymore? Cause that's, that's really what's underneath this great resignation. Are people choosing to move and seek greener pastures? So this, this deliberate approach is really, really interesting.
[00:16:12] So how does it, when you take such care with people and helping them think through about how they want to shape their careers and their work, what's been the impact on the organization. Talent-wise.
[00:16:23] gillian-kufsky_recording-1_2022-01-20--t03-31-00pm--guest26328--gillian-: Yeah.
[00:16:24] So it's a, it's a great question. And there's, you know, there's levels of impact that we look at. One is the individuals who are in our program, right. And what that means for their career. And so we've seen sort of, Increased movement throughout the organization. And so we measure it in two ways and both are great because we say this isn't promotion factory, right?
[00:16:48] We're not trying to, if that's not what you're ready for, what your next step is right now, we would never force someone into the next level because you have to be ready for it. And you have to understand it. That's a whole other ball game of responsibilities. And so part of it is you get to see what those responsibilities are and experience and say, is this right for me?
[00:17:11] Does this align with my values, my interests, et cetera, and B, I love the word she is intentional about it. So we measure on promotion. So how many people are moved up, but also lateral moves. So are we moving great talent around the organization? Because having that internal mobility. Again, you're breaking down silos.
[00:17:32] You're cross-pollinating ideas. And, you know, we like to think that the people in our program, after going through our program have now just through osmosis, because we also pair them with a senior leader sponsor that they work with. For the two years we bring in speakers, we, you know, the regular program, talent program, a shtick.
[00:17:54] I won't go into it. But through that, that we raise the bar on their leadership. And so then we look at, okay, what is the span of control that our participants and alumni have within the organization. And it's actually pretty high because some going to operations areas that have big teams. So we're, upping the leadership bar across the organization.
[00:18:16] And then the other way we look at it is for those senior leaders sponsors or for the leaders who sponsor the experiences. So who say, Hey, I've got this cool project on my team. Do you, you know, like, is there anybody in the program who wants to take it on? You know, we want to investigate this new market.
[00:18:35] You don't need to be an actuary. You don't need to be XYZ. We want fresh. You know, or, or we're considering this new product or we want to totally revamp our people strategy in this, whatever it is. So the people who sponsor the leaders who sponsor those experiences, they get to see a whole fresh set of. And they get to, they would never have experienced this person previously. And it's hard for leaders. You don't necessarily, you know, we, we talk about corporate life is overwhelming and you don't have the time for everything you would like to do. They would love to be talent developers, but to go seek out that talent is, can be too time consuming.
[00:19:16] We deliver top talent into their teams and say, Experience like, how did it go? What do you think of this person? So, so there's a lot of different knock on effects that we, we keep in mind when we say what's the, what's the health of the program and what's the success of the program.
[00:19:32] gillian-kufsky_recording-1_2022-01-20--t03-31-00pm--61157a395affa4006d0cfc64--lollyg: Yeah, super helpful to understand, you know, you know, what you made me think of as you were, you were talking, there was, I remember this is going back a while. Probably 15 years or something, you know, when I was working in HR and we were charged with, with helping our clients you know, executives in the different groups, lines of business get talent profiles done, and so that we could load them into, and it was kind of clunky back then. It was, it was PeopleSoft and it was more sort of like a analog, like you type it in. And then if somebody had a need somewhere globally in the organization, you know, for somebody who had, it was based on experience and skill that people already had. So it was a way to, to look across the silos and the different verticals to say, oh, Jillian has already, oh my God, she, she has a background in HR, even though now she's in marketing.
[00:20:21] We, you know, maybe she could do this over in Singapore. Anyways. That was the idea behind it. But you know what it didn't take into account, which what you've described does is aspiration and interest, because right there, you're going to have built-in motivation and fit.
[00:20:37] gillian-kufsky_recording-1_2022-01-20--t03-31-00pm--guest26328--gillian-: yes.
[00:20:38] Yeah.
[00:20:39] Yeah. I couldn't agree more. And I, that is not an easy task and like, what you're talking about right. Is mapping talent and, and having that pool and what's available.
[00:20:49] gillian-kufsky_recording-1_2022-01-20--t03-31-00pm--61157a395affa4006d0cfc64--lollyg: get really utilized well enough probably. Yeah.
[00:20:52] gillian-kufsky_recording-1_2022-01-20--t03-31-00pm--guest26328--gillian-: It's so difficult and you know, now it's like hot skills and, and that kind of thing. but again, if you aren't matching, if you aren't considering what people want and some, and, and giving them the space to think about what they want and explore it a little bit, because, you know, back to back to my example I didn't know, my job exists. I didn't know that I could do what I do within a big organization. I didn't know that I could coach, I didn't know that I could creatively develop programs. I didn't know that I could facilitate, I didn't know that I could do all these aspects of a role. And then I saw it, I experienced it and I was like, That's for me.
[00:21:32] And so, you know, we're doing some cool stuff now. We've got gigs. So, you know, Workday has got the functionality to do gigs where you post like a project or. And so, you know, our program and it's, it's rolling out sort of, piece by piece. Cause it's, it's it's a big change. But our program kind of says, you know, we were doing gigs before they were cool.
[00:21:52] We just called them experiences. But there's so much value because like to do something that you can, you know, you can Think about something I think is the first step. Right. Just considering it then there's like that having a coffee chat or just talking about it and getting an idea of it.
[00:22:10] And then there's taking on an experience or a gig or a, a stretch assignment, whatever you want to call it. And wow. You know, the learning on each of those is just exponential. And the development, the flip side, right? So you're learning about you and your interests, but you're also gaining skills and experience in all of that.
[00:22:30] So, you know, getting out there and doing it is, is so important.
[00:22:35] gillian-kufsky_recording-1_2022-01-20--t03-31-00pm--61157a395affa4006d0cfc64--lollyg: Oh, well, it's the whole three east thing, right? Like, you know, they, the education experience exposure. So it's exposure to what's even possible and who's out there and what are the opportunities, experiences the doing? And then the education might be, you know, some actual, more formal training or mentoring and so on.
[00:22:52] Like, Back in the nineties. Oh my God. Being succonded for the first time. change in my life and my career permanently in a really good way. Right. And so it started with, you know, letting things happen to you, letting your career happen to you, you know, being tapped and then all of a sudden going, oh my God, look, what's possible here.
[00:23:10] And then really starting to take charge of my career. Well, you know, pretty early on when I think back you know, I was writing business cases about how I needed the next, you know, I was wanting to create this department and be the manager and all that, like, you know, really early on, but it was partly because of that initial secondment opportunity, you know, So it's really, really powerful because for so many people, like, you know, they balk at, what do you mean?
[00:23:34] I have a day, a week that I can do what I want to learn and, and grow and reflect and experiment. A lot of people just, they just get caught up. They're just kind of surviving versus thriving. Right. And getting through, it's not a bad thing necessarily, but there's not that kind of awareness.
[00:23:49] gillian-kufsky_recording-1_2022-01-20--t03-31-00pm--guest26328--gillian-: It's a, it's sort of, it's reactive, It's really reactive rather than, than intentional and proactive. Yeah, part of it is understanding is under, like, it kinds, it comes back to understanding you believing you're worth it. and then being intentional about how you spend your time and getting focused on prioritizing what's important.
[00:24:09] And if, if your development isn't important, then it's time to like, take a good hard look at what you are saying is very important. And, and is that sustaining?
[00:24:20] gillian-kufsky_recording-1_2022-01-20--t03-31-00pm--61157a395affa4006d0cfc64--lollyg: Yeah, you guys should, should like dig out those old. What were they clear? All commercials. I'm worth it as the poster kind of thing for the program, you know, something you said to me in the, in the green room, which I think is really, really important is this. You, you said it really, really well, and I don't want to take your words away, but it was around the idea that, you know, there's what leaders do and then there's how they are.
[00:24:43] Could you speak to that? Like what, you know, cause this program sounds like it supports this concept.
[00:24:48] gillian-kufsky_recording-1_2022-01-20--t03-31-00pm--guest26328--gillian-: Yeah. And, and again, it's around this mindset shift of becoming a leader, and I think it's, it's kind of a universal mind shift, set shift is early in our career. It really is our output. It's what we do. But as we move up and as we become more senior. You know, what you actually do and produce becomes so much less important and who you are, becomes more and more important and what capabilities and those leadership those leadership factors that you can demonstrate to other people and that's, that's being as opposed to doing.
[00:25:25] And so again, the, the program helps people understand that. You know, sometimes we have to invest in ourselves. If we want to get to that level of leadership, where we are being who we truly can be.
[00:25:40] gillian-kufsky_recording-1_2022-01-20--t03-31-00pm--61157a395affa4006d0cfc64--lollyg: Yeah, such an important statement, you know, as you move, move up, who you are, becomes more important.
[00:25:46] gillian-kufsky_recording-1_2022-01-20--t03-31-00pm--guest26328--gillian-: Yeah.
[00:25:47] And, and not to say, you know, at, at more junior levels, it's not important, like invest in yourself at all levels. I don't want to kind of say that it's just workhorses, but it really is like a lot of a more junior role will be output will be what you're doing.
[00:26:03] gillian-kufsky_recording-1_2022-01-20--t03-31-00pm--61157a395affa4006d0cfc64--lollyg: well, your impact isn't as
[00:26:05] gillian-kufsky_recording-1_2022-01-20--t03-31-00pm--guest26328--gillian-: Yeah.
[00:26:05] gillian-kufsky_recording-1_2022-01-20--t03-31-00pm--61157a395affa4006d0cfc64--lollyg: right? Like the people you touch, like the ripple effect isn't as broad typically.
[00:26:10] gillian-kufsky_recording-1_2022-01-20--t03-31-00pm--guest26328--gillian-: Yeah.
[00:26:10] and it can be really, it can be a real challenge for people who have defined themselves by what they produce to make that jump into leadership, because then all of a sudden you're not doing anymore and that's hard. Right, because how do I measure my worth? If, if I'm not, if I'm not the one putting together the PowerPoint presentation or delivering it, or if I'm not the one who is checking all the numbers, you know, to make sure that they're right, that go into the final report.
[00:26:40] and so that's kind of like a shift in identity almost that, that takes some time and takes again confidence to say. I don't need to be doing this and trust in my team that they can do this and that I'm still valuable. And I'm still making a worthwhile contribution to the organization, even though it isn't in the form of deliverables.
[00:27:04] gillian-kufsky_recording-1_2022-01-20--t03-31-00pm--61157a395affa4006d0cfc64--lollyg: Constantly. Yeah, because there is, I mean, we do have to be. Recognize that leaders today, they don't just watch widget makers. Right? Like they're not just like the supervisory role looking down from on high. I mean, they all have their own projects. It just a fact of the matter. So I see that though. I think, it's a very real thing that you carrying your own projects as well as leading a team at the same time.
[00:27:26] I think it's a slippery slope that some leaders can start to slide into. I know I have certainly like, I can't delegate this stuff. There's just no time to delegate. Right. And, and you, when you get really, really busy and a bit overwhelmed, it's easy to do that. What do you think about that?
[00:27:41] Like, like the fact that leaders, they do have their own stuff, but how much do you think that really should be proportionately of the stuff that they do need to deliver?
[00:27:50] gillian-kufsky_recording-1_2022-01-20--t03-31-00pm--guest26328--gillian-: Well, and then, you know, we say leaders in this blanket statement, what is the team look like? What's the structure? Is it resourced properly? But what I would say for me, that kind of acid test is, is could you get this done through others or are you choosing to hold onto it for something, some other deeper reason?
[00:28:12] So are you choosing to hold onto it because you like doing the work, which is valid, right. We're doing work is fun. Like I love producing things.
[00:28:21] gillian-kufsky_recording-1_2022-01-20--t03-31-00pm--61157a395affa4006d0cfc64--lollyg: With the detail,
[00:28:22] gillian-kufsky_recording-1_2022-01-20--t03-31-00pm--guest26328--gillian-: Yeah, right. And or are you doing it because you don't trust or are you doing it because you don't have time to explain it and then digging in a little bit deeper.
[00:28:32] What, where did that go over? And so I think that's kind of the test to say, like, you may have a side project that's that doesn't involve any accountability on your team and it wouldn't be appropriate to delegate, but I would say maybe it's a stretch opportunity for somebody to get involved with. But I think it's, it's questioning really what the motivation is that you are doing again at the certain level that you're doing the work and not empowering.
[00:29:00] To get the work done. And that, that, that leadership has so much value in and of itself. and again, not easy to do and not an easy shift to make. but truly effective leaders can set that tone and, and help others get to the doing.
[00:29:16] gillian-kufsky_recording-1_2022-01-20--t03-31-00pm--61157a395affa4006d0cfc64--lollyg: yeah, facilitate that, right? Because that is the core role. I believe of leaders is to facilitate discovery, you know, by their teams to figure out, well, what do you know, people know what to do? They don't need to be told they might need some ideas, but they need somebody to partner with them. I mean, a leader doesn't have to be.
[00:29:34] You know that old word superior drives me crazy. You know, they're not superior they're, they're like elbow to elbow, really like we're partners. I play a different role from you as your leader in let's let me help you work through how you're going to approach this and what you think is the right way to do it.
[00:29:47] And, we both have a clear idea of the outcome ultimately versus me taking it all on.
[00:29:52] Right. And just having you do certain key things that I choose to, to,
[00:29:58] gillian-kufsky_recording-1_2022-01-20--t03-31-00pm--guest26328--gillian-: yeah,
[00:29:59] yeah. You know, seeing that, I love that seeing that big picture and being partners in it with different accountabilities, different roles. So.
[00:30:07] gillian-kufsky_recording-1_2022-01-20--t03-31-00pm--61157a395affa4006d0cfc64--lollyg: Yeah. Well, it's really fascinating hearing about this program. I'd love to dig into it even more. One question I have too is just, it's a SunLife is a really big organization. How many employees do you have currently?
[00:30:18] gillian-kufsky_recording-1_2022-01-20--t03-31-00pm--guest26328--gillian-: Globally lots. I should know that number in the Canadian business that I focus on is about 8,000.
[00:30:25] gillian-kufsky_recording-1_2022-01-20--t03-31-00pm--61157a395affa4006d0cfc64--lollyg: Yeah, so really significant. Yeah. So there's, this, this is a really fabulous program. What ideas do you have for people that, you know, leaders that are listening, talent management leaders that are working in smaller organizations, where they may not have quite the resources may not be as far along on the, on the continuum of, organizational effectiveness What would you suggest as a good place for them to start? If they don't have a fabulous program like this?
[00:30:49] gillian-kufsky_recording-1_2022-01-20--t03-31-00pm--guest26328--gillian-: That's a really good question. And I think it would start, and this sounds like an obvious answer, but get really clear on what do you want to accomplish. And so that would say, and that's maybe looking at what are our gaps. Because, or, you know, what are our opportunities, if you want to take the flip side of it, because there is so much you can do.
[00:31:15] And there are so many good ideas and there are so many books out there that will tell you, you know, this is the best idea. That is the best idea. And they're all amazing ideas, but what's right for a certain organization really needs to start with that organization. And so it's asking you working really closely with the business and the business leaders and bringing, you know, your people hat to the table to say, what, what would we want to, you know, I'll ask people sometimes, and it's a, you know, a classic coaching question, but like, if you could wake up tomorrow and one thing was different, what would that be? And that can be a great place to start sometimes because. You know, some people will say, oh well, we are like, all our people managers would, you know, have this capability. Okay. Well, w what makes you say that what's happening now and digging into there? Like, that can be a great question or something along those lines.
[00:32:10] But there's, I don't think there's a universal answer. As long as, you know, You care about business results and you care about the people who are driving those business results. Just asking the question and pulling those threads and it doesn't, you know, the right first thing, I just did air quotes.
[00:32:27] And I know there's a podcast, but I did that. There are so many right, right. Things that you could do, but it's choosing the one that you're going to do. And then focusing on. Until you accomplish what you want to accomplish or you're ready to pivot to the next thing.
[00:32:42] gillian-kufsky_recording-1_2022-01-20--t03-31-00pm--61157a395affa4006d0cfc64--lollyg: And know that eventually you're going to pivot. It's the idea of iteration. You know, I was talking with another guest about that yesterday when we were recording and I could totally get on my, on my soap box here, but this idea of you don't have to do it all by yourself. Like you're there to serve right into make sure that, you know, whatever you're developing as a talent leader in your case, it's talent, full talent programs that it meets people's needs and expectations.
[00:33:06] Well, often people don't know what they need or want. So your job is to facilitate that discovery and then, have a structured. Going back regularly saying, okay, so this is what, you know, we took it all. Here are some options, what are you thinking? Well, you know, what do we need to tweak?
[00:33:23] What else do we need to know about this? Right. And, and trust that it takes shape as you go along. Yeah. So, so it's it's yeah, I think it's, it's having faith that you will get it right. If you're asking lots of questions and you're engaging others right. Easily, you're not, it's not all by yourself that you have to make the decisions.
[00:33:40] gillian-kufsky_recording-1_2022-01-20--t03-31-00pm--guest26328--gillian-: and trying things, you know, that's, I, I mentioned earlier, what I love about our programs is it's a L it's a lab. And so try things and you do, they don't have to work. You know, success is not defined by set the something working the first time. So just, try it cause you can talk and plan.
[00:33:59] Till you're blue in the face, but you're going to get real results by trying.
[00:34:04] gillian-kufsky_recording-1_2022-01-20--t03-31-00pm--61157a395affa4006d0cfc64--lollyg: Yeah, absolutely. So there was another thing that we talked about earlier and it kind of, connects to different parts of our conversation, but you, you just read a book that you're now calling your new Bible, essentially.
[00:34:18] gillian-kufsky_recording-1_2022-01-20--t03-31-00pm--guest26328--gillian-: Yeah.
[00:34:19] gillian-kufsky_recording-1_2022-01-20--t03-31-00pm--61157a395affa4006d0cfc64--lollyg: essentially ism. Who's the author. Do you remember offhand?
[00:34:21] gillian-kufsky_recording-1_2022-01-20--t03-31-00pm--guest26328--gillian-: I actually have it like right beside me, like when I say it's my new Bible. So it's Greg McEwen. And he does, a podcast has, has other books, but yeah, it just really resonated for me and I, It resonated. I think also in the programs we do, and that is, you know, starting with your interests, starting with you, it's saying what's important, like to this, and it would apply again to that question you asked about for smaller businesses or any businesses, where do we start? Well, what's important. Because you could go in a million directions and you could start five projects at the same time and they could all have like, minimal to no impact or a negative impact because they're not resourced like they should, but if you chose one.
[00:35:07] And if you really, tried it out and pivoted and, and followed that you could make an impact in that area. but what's that one, it has to be aligned with what is essential, what's important to you? and to keep in mind when you say yes to a project or an initiative, you're saying no, To something else, because I know there are, schools of thought that would say, you know, things aren't finite and they are right.
[00:35:35] If you are saying yes to something you're saying no to something else. And maybe it's you're saying no to having your, even as a, as a talent professional to say no to having your evenings free, because you're trying to do too much and it's not. Or you don't have the resources to do it, or you're saying no to the employee experience because you're spreading the ideas too thin.
[00:35:55] So it's really saying what's important. Yes, I, I couldn't recommend it enough. What they that I think you will, you will appreciate. And I think a lot of people in, in talent and broader HR will appreciate is in the book, it mentions that the word priority. And so originally priority was never, never.
[00:36:17] There was no such word as priorities and you're laughing because now you'll be sitting in meetings and it's like, Okay.
[00:36:25] so our 12 priorities. No. So, it's something I would recommend picking up for, for life for home life, for work life for health. Develop talent as well. And helping them think about their work life.
[00:36:41] it's widely applicable.
[00:36:43] gillian-kufsky_recording-1_2022-01-20--t03-31-00pm--61157a395affa4006d0cfc64--lollyg: Yeah, well, I, I will make sure that I note that book essentialism in, in the show notes and another one too, that you made me think of, I'll pop it in there as well as the one thing by Gary Keller, which I've recommended before. I don't know if you're familiar with that one. It's it's not so much time management as, as productivity, so it's really around on a.
[00:37:01] It could be for the next hour for this Danny for this month, this quarter, this year, whatever you want. What is the one thing for the most essential thing that if I do it first and now all else that follows will be either easier or unnecessary.
[00:37:18] gillian-kufsky_recording-1_2022-01-20--t03-31-00pm--guest26328--gillian-: Yeah.
[00:37:18] gillian-kufsky_recording-1_2022-01-20--t03-31-00pm--61157a395affa4006d0cfc64--lollyg: And it's, it's powerful. The days. I am diligent. It's built into my agenda and I focus on my one thing. The one thing I'm going to make before I manage and deal with all the little nitty gritties, the easier stuff to get done so much more productive and, feeling of fulfillment by the end.
[00:37:33] It's really, really interesting.
[00:37:35] gillian-kufsky_recording-1_2022-01-20--t03-31-00pm--guest26328--gillian-: Yeah.
[00:37:36] gillian-kufsky_recording-1_2022-01-20--t03-31-00pm--61157a395affa4006d0cfc64--lollyg: It really works. So thank you so much, Jillian. What an interesting conversation. I, genuinely appreciate you sharing with us. Some of the detail around this, to your program and about your role. And I think there's been a lot of interesting food for thought that you've offered the audience.
[00:37:51] Thank you so much.
[00:37:52] gillian-kufsky_recording-1_2022-01-20--t03-31-00pm--guest26328--gillian-: Thank you, Lisa. Thanks for the invitation and the opportunity to chat. I miss you.
[00:37:56] gillian-kufsky_recording-1_2022-01-20--t03-31-00pm--61157a395affa4006d0cfc64--lollyg: Me too. I miss you too. It's been great to catch up. Thank you.
[00:37:59] gillian-kufsky_recording-1_2022-01-20--t03-31-00pm--guest26328--gillian-: Bye.
