LM Ep 26
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[00:00:00] In programs that teach adult education and workplace learning, the first module is typically needs assessment. And for good reason, needs assessment is a skill set that goes beyond interviews and checklists. It requires a healthy dose of IQ and an ability to speak your customer's language and not throw them off with yours.
[00:01:58] Listen to this episode for the story of how my guest has learned over time to build trust with her internal customers and to truly recognize what makes each of them. My guest is Sheila Al, who is the director of talent management at ATPCO in Alberta, Canada, Sheila, and her team are responsible for creating talent programs that work across a very diverse set of business lines, across many countries.
[00:02:21] These business lines cover functions such as electricity and gas, regulatory, and construction camps among others. The complexity is high and the opportunity to make a difference is huge. Sheila is a valued colleague and client, and it was delightful to have her on the show. She, and I always joke about how we could spend hours talking about all things talent and how fun it is to have an outlet where we don't have to tone down that passion or the jargon enjoy.
[00:02:46] shelagh-ell-january-25_recording-1_2022-01-25--t03-53-20pm--61157a395affa4006d0cfc64--lollyg: Hello, and welcome to talent management truth, Sheila, I'm so happy to have you on the show today.
[00:02:56] shelagh-ell-january-25_recording-1_2022-01-25--t03-53-20pm--guest889480--shelagh-ell: Well, I'm happy to be.
[00:02:57] shelagh-ell-january-25_recording-1_2022-01-25--t03-53-20pm--61157a395affa4006d0cfc64--lollyg: So I thought we could kick off by having you describe a little bit for the audience, what you do, and a little bit about how you got where you are.
[00:03:07] shelagh-ell-january-25_recording-1_2022-01-25--t03-53-20pm--guest889480--shelagh-ell: Sure. I'm a director of talent management and pension and benefits. Sounds like it's a little odd, but I am part of two different areas and functions in HR at. and my role and responsibility is, is really just identifying what it is each of our different businesses require in the space of talent management, or how do we support them in pension and benefits and the conduit between the two is wellbeing.
[00:03:38] And that's why they've put both. And my area of responsibility is just so that we take a look at it holistically and not just administrative focus.
[00:03:48] shelagh-ell-january-25_recording-1_2022-01-25--t03-53-20pm--61157a395affa4006d0cfc64--lollyg: Okay. And you, do you have a team there?
[00:03:51] shelagh-ell-january-25_recording-1_2022-01-25--t03-53-20pm--guest889480--shelagh-ell: I do. I have a team of 15 people and four managers.
[00:03:55] shelagh-ell-january-25_recording-1_2022-01-25--t03-53-20pm--61157a395affa4006d0cfc64--lollyg: Okay. So, so, so pretty, uh, pretty large in terms of the, the team that you support and collaborate with every day. So you've got some, you know, we know each other a little and, and you've got such an interesting story. I'm always intrigued to learn how people landed, where they landed and you had sort of an unconventional start or connection to talent and learning.
[00:04:17] Could you, could you describe a little bit for us where you came from?
[00:04:20] shelagh-ell-january-25_recording-1_2022-01-25--t03-53-20pm--guest889480--shelagh-ell: Absolutely. Yeah, it is a bit unique. I started actually my career in banking because in my family, the career paths where everyone should be a chartered accountant, my mom and. We're chartered accountants. My sister and my brother are so I didn't want to. And I thought the best approach would be well, maybe I'll try banking.
[00:04:43] That feels a little different. So after I completed my undergrad in university in commerce, I did get a job with CIVC. And then I started working and getting my designations through that journeys such as your CFP. So I enjoyed being in financial advisors and stayed in the area of financial advising and made and progressed my career for 12 years where I ended up in PA private banking and managing a team of about three to four people in that space.
[00:05:16] I started
[00:05:17] banking.
[00:05:18] shelagh-ell-january-25_recording-1_2022-01-25--t03-53-20pm--61157a395affa4006d0cfc64--lollyg: because I, cause I come from the wealth management industry actually has been a long time there about a decade. And so I'm familiar with, with us. It's a very, very it would look on the surface, very different role and requires very different competencies. You though are kind of a case for transferable skill sets.
[00:05:35] So tell us what happened when you decided to move on and, and what drove that decision.
[00:05:40] shelagh-ell-january-25_recording-1_2022-01-25--t03-53-20pm--guest889480--shelagh-ell: Sure. I was in the middle of doing my CFA and I finished first level and I got, I passed,
[00:05:48] shelagh-ell-january-25_recording-1_2022-01-25--t03-53-20pm--61157a395affa4006d0cfc64--lollyg: So that's chartered financial analyst
[00:05:50] shelagh-ell-january-25_recording-1_2022-01-25--t03-53-20pm--guest889480--shelagh-ell: yes, chartered financial analyst. And so what that means is that you would take an investment portfolio and manage the investment portfolio.
[00:05:57] And determine based on the client needs, what it was that the, portfolio should be designed. And so I did my first level and I, I just really didn't have a passion for it. I didn't really enjoy it. I could do it, but I just found if I've got another. Twenty-five years. I guess this is my early thirties and if I have another 25 years or so doing this kind of work, I just don't think I'll get engaged or be enjoying the time I am at work.
[00:06:31] I could. I do it well, but just not enjoyable for me overall. So what I did was I found, I kept gravitating towards the conversation and the relationships with.
[00:06:43] my clients or with the people I was managing more than I was actually doing designing of the portfolios, which. Is hugely important to focus in, on to be successful because you are taking responsibility for someone's money, and making sure that you're doing the appropriate advising for the individual.
[00:07:04] And it's not that I wasn't, it was just, I found I was enjoying and spending way more time on the other side of the equation
[00:07:11] and
[00:07:12] shelagh-ell-january-25_recording-1_2022-01-25--t03-53-20pm--61157a395affa4006d0cfc64--lollyg: mind, it sounds like the discovery and the needs analysis. Okay.
[00:07:15] shelagh-ell-january-25_recording-1_2022-01-25--t03-53-20pm--guest889480--shelagh-ell: So needs analysis was a big part of what I enjoyed is goal planning, actually. So determining what was important for that individual, what was their financial goals and dreams and hopes and, and that's what, what led to a additional conversation.
[00:07:32] But what was interesting is we did have a lot of articles provided to us or a lot of seminars that you would attend that would focus in on the concept. Chain your brain in while you were doing goal planning. And so what that means is that you would help the individual not get impulsive in the moment and spend money or invest money unwisely.
[00:07:57] And and that would be detrimental to, to the goals that they would be having. So for example, The community. And back in that time, it was 1999, where technology actually started to have a big burst in its bubble and people's portfolios just dropped. And so people were trying to move out of their portfolio at the worst time possible because it couldn't work through it.
[00:08:27] But I enjoyed working with that customer during that time. So that's the needs analysis.
[00:08:32] shelagh-ell-january-25_recording-1_2022-01-25--t03-53-20pm--61157a395affa4006d0cfc64--lollyg: Okay, so I'm just gonna repeat it again. Cause people may not have caught it. So the expression is chain your brain in. And so did this, was this or you as the advisor or for your client or both
[00:08:43] shelagh-ell-january-25_recording-1_2022-01-25--t03-53-20pm--guest889480--shelagh-ell: Both
[00:08:44] shelagh-ell-january-25_recording-1_2022-01-25--t03-53-20pm--61157a395affa4006d0cfc64--lollyg: okay. So it's, it's a way, so does it mean kind of reign in your emotions or become neutral chaining your brain in?
[00:08:52] Wow. We're going to expression.
[00:08:53] shelagh-ell-january-25_recording-1_2022-01-25--t03-53-20pm--guest889480--shelagh-ell: Yes. So it just means like don't be influenced by what you're reading out. Because it's typically too late to react to things and it's not healthy for us to keep looking at things and make a decision in the moment versus keeping aligned to what are your goals? What are your plans and how do I do that?
[00:09:16] And how do I make sure that I'm on the right track? For what's important to me. And so they'd phoned me up and say, sell
[00:09:26] or yes,
[00:09:28] and you just have to keep reminding them or just making sure that you bring down that threat for them. So that was my first exposure in to what it means to help someone through journey. What is it that you're looking for and how do I help you with that and how much enjoyment I received from that?
[00:09:48] Because what it ended up giving me is that confidence that that person would stay with me and that person would Excel. And then just the relief that they would have when they just said, oh, you're right. It's it's okay. And it wasn't that I needed to be right. I just want to do right by that, that person.
[00:10:07] shelagh-ell-january-25_recording-1_2022-01-25--t03-53-20pm--61157a395affa4006d0cfc64--lollyg: And that really sad. You tell me, but it really sounds like that translates into your, into your work today, right? Because trust is the foundation of all relationships. And in talent management, equally, because we, we need to help people know that that they're heard and right. And that we understand their particular situation.
[00:10:25] So
[00:10:25] shelagh-ell-january-25_recording-1_2022-01-25--t03-53-20pm--guest889480--shelagh-ell: yeah.
[00:10:26] exactly. It's like that. What matters to them?
[00:10:29] And it's, it's what matters to the organization. Absolutely. That's also why I love my financial background. Cause I understand the, the impact of that, but it's also the balance of what matters to our people.
[00:10:40] shelagh-ell-january-25_recording-1_2022-01-25--t03-53-20pm--61157a395affa4006d0cfc64--lollyg: Yeah, a balance striking that on. So key. So with this, so it sounds like there, you know, so you're heading for this big career shift. You're looking at, your, your career and you're thinking, oh my God, I love these conversations. Getting to know people, building that trust. Right. Really taking care of them.
[00:10:55] Don't love the analytical building of the portfolios and the managing of the portfolio itself. So, so what did you do when you started realizing, oh, there's a lot here. I don't really need.
[00:11:05] shelagh-ell-january-25_recording-1_2022-01-25--t03-53-20pm--guest889480--shelagh-ell: Yeah. I, I wasn't sure where to go. But because I had a good community. That you know, I've been a guest lecture at the university of Calgary, and through that network, they were able to say, you know what, you should go and talk to a Career counselor and see. What strengths you have and then what passions you have and see if there's a match of what journey you can look at, going forward, because the only exposure I've ever had was university and right away, I got a job with CIVC.
[00:11:36] So I didn't have any other exposure other than the default of financial planning and advising and everything that I was given through, my career to directory at CIVC. So it
[00:11:48] shelagh-ell-january-25_recording-1_2022-01-25--t03-53-20pm--61157a395affa4006d0cfc64--lollyg: Career counseling, career coaching. So it's such a key resource for people that are at that kind of transition point.
[00:11:53] shelagh-ell-january-25_recording-1_2022-01-25--t03-53-20pm--guest889480--shelagh-ell: absolutely. Cause it isn't, I don't, I don't have to impress someone by saying I want to do this. It was more true to what I like.
[00:12:02] shelagh-ell-january-25_recording-1_2022-01-25--t03-53-20pm--61157a395affa4006d0cfc64--lollyg: Yeah, because, because performance is sustained when you're, when you're engaged and feeling, you know, that you enjoy and you believe in what you're doing. Yeah. It's, it's a, there's a huge correlation as we know. So what did you discover out of that process?
[00:12:18] shelagh-ell-january-25_recording-1_2022-01-25--t03-53-20pm--guest889480--shelagh-ell: What I discovered was that. I really liked emotional intelligence type work. And I didn't even know what that term was. Yeah,
[00:12:29] It was again, back in the late nineties where these things were newer concepts. And so I was always exposed to. Had the perception that your IQ was what you need to focus in on. So how good are you at math?
[00:12:43] How good are you at English? How good are you at science here? Three basic ones and logic, but there wasn't a lot of understanding around the impact of the relationship or the human being. Was something I actually was far more passionate about. I didn't know what that meant as a career. But that's where I started to get that exposure.
[00:13:04] And, the person that was helping me said read these books. And one of the books was emotional intelligence by Daniel Goleman. And that really interested me. It really peaked my curiosity because it didn't feel. Like it was someone who was marketing something. It felt more that there was some research behind it.
[00:13:24] And so I kind of liked that scientific approach to it, where they were doing tests with the concept and how it actually helped and was a key ingredient for success. And I was like, oh, I want to learn more about that because I've experienced it over the last while that those who actually. We're more reflective and thoughtful around their goals or what they want to accomplish actually did more.
[00:13:52] And I didn't understand it other than my limited research I had with the chain, your brain in concept. and that was it. So I wanted to learn more and that's where I took that journey and leap of faith.
[00:14:04] shelagh-ell-january-25_recording-1_2022-01-25--t03-53-20pm--61157a395affa4006d0cfc64--lollyg: that took you to your masters, right. Masters. And it was, it was in leadership. And what was it? MBA?
[00:14:12] shelagh-ell-january-25_recording-1_2022-01-25--t03-53-20pm--guest889480--shelagh-ell: MBA and leadership. And then as I continued on, I actually quite enjoyed workplace learning and understanding organizational development and how that worked, because those again are areas I didn't know existed. Yes. You know, in my role, we had exposure to HR. but I didn't have exposure to that side of.
[00:14:32] I think it was just, I was invited. I didn't know. You know, I took it for advanced. I, you know, you just don't appreciate everything that goes into it. It's just, you're just there as a participant.
[00:14:43] shelagh-ell-january-25_recording-1_2022-01-25--t03-53-20pm--61157a395affa4006d0cfc64--lollyg: Right, right. You don't see that
[00:14:45] behind the scenes, right? There's been people really thinking about this.
[00:14:49] shelagh-ell-january-25_recording-1_2022-01-25--t03-53-20pm--guest889480--shelagh-ell: yes, no, you don't get that.
[00:14:51] shelagh-ell-january-25_recording-1_2022-01-25--t03-53-20pm--61157a395affa4006d0cfc64--lollyg: Okay, so you, so you wind up changing your career really significantly and, and pursuing education in this area of passion that really suits you and, and what you're all about. so maybe you could tell us a little bit about how that, you know, there's the IQ in the EKU and we, we know that both are important.
[00:15:11] How does that show up for you in your, in your work today at.
[00:15:15] shelagh-ell-january-25_recording-1_2022-01-25--t03-53-20pm--guest889480--shelagh-ell: Oh, good question. It, it shows up in After you studied it for a while or after you've been exposed to being an expert in this area, you tend to come across as being the smartest person in the space or the know at all, when it comes to leadership and people are afraid to engage you in conversation because they're afraid to say the wrong thing, or they're afraid to open.
[00:15:41] Around what it is they need help in or what it is they need development in. And what I found on EPQ, where it really has helped me is in assessing the potential of where they need to go. And knowing that I really am truly here to support and, bring out better for them and their team. So what would that look like?
[00:16:04] And I don't have those answers and just having. The trustworthiness of that individual, I'm talking to knowing that's the place I'm coming from. I'm not here to judge you. I'm not here to do any of that. I'm actually here as that support for you to be successful and that can take shape or form in, in many different ways.
[00:16:28] So that's, that's where I see that work that I've been exposed to an understanding of since I started that journey has been extremely helpful is just taking that step back and not just jumping in as that person to say. I have all your answers for you and here it is.
[00:16:48] shelagh-ell-january-25_recording-1_2022-01-25--t03-53-20pm--61157a395affa4006d0cfc64--lollyg: And, you know, with passion, you know, when you're really passionate and, and knowledgeable and educated in a particular area, I think it's, it's, you know, in talent management folks, HRL D O D O E et cetera, tend to be pretty well-educated right. Like really know learning junkies, and really enjoy all kinds of new learnings and certifications and so on.
[00:17:08] And, and which is wonderful. And we forget that sometimes that could be an intimidation factor, right? When the stuff just rolls off your tongue so easily with your clients, they're not at the same place. And so it can also sound like you're telling them, this is the only way to do something. Like we have to do it.
[00:17:24] We were so passionate that we're like, this is where we're going with this initiative. And why can't you get on the bus? And you're laughing because that doesn't always work. It does it.
[00:17:34] shelagh-ell-january-25_recording-1_2022-01-25--t03-53-20pm--guest889480--shelagh-ell: no. And, and you can understand why they may not be as passionate about it, because like I could engage in conversations with you all day long on this topic. Or I will use my terms that probably make you want to roll your eyes sometimes. Like I recall someone saying to me earlier on. Why do you speak like that?
[00:17:55] People don't normally speak like that. And if you're exposed to these things, Yeah. it can be daunting for that person to kind of step in and want to continue that conversation.
[00:18:07] I wanted to give you one that I thought was pretty funny lately that I've done where they've said that to me and that's Josh Bernstein and I love his work. And So I was reading it and I was having conversation with a leader and I said, you just need to learn in the flow of work.
[00:18:21] He just looked at me and went, learn in the flow of work.
[00:18:27] shelagh-ell-january-25_recording-1_2022-01-25--t03-53-20pm--61157a395affa4006d0cfc64--lollyg: So this was from Josh Berson, like, like from, uh, an article or something.
[00:18:30] shelagh-ell-january-25_recording-1_2022-01-25--t03-53-20pm--guest889480--shelagh-ell: his website he's Norman learning, I believe is what it's called. And he's got articles, short blogs that you
[00:18:39] shelagh-ell-january-25_recording-1_2022-01-25--t03-53-20pm--61157a395affa4006d0cfc64--lollyg: He's got a whole bunch of stuff. Yeah. I was just
[00:18:41] shelagh-ell-january-25_recording-1_2022-01-25--t03-53-20pm--guest889480--shelagh-ell: So it resource library of information, and I've followed him in his day since Deloitte, when he was with Deloitte. He actually, even before Deloitte.
[00:18:50] shelagh-ell-january-25_recording-1_2022-01-25--t03-53-20pm--61157a395affa4006d0cfc64--lollyg: He's excellent. I've grown too. I'll put the link in the show note for Josh Berson. Yeah. So learn in the flow of work and they sort of looked at you like, what is this? And then go coming out of your mouth. And we fall into that trap a lot again, because. You know, we all, when you work in organizations which are acronym, magnets, right.
[00:19:07] Full of acronyms and all sorts of business lingo, and then you're, you're learning all this talent management stuff. There's a, there's a lingo that goes with that. And it can kind of, creep up into your conversations with clients who, who, who literally you and I have talked about this several times, glaze their eyes glaze over.
[00:19:24] Like it's like the eludes them.
[00:19:26] shelagh-ell-january-25_recording-1_2022-01-25--t03-53-20pm--guest889480--shelagh-ell: yeah,
[00:19:27] shelagh-ell-january-25_recording-1_2022-01-25--t03-53-20pm--61157a395affa4006d0cfc64--lollyg: When you talk in, you know, in the lingo, we got to use the sort of more plain language. What did you say when they asked you learn in the flow of work? Why does that speak like that? How did you then reframe it as what you really meant
[00:19:41] shelagh-ell-january-25_recording-1_2022-01-25--t03-53-20pm--guest889480--shelagh-ell: it was funny. I had, I caught myself because my next thing was to say, Oh, that, I mean, micro learning, maybe just as confused if I went and said micro learning, because again, that doesn't. Connect the dots for the individuals. So how I did end up positioning, it was, it just means that we are overwhelmed with so much work load in today's environment.
[00:20:11] That it's about finding five minutes to have an opportunity to learn a new skill and then continue picking it up as you have another five minutes. so you can. Be able to have it on a site or someplace where you've kept it and then continue on. that's, all it means is that you're not going to get a whole day for learning like used where you could go and do a whole day, or you may, but that's rare.
[00:20:39] It's more, I don't want to stop my learning. And so I need to find ways to learn. And so how can I do that? So that's self-directed and then other options are, how do I get experience exposure? And today, again, the way you can do that is through being assigned a project. That's how you get experience now, but you almost have to put up your hand for a project.
[00:21:03] It doesn't come to. Anymore. It's not like, as it used to where people would tap you on the shoulders more frequently for that opportunity, it's more seek it out. And so that's learning in the flow of work.
[00:21:16] shelagh-ell-january-25_recording-1_2022-01-25--t03-53-20pm--61157a395affa4006d0cfc64--lollyg: Oh, so that's, that's interesting. Could we explore that a little bit? So you're saying, so I, you know, back in the day, I remember being seconded and tapped for different projects and so on. And, and you know, that was pivotal to my growth and I've done a lot of that in my career as a leader, to, with other people.
[00:21:32] Like a lot of it, you know, seeing something in people and, you know, and you know, trying to match them to an opportunity that helped everybody. So what do you attribute to this? You know, you need to put up your hand now that you're seeing this, like, cause I, I don't know that that's true everywhere necessarily, but in your experience, it is
[00:21:48] shelagh-ell-january-25_recording-1_2022-01-25--t03-53-20pm--guest889480--shelagh-ell: yeah. yeah. And I think it's just, again, I think it's with what's happened. Leaders don't have as much. To be as thoughtful in development conversations. And there's been this shift around you as the individual, you have to be in charge of your career. You have to create your development plan. And so it's like, you have to identify what projects.
[00:22:13] You want to be involved in and then that prompts the leader to say, oh yeah, that's right. Here's a project that could potentially work or this one could potentially work. And that's what I'm finding happening more and more now is it's like a flip of how to work through your individual development plan.
[00:22:33] Now with that said, there's still a lot of focus on.
[00:22:37] the areas of executive development where there's, we want you to be succonded. We want you to end up in this project, but when it comes to, when you're early talent starts to develop, they don't have that opportunity as much anymore. So in that space, it's a lot.
[00:22:58] shelagh-ell-january-25_recording-1_2022-01-25--t03-53-20pm--61157a395affa4006d0cfc64--lollyg: Yeah, it's tough. Right? Because it's almost like, like there, like there's a lot of goodness involved with individuals being accountable for their own development. The thing is, is that especially early on, they don't necessarily know what's available. Right. You don't know what you don't know. So if you have no view to opportunities, just like when you were in, you know, a financial advisor, you had no idea what, like learning and workplace learning and talent management even existed.
[00:23:21] Right. It was completely foreign to you. So, so it's tough to kind of get around that. So, so what, what are your thoughts about, like, how do you tackle that problem? I mean, apart from the fact that you've got your high potential or, you know, more executive type programs, but for those the early talent groups, what are some ways you can crack that nut?
[00:23:42] Right. If leaders are so busy to actually notice what what's possible.
[00:23:46] shelagh-ell-january-25_recording-1_2022-01-25--t03-53-20pm--guest889480--shelagh-ell: Yeah. And I think it's. Having intentional training for leaders to be more prepared to help the individuals and help them understand what opportunity exists for them and having a refocus in the area or the talent is what I think needs to happen because they won't know and what we are good at or. When you do things at scale, because if you're working for Lauren.
[00:24:17] Organizations, you have to do things at scale, you bring in things like LinkedIn learning and having, an opportunity to go in and you could do your own assessments and figure out some of these career counseling on your own now, which I didn't get exposed to that. But that doesn't mean you have someone to talk.
[00:24:37] And it is about the conversation and talking to someone about, I, my thinking, right? I don't know where to go with this, as you were mentioning and just having that voice well, who can do that? Your manager, your leaders. So we need to be more intentional about the conversations that can occur between you and the direct report you have so that they are getting.
[00:25:01] That more focused attention. But there, there it's like that frontline leadership isn't getting that train because they're getting all the other type of training they need. And again, back to my point of how much time do they get in. So it's always that balance
[00:25:15] shelagh-ell-january-25_recording-1_2022-01-25--t03-53-20pm--61157a395affa4006d0cfc64--lollyg: Yeah. So it sounds like the implication for talent management practitioners is really making sure that leaders, are encouraging the use of these different re it's not like there's no resources out there, but making sure they're encouraging it and having conversations to help people figure out.
[00:25:29] So what what's this.
[00:25:31] shelagh-ell-january-25_recording-1_2022-01-25--t03-53-20pm--guest889480--shelagh-ell: Yes.
[00:25:32] shelagh-ell-january-25_recording-1_2022-01-25--t03-53-20pm--61157a395affa4006d0cfc64--lollyg: Right, because that's really hard to do on our own. That's why a lot of training or learning that we pursue is kind of throw away. Right. If we don't do anything with it, because there's been no reflection, no discussion, no kind of sorting through. What does it mean for, for me in my situation, in my job, my organization, then it's kind of might be a moment of inspiration and that's it.
[00:25:53] shelagh-ell-january-25_recording-1_2022-01-25--t03-53-20pm--guest889480--shelagh-ell: I learned way back when Kirkpatrick's level of effectiveness right. On the, Yeah.
[00:25:58] So it's, it's getting where it's staying at one or two, and it's, it's not progressing to what you were speaking to as sustainable learning or Usefulness and relevancy. those are rare to have that type of conversation or time to have that conversation with the executive team as well.
[00:26:17] So, and it's just because there is a lot and they trust that you're doing that. It just getting the frontline leadership teams to, to just be more reflective on that. For what I see, like, Okay.
[00:26:31] So I'll give you another reason why it's so important today. It's because if people are trying to develop talent internally, because we're worried about a great resignation or we're worried about people coming in and leaving well, what's to say that person outside is going to be any more prepared than the internal person, because.
[00:26:53] No, one's giving a lot of learning. Then, then everyone's going to have the same problem. And it isn't that you can't get skilled development it's experience. It's connecting the dots of what that skill means for that particular project, as the example,
[00:27:09] shelagh-ell-january-25_recording-1_2022-01-25--t03-53-20pm--61157a395affa4006d0cfc64--lollyg: It's it's the stickiness factor. It's wild to me. Like I first got exposed to Kirkpatrick and levels of evaluation. Oh my I'm trying to think. When I did my adult education diploma.
[00:27:21] shelagh-ell-january-25_recording-1_2022-01-25--t03-53-20pm--guest889480--shelagh-ell: No, we're going way back.
[00:27:22] shelagh-ell-january-25_recording-1_2022-01-25--t03-53-20pm--61157a395affa4006d0cfc64--lollyg: We're really long time ago. And, and here we still are, you know, in 2022 talking about how hard it is to, to make learning stick and what I've learned over time.
[00:27:35] my coaching journey and education has really been helpful is it's, let's just simply. Let's just boil it down to it's about giving people space and grace and opportunity have conversations about the learning. It doesn't actually have to be that much more complicated, right?
[00:27:52] It's
[00:27:53] like it's taken, you might have learned, but you're not a vessel to be filled with knowledge.
[00:27:59] No. While you might take in some learning. You know, say it's on LinkedIn learning. So it's more of a one-way thing, right? It's more passive, you know, give that opportunity for peer discussion. It doesn't always have to be with a leader to, to make sense of it, to chew on it is what I call it. It's like, you know, you and I have talked like in the talent trust.
[00:28:17] What I, what I'm trying to do is, is give people. That opportunity to, to work through what does, what does all this mean? This, this idea, this theme, this theory, how could I, how could I, how will I actually put it into practice in my own world in a smaller, big way? Right? Like take it out of your brain and get some oxygen on it.
[00:28:37] shelagh-ell-january-25_recording-1_2022-01-25--t03-53-20pm--guest889480--shelagh-ell: Yes, that's very
[00:28:39] true.
[00:28:40] shelagh-ell-january-25_recording-1_2022-01-25--t03-53-20pm--61157a395affa4006d0cfc64--lollyg: powerful. That's the conversations.
[00:28:42] shelagh-ell-january-25_recording-1_2022-01-25--t03-53-20pm--guest889480--shelagh-ell: Yeah.
[00:28:43] the conversations are key. Because it's, I always think of it in the sense of I can teach you like Kirkpatrick's cause we're just using not the theory behind it, but if it is. Going To get you any place where you're using it as it's actually making your role better, or that's something that's giving you better output, or however you want to term that, then I'm just teaching you a concept.
[00:29:10] And what's the point of that? Because I can, I can easily remember that concept. It's not like this stuff is hard to remember. But it's definitely hard to do. There's such a
[00:29:21] shelagh-ell-january-25_recording-1_2022-01-25--t03-53-20pm--61157a395affa4006d0cfc64--lollyg: To put it into practice and, and, you know, that's why you are director of talent practices or right. It's about how do I embed it into my day to day into how I operate. So, you know, something else that I wanted. To dig into a bit with you is, is you've been re really hard at work over the last few months on, on building.
[00:29:42] You know, what's the talent management story at ACO, and you've got a really, really complex business model with it's almost. You know, companies, several companies within a company. Right. Cause there's so many lines of business, but they're really like, they've got presidents at the head of each one of them.
[00:29:58] Could you tell us a little bit, like, first of all, what ACO does the, the span it's quite incredible. what has been your biggest learning as you work with the different presidents and companies within it to help advance, talent management.
[00:30:13] shelagh-ell-january-25_recording-1_2022-01-25--t03-53-20pm--guest889480--shelagh-ell: Yeah. the company itself is a homegrown Alberton company and we're very proud of that. And so if you're a true Alberton ad co is one of the things you know of, and, and that's what I love about ad co is that it came from. A place of, we used to build structures which were mobile and they were trailers that you would put on a site.
[00:30:38] And, and so it just depends on the construction project or whatever it was, but that's how they started, and expanded from there. and so all of us who are Albertans are very proud of that. And, the Southern family has supported Albertans for so many years in so many good ways that I could go on and.
[00:30:58] For that as an advocate, just because, there's not a lot of Albertans stories such as theirs. And they truly in Calgary, as an example, you know, made sure parks were always a focus, making sure they have spruce Meadows and people were able to enjoy race horsing and, and opening that up to the community for many different other events.
[00:31:22] And so, so that's like a. Deep rich history and legacy that we continue to build out. With an underlying foundation of caring. So from there on the trailer side, they expanded into electricity and gas. And so we have regulatory arm of our business and we also explore camps and setting up camps in construction areas where we do The cooking and cleaning and ensure that those temporary camps.
[00:31:52] Are there for emergency reasons you name it? We put a bid in to get the business from, from that angle. I could go on and on, but those are kind of the core
[00:32:04] components. And we work in us. We work in Mexico, Chile, Australia, Puerto Rico. So this is how much we've expanded over the years.
[00:32:15] And that's Yeah,
[00:32:16] And that's what makes it complicated.
[00:32:18] It's because you have very different divisions within OutCo or business units within co and different countries that do very. Type of work. And so for me in talent management,
[00:32:33] I don't have necessarily one north. Yes, we have a strategy for outgo enterprise, but I have nine to 10 different north stars of what I would consider what we have to focus in on for each area based on a needs assessment.
[00:32:51] And so that that's my biggest lesson learned is because I will not help my team be successful. If I say, just focus on. And it's, it's proven for me to not work. And so yes, we're centralized. Yes, we are shared service, but we are what I would consider, we have to be the customer, our customers are each of the different areas.
[00:33:19] And so we have to take it like that. And going full circle. That's where I think my banking background has helped me is to understand customers and customer service and needs assessment and making sure and really understand what's. So what's needed for them in this moment of time, but also keeping them on track for what is their goals, strategic priorities for the next five, 10 years.
[00:33:46] shelagh-ell-january-25_recording-1_2022-01-25--t03-53-20pm--61157a395affa4006d0cfc64--lollyg: Right. So it's, it's really, really choosing to deeply understand your customer's needs, where they are not, imposing what you think will work because it works for other divisions, but really trying to figure out, you know, even if you're taking something, you know, when you're in, it's such a complex organization, you do need to have some core things that you then.
[00:34:05] Uh, just right for the business, but adjust in a really sound way that that meets their
[00:34:12] shelagh-ell-january-25_recording-1_2022-01-25--t03-53-20pm--guest889480--shelagh-ell: Sadly, like you still have to have your foundational kit as I call it. And that's like the tools and you have to have the platforms and you have to have the initiatives and programs. So. they see what it is you have, like, you can't just go in there with an open slate and expect them to be able to understand, how to use it.
[00:34:36] Cause it's it, it'd be great to buy goods, have a huge budget and say, yes, we have all of this, but reality is okay. So what's in your toolkit is a way to, to start the dialogue.
[00:34:49] shelagh-ell-january-25_recording-1_2022-01-25--t03-53-20pm--61157a395affa4006d0cfc64--lollyg: Yeah. And how, you know, here's some of the things that we offer that we have that we think could work here, what would it take for you to see this as valuable? What, you know, how, how might we adapt so that it works for your area? But starting from something that foundational kit is a great question.
[00:35:07] shelagh-ell-january-25_recording-1_2022-01-25--t03-53-20pm--guest889480--shelagh-ell: yeah, and you know, a kit is also a mindset, so it isn't just like a platform. It's a mindset too. And so if, if you need help on creating the right type of mind, Wow. We have tons of information on the growth mindset, and that's where the dialogue can go is if that's something that you want to explore more or psychological safety and having that kind of a mindset, you know, those are great things like you can see I'm already getting energized.
[00:35:35] I'd love to have more conversations in that space because I know, you know, that's part of the success is, is having those mindsets that allow you to be future-focused.
[00:35:46] shelagh-ell-january-25_recording-1_2022-01-25--t03-53-20pm--61157a395affa4006d0cfc64--lollyg: Yeah. Yeah. Knowing you I know future-focused is, is a term you use a lot, right? It's really about, yeah. And let's not get stuck in, you know, where there could be sort of some healthy tension around ways to see things right now. It's like, okay, but how do we, how do we move forward? Like what's, what's it going to take?
[00:36:02] So, yeah. Thank you. We're we're, we're at the end of our conversation and I thought I would invite you just as we wrap up to To share, you know, what do you see as the biggest opportunity for talent management leaders today? You know, especially we're nearly two years in with COVID in on, but looking future focused on the next year to two years.
[00:36:24] shelagh-ell-january-25_recording-1_2022-01-25--t03-53-20pm--guest889480--shelagh-ell: Yeah. I think our biggest opportunity is to provide clarity in how we can help our people deal with uncertainty, but more from a place of being able to get traction on things to do, like how do you become more active? Yeah, we hear this, but it doesn't necessarily, I don't think stick. And that's the conversations that we need to have around what, you know, today is going to enhance tomorrow.
[00:36:53] So it's going to be looking a little differently than you thought it would. And helping people again, that back to the mindset, be able to have that. Perspective and be positive about it and not get stuck in negativity like us. If we can help as practitioners for departments, leaders, to be able to work through that and navigate through that.
[00:37:17] I see it huge because that's why you're seeing things like purpose bubbles. Values become more important and walking the talk is a big thing for 2022. And the only way you're going to do that is to be able to help people through that journey because they've been stuck in this uncertainty of negativity or the stress of not knowing the social concerns that are happening or inflation or supply chain I could go on and on, but I think that's a really good focus.
[00:37:50] shelagh-ell-january-25_recording-1_2022-01-25--t03-53-20pm--61157a395affa4006d0cfc64--lollyg: Yeah, I agree. I agree. Well Said thank you so much, walking. The talk is a big thing for 2022. Agreed. Well, Thank you so much for coming on the show today. It's been such a pleasure.
[00:38:02] shelagh-ell-january-25_recording-1_2022-01-25--t03-53-20pm--guest889480--shelagh-ell: Oh, thank you. Really appreciated being here.
