LM Ep 27
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[00:00:00] Traditionally recruiters talk about cultural fit and may look for linear progressive career paths. Today's interview suggests that we turn those traditions on their head and look at what people including ourselves can add to a particular context versus how they fit. We also discuss what moving from transactional to transformational looks like in action.
[00:02:01] My guest is Heidi. However, who is currently VP of people experience at shiny docs, a data and technology startup, fairly new to her role. She is embracing the question where do we want to evolve to? She has won many awards and is an active volunteer in her community. This was a fun conversation. Heidi is very thoughtful and analytical and offer some great bits of advice.
[00:02:23] I know you will appreciate. Thanks for listening.
[00:02:26] heidi-hauver_recording-1_2022-02-01--t04-22-36pm--61157a395affa4006d0cfc64--lollyg: Hello, and welcome to talent management truths. Heidi. I'm so pleased to have you on the show today.
[00:02:35] heidi-hauver_recording-1_2022-02-01--t04-22-36pm--guest2589--heidi-hauver: lovely to be here. Thank you for having me.
[00:02:37] heidi-hauver_recording-1_2022-02-01--t04-22-36pm--61157a395affa4006d0cfc64--lollyg: So let's maybe begin by telling the audience a little bit about who you are, where you are, or you just started in a new role. And what kind of led to that change?
[00:02:46] heidi-hauver_recording-1_2022-02-01--t04-22-36pm--guest2589--heidi-hauver: Absolutely. So I'm a HR leader. I'm the vice-president of people experience for a company called shiny docs. We're in the business of helping our clients tackle whatever data challenges they may face. So very innovative organization. I've spent quite a bit of my career in the technology space, and I'm really thrilled to be back in this inaugural role for this company.
[00:03:07] To be able to help us scale and grow our businesses.
[00:03:11] heidi-hauver_recording-1_2022-02-01--t04-22-36pm--61157a395affa4006d0cfc64--lollyg: So when you think about what's ahead of you at shiny dogs, what were the key things you know, that, that they're looking for you to accomplish with your.
[00:03:19] heidi-hauver_recording-1_2022-02-01--t04-22-36pm--guest2589--heidi-hauver: you know, when I considered joining shiny docs new, are there a couple of things that I was reflecting on of. What do I want next in my career was definitely looking at joining a scale-up. So, you know, someone, a company going out of that startup stage and really scaling up their, their, their business.
[00:03:37] And I was looking for an incredible leadership team that inspired me and that I could you know, that I felt that I was adding value and contributing to, but I also could be inspired by, and I certainly found that here, and this is my. This the first time, if you can believe it that and I've helped other companies scale their HR teams from zero.
[00:03:57] This is the first time I wasn't the first HR professional. I have two super colleagues that inspire me and make me laugh every day. And that was an amazing change. I felt like my ability to get. You know, up and running and really integrated into the team. I give them so much credit for that because they really helps me.
[00:04:16] They they've already have trust and credibility with the team, right. There's already that strategic value and, and I'm sure you can. I know you're going to smile and laugh out loud. When I say this a lot of times, that's what we spend a lot of our time doing when we're the first HR leader is building that trust.
[00:04:33] Building that credibility, demonstrating how transformational HR can be, do a business. And I didn't need to do that at Shawnee docs. I could just jump right in and just go and it that's been amazing. And a ton of I'm having a ton of.
[00:04:46] heidi-hauver_recording-1_2022-02-01--t04-22-36pm--61157a395affa4006d0cfc64--lollyg: So it's, so it's building on, what's already there in this, you know, at the scale up stage is what I'm hearing.
[00:04:52] heidi-hauver_recording-1_2022-02-01--t04-22-36pm--guest2589--heidi-hauver: Absolutely lot of an enhancement, their inner, such great foundation. And I, I keep making jokes, you know, it's that two point, oh, you know, how can we make this ethic? How can we make this world class? And it's really just, again, an absolutely building on that really great foundation and that great structure and taking it to the next level.
[00:05:10] And, you know, like in all the scallops, tackling what our. Puzzles, which, you know, for other people might be problems or challenges. You know, for us it's puzzles and I give credit to my husband, Andrew Wayman for that puzzles can be solved. And so I'm excited about that. Like, I love that we're a scaling organization that have so much opportunity in front of us and coming together and collaborating with some really talented.
[00:05:35] People to be able to build our business and achieve our goals. And so, that definitely is what led me to the organization. And as I said, I'm having a really great time you know, every day. I'm very passionate about what I do. I feel really fortunate. It gives me purpose and I think that I wish that for everyone, that they can find something that they love doing.
[00:05:56] So they truly don't feel like they're working a day in there.
[00:05:59] heidi-hauver_recording-1_2022-02-01--t04-22-36pm--61157a395affa4006d0cfc64--lollyg: Yeah. Oh my God. And it can feel elusive for some folks who are at different stages in your career, you know, in the green room you were, and I were talking about, you made the comment that you have more. Confidence now than say even 20 years ago, like you're just at this point in your career where you, you feel you feel good and BN don't don't, don't don't have pool in France.
[00:06:18] Right? So you feel good in your skin. So can you speak to that actually a little bit about what's what's behind that.
[00:06:23] heidi-hauver_recording-1_2022-02-01--t04-22-36pm--guest2589--heidi-hauver: I think it goes back to. Really trusting yourself, you know, and again, you know, again, those instincts of when you're following something that you're really passionate about, that makes you happy. I think it does lead you down the path of where you're supposed to be going and what I haven't listened to myself as much and maybe done things where I, you know, earlier in my career, oh, I need to be doing this.
[00:06:47] Versus, you know, that makes me actually happy. You're not you know, when I started focusing on what makes me happy working with organizations that make me happy with colleagues that inspire me and, and, you know, let me be my best. That's when I think, well, I guess it goes back to having that confidence of being able to say, listen to your child self, right.
[00:07:05] Be true. Go and do the best work that you can in an organization that you can make an impact on who appreciate and respect what you're doing. And I think that's important. I've talked about this many times, you know, I feel like. HR, what we call people experience. Cause it really is about the experience of not only our candidates, but then obviously as they become part of our team you know, the whole team experience.
[00:07:29] A lot of that still there's some work to be done still in terms of moving that from being really traditional, still and transactional and making it transformational. And I, I talk about that because I think, HR it is transformational to our businesses. I think that we don't have businesses if we don't have people And I think that, you know, the more we see HR from a strategic perspective really the outcomes of our business are going to be amplified.
[00:07:54] Really truly see, you know, the, the growth that can actually be achieved. And so for me, when I think about carving that path, you know, for anyone who's pursuing new career or career changes, no. Are you going to get up every morning and going, I can't wait to see what to write. Whether those are puzzles or whether, you know, either your own growth challenges and where you're feeling uncomfortable.
[00:08:17] I get up every day and I'm like, I can't wait to see what we can accomplish today. I can't wait to see, you know, what I can create. And I think that I'm a bit of a creative and I, that's why I love working with innovative companies, like shiny docs that are always pushing it to the next level of innovation.
[00:08:32] Because I feel empowered to do the same thing and in my own practice with our, with our team. And so I think that again, passion and purpose when you can kind of bring those two things together, no matter what kind of career you're, you're looking to pursue. You know, I feel really lucky, like I said to, to have been able to find that, find that.
[00:08:52] heidi-hauver_recording-1_2022-02-01--t04-22-36pm--61157a395affa4006d0cfc64--lollyg: Well, it's interesting. Cause I do some, some work with, with people where they're feeling really unhappy in their, their role or their company. They're feeling like they want that purpose. They want to feel that passion again. And, and so sometimes what's interesting is. What's getting in their way is a lack of clarity about like, they want purpose.
[00:09:10] They want passion. They're just not sure what that means for them. So, so when they get clarity around that, I found some people actually end up figuring out, you know, the answer to the puzzle is really to stay where they are and approach it differently. Any thoughts on that?
[00:09:27] heidi-hauver_recording-1_2022-02-01--t04-22-36pm--guest2589--heidi-hauver: I think it's, it's such an important point that you make. And often we try to figure that out on our own, and I say, you know, get out there and put yourself out there, do an informational interview with someone who may be in a role that you aspire to find out how their path led them to where they are, understand you know, what a day in the life looks like.
[00:09:51] So you can truly figure out if that is something you want to pursue. I would also say, you know, Don't worry about having to pivot a couple of times. And we all have pivoted in our careers. Sometimes we take a step forward. Sometimes we take a step back and that stuff back is not a bad thing that might get you to where you want to go.
[00:10:09] You know, inevitably, and I think, you know, there's no clear cut path. To success. And I think he need to define that for yourself, you know, in our home, again, we often talk about work life harmony, and that we call it harmony because it's not balanced and it's different for absolutely everyone. And so is everyone's kind of definition of success for themselves and the definition of what growth means to everyone.
[00:10:33] Right. And so. That doesn't mean a promotion that doesn't mean needing to have the top position in the company that might mean very different things. And I think you have to explore that and go and explore it with others and, and learn what other people's paths were. And take a little bit, maybe from everybody's path to kind of create your.
[00:10:52] heidi-hauver_recording-1_2022-02-01--t04-22-36pm--61157a395affa4006d0cfc64--lollyg: Yeah, I think by you know, you make a good point by, by opening yourself up to, to you know, those informational interviews and, and, And you know, seeking to learn about what other people discovered on their path helped you start to figure out what questions to ask yourself. Right. Which is like, what is, what would work life harmony looked like to me, if I were able to kind of.
[00:11:14] Carve that out deliberately.
[00:11:16] heidi-hauver_recording-1_2022-02-01--t04-22-36pm--guest2589--heidi-hauver: And I think it's interesting what you said earlier, you know, one of the questions, you know, I will often ask someone who's earlier in their careers, what is it that you are looking to aspire to? You know, what is it that you want? And you're right. That you need to have some idea of what that is. And I always say to folks, even if you're not a hundred percent sure engage in that discussion, Try to kind of say, this is what I'm excited about.
[00:11:39] This is what energizes me, because it helps someone like me or someone like you be able to have that person. Right. And so even if you don't have such clarity on, I'm going to go accomplish this, this, this to get to here, at least have some idea, these are the three things that just really light me up and get me excited about this work.
[00:11:59] And here's why that's enough in some ways to be able to say, okay, well this, someone's. Maybe it will to get inspired by that and say, have you ever considered this type of role, have you ever considered working for this type of company? And I think that conversation can start just from a couple of sparks you know, answering some of those questions.
[00:12:17] Like, what are you excited about? What, what energizes you?
[00:12:22] heidi-hauver_recording-1_2022-02-01--t04-22-36pm--61157a395affa4006d0cfc64--lollyg: And what drains you, you know, this is something that I think people need to get clear on too. It's sort of like, what are the things that I'm excited to say yes to still, what are the things I'd like to add into the mix that are missing and what are the things that absolutely. They just, they take, they drain me and I need to say no to there.
[00:12:39] There are things I'm tolerating. Now. We all have stuff in our roles that we tolerate that we don't love. It's just that when the proportion of those things becomes too large, I think that's when that dissatisfaction can start to kick in and we need to just, we need to lean into that and figure
[00:12:54] heidi-hauver_recording-1_2022-02-01--t04-22-36pm--guest2589--heidi-hauver: Yeah, you need to own that and celebrate it. I think that self-awareness is a beautiful thing. And then what are you going to do with that? Right. And maybe that's like, okay, this is part of the role that it's just, it's part of my responsibility. How do you make that work? How do you get the most out of having to do that thing that maybe does drain you?
[00:13:12] I remember years ago and I've used this a couple of times, but I remember the first time I recommended it, I was sort of brainstorming with a client at the time and they were trying to explore what part of the role they should be hiring for, because they were at a point where they needed to expand their business.
[00:13:27] And we got, I noticed they had post-its a lot of post-its and they clearly liked post it. What about if for the week, you know, just humor me house, like for the week, your homework is to keep your process close. You've got a ton of room here and color code them. And every time you love doing something, it's, you're really excited about it.
[00:13:47] That's gonna be. You know, yellow and every time something that, like you said, kind of drains you is not something that you really loving or that maybe, you know, you're not that great out. That's a blue. And so the next time I saw them they re they grabbed my head. They ran, we ran into back to their office and they showed me they had post-its everywhere.
[00:14:04] They were so inspired because it was just literally the S the exercise of being mindful. And like, and ma and ha, and being aware of how am I feeling as I, my day is going through and I'm doing all of these things. And lo and behold, they were able to carve out a role to augment the business and, and, and their and, and really help elevate them by taking some of the things they weren't great at, or didn't enjoy and hiring someone with that very skillset.
[00:14:32] And it was super successful. So I think anybody can do that. You can get post-its at the dollar store. Take two or three colors and just, you know, humor yourself for a couple of days and put them somewhere where they can be organized. And every time you get really excited about something, write a note and every time something you're feeling a bit drained document that that's self-awareness can be really empowering.
[00:14:53] It might lead you to some answers that you have on kind of what's next
[00:14:58] heidi-hauver_recording-1_2022-02-01--t04-22-36pm--61157a395affa4006d0cfc64--lollyg: Well, yeah, and it's not always necessarily seeking a new role in your current company or another one, but it could be you know, taking some control in terms of how you advocate for how your current role might change. right.
[00:15:11] heidi-hauver_recording-1_2022-02-01--t04-22-36pm--guest2589--heidi-hauver: I love that.
[00:15:12] heidi-hauver_recording-1_2022-02-01--t04-22-36pm--61157a395affa4006d0cfc64--lollyg: How it could, could, you could sort of mix it up, right. To get more of what you love and less of what, you know, because performance is always sustainable when we enjoy the work.
[00:15:22] Right. If we can do anything, even if we hate it, but it's like for only so long and only so well
[00:15:28] heidi-hauver_recording-1_2022-02-01--t04-22-36pm--guest2589--heidi-hauver: Such a good
[00:15:29] point and I'd love to just stop there for just a second. There's so much change going on. Obviously today in today's world, it's been a dynamic almost two years and you know, when people think they need change, they often today as per the news reports you know, are, are moving elsewhere and moving on from their companies.
[00:15:48] And is that always required, like is if they had, you know, if folks I it's, sometimes it is for sure, but is there a place where folks can be more mindful and I also too think, you know, that's our responsibilities as leaders to step in and make sure that we're having those conversations with our people.
[00:16:05] What's next for you, Lisa? Right? Like what does. I mean to you, where do you see yourself in the next three to five? What does the next 12 months look like? How can I lean in and help you accomplish those things? I'm not sure those conversations are happening enough and I certainly advocate for them. And I think it's something that we all need to be doing.
[00:16:26] And if you're a leader out there listening to. Start by just leaning in and asking some of those questions, right? Where does this person see themselves in the next couple of years? What is the next 12 months look like? How can you lean in and how can you advocate and champion for that person? And not every organization is huge.
[00:16:43] And so you might be in a smaller organization and not everyone has the ability to. You know, pursue those next roles, but it doesn't mean you can't give them growth development and purpose by expanding their role or their reach giving them opportunities for growth and development. So I, I, you know, shadowing learning other roles, you know, I think there's a, a lot of things we should and could be exploring.
[00:17:06] And I'm hoping employers are paying attention to that more than ever by how do you continue to invest in the team that you have? Are you listening and are you creating those opportunities? And again, it doesn't matter that, everyone can be promoted all at the same time. Growth means different things to different people.
[00:17:23] And I think we have to start by asking that question.
[00:17:26] heidi-hauver_recording-1_2022-02-01--t04-22-36pm--61157a395affa4006d0cfc64--lollyg: Yeah. And it's not, it's not uh, a one-off these kinds of career conversations and discussions around, you know, what's working, what's not, it's it's, you know, these things, there's several pivots over a lifetime, a career time, right? Where, what drained you What drains you now was fine when you were in learning mode and saying yes to everything.
[00:17:45] Cause you were just a sponge, you wanted to pick everything up and then you get to a point where it's like, oh, I no longer enjoy that. That's happened to me so many times over my 25 years in corporate. And then since I've been on my own, You know, where if I, had to say, oh, this is great. And then all of a sudden, okay, now I want to deliberately figure out what's still working proportionally for me in terms of the type of work I do.
[00:18:05] And you know, how do I want to mix it up again? So, you know, earlier. When you and I were talking before we went live I thought it was interesting cause we both had stories around as we were coming up, you know, looking at job descriptions and, for roles that were higher than our current ones and figuring out like, what does that mean?
[00:18:22] What, what would I need to get there? And, you know, opens up the possibility. And you also told me that you do some coursework you teach at Algonquin. And I was thinking it would be interesting to hear about, you know, what's the advice that you would offer to well, new, both new professionals into HR and talent, but also mid mid career.
[00:18:43] heidi-hauver_recording-1_2022-02-01--t04-22-36pm--guest2589--heidi-hauver: I always love talking to new grads. Who've just at that cusp of, you know, going out to find that next role, you know, after graduating from a program. And I always like to kind of share my own story in terms of and I, and I think, you know, this advice is, is great for everyone, right? Wherever they're at in their career.
[00:19:03] One there's no career. There's no clear path. Right. There's no right or wrong. I think some of the most interesting folks I've met have had a really interesting backgrounds and have done a ton of different things. But the, the story behind where they got to where they are today, they brought all of that learning with them.
[00:19:22] You know, when I, I moved to Ottawa, I originally am from Quebec and Eastern townships about an hour from Montreal. And when I moved here, You know, 20 plus years ago, I didn't know anybody in the city. I didn't have anyone that can make connections for me. I had to get really uncomfortable. I had to.
[00:19:38] Ask for help. Right? I had to grow my own network. I had to do the work. Obviously. I want us going back to school. was working full time to put myself through school and what, I don't think a lot of people appreciate is I haven't been in school forever. I mean, I'm just finishing another course and getting another certification.
[00:19:56] I finished my degree almost around the same time I won um, very fortunate to be recognized as a 40, under 40. I was in school like for a long time. I mean, I was a director when I got my degree. And so when people hear that they go, what? And I'm like, exactly, like there's no perfect path for everyone.
[00:20:15] And I worked to put myself through school. I also felt Lisa that I got a lot more. For me anyway, by being practice like practicing every day and being able to bring that learning in and then being able to, you know, I think I wrote better essays. I think I had better discussions in like my, my teammates, because I could really go, oh, you know what?
[00:20:36] I'm experiencing this right now. And being able to get a complimentary of ideas from folks in other sectors and industries, I wouldn't have changed it. I mean, if, even if I could go back to that, And say to my earlier self, could you want to be an HR? That's what you're really passionate about. That's your purpose go and do your degree right away.
[00:20:54] I don't think I would. I think I would have done it exactly the way I did it. some of those early skills that I gained at as an executive assistant. I mean, they're still with me today. I still use those skills today. They're transferable. And what I would say to anyone is it doesn't matter right now, what job you're doing.
[00:21:09] Take absolutely everything you can from that experience, right? Grow your networks, do the best you can every day and recognize that you're going to use those skills for the rest of your career. And I think we were sharing, you know, when I look at a resume, I'm looking at beyond just the education piece, I'm looking about the work experience.
[00:21:28] And I'm also, I always love when I see someone who clearly has been working to put themselves through school clearly has done a variety of different roles. And I see not, what I see is that person's commitment to themselves. Willingness to try new things, that ability to be flexible and, and, and, and that agility, right.
[00:21:50] And that resilience. And I think that says a lot. And I think, you know, to employers out there that are expecting this clear cut, perfect path there isn't then I think you've got to go beyond. The traditional and look at what does this person bring an ad? I've been trying to change folks from using cultural fit over the last couple of years and say, let's use ad, how do you say culture ad because of these reasons?
[00:22:13] And I think we were joking before we went live. I think everyone should, as a Rite of passage. Be in a role like customer success or an administrative assistant mostly customer success, because I think it brings an empathy and an understanding of how difficult those roles are. I think you hone excellent people skills constructive, you know, giving constructive feedback, all of that fun stuff honing your communication strategy.
[00:22:38] But I think that that's important and I don't think anyone should. Hide something off the resume because they think it's not, it's part of your story and you should be celebrating that and showing a future employer, how that is part of who you are and what brings your ad, your culture, add to their organization.
[00:22:54] heidi-hauver_recording-1_2022-02-01--t04-22-36pm--61157a395affa4006d0cfc64--lollyg: So, so a lot in there. So when you think about, you know, that, that advice for somebody entering into the world of HR talent management you know, if you boiled it down, what would be the key thing? You'd you suggest they remember.
[00:23:08] heidi-hauver_recording-1_2022-02-01--t04-22-36pm--guest2589--heidi-hauver: There's been a couple of folks that I've met throughout the year that has just, you know, throughout my years of experience, who've said to me, like, I just, I, you know, they don't trust HR and I always think, wow, who, who did they, you know, who crossed their paths? that got. That perspective. I think you need to really engage and like people, if you're going to be in our profession.
[00:23:27] And I think the moment that you realize that you're not, I think it's time for you to probably move on because you know, you really do represent the organization in the business. And I think you are you can be the best for the business or not the best representation. I think that it's, you know, I take my role.
[00:23:43] Seriously. I, I, there's a huge responsibility that I feel I have for the success of our people in our business. And I think that that's what I would be saying to earlier with folks looking to pursue their career in, in HR is realize that responsibility, demonstrate your strategic value. And I think from an academic perspective, I, I, I'm fortunate to coach a lot of younger folks who are just get on the cusp of taking those first HR jobs.
[00:24:10] And I always say, you know what? Listen. What show me the dashboard you're presenting your to your CEO. Like what data are you capturing? And they'll look at me and go, I'm putting in a code of conduct. I'm putting in these policies and I'm like, absolutely. Those are all really critical, important, not really where I would be.
[00:24:27] To show that strategic value, right? Like how are you going to be showing the team that your differentiating yourself and, and that you're showing that value at right from the beginning. And I think a lot of times we go to the things that are easier, like creating policies, et cetera.
[00:24:42] But that is not necessarily where I would, I would start, I would start and to be candid, that's not where I started it at Shawnee docs. I absolutely started. Where are we wanting to evolve to? And, and what is our dashboard look like and creating looking at our KPIs and establishing, you know, our goals and, and putting some, some robust.
[00:25:02] Maturity around that. And that's kind of what we're working towards. And that's where I spent a lot of my first couple of weeks is building that out. And then obviously we don't necessarily a lot of organizations don't necessarily have the data at their fingertips. We're really fortunate. We've got a lot of great data already.
[00:25:18] Even if you don't have a lot of great data, you should at least understand what you want to be capturing. That enables us to make better decisions as HR leaders. And I think our earlier HR leader. I would instill to them, your superpower is actually distilling. And, and giving the insights about what the data means, that's your superpower, but ultimately at the end of the day, you need to have the data at your fingertips.
[00:25:42] And so I tend to talk a lot about that with the earlier kind of earlier HR leaders who are kind of building out their careers, how are you gonna, you know, create that strategic differentiation for yourself as an HR leader? You know, really raise the bar so that you can your organization can see that you are absolutely going to help transform the business and ultimately Lisa we're business people.
[00:26:06] Yeah. We're business folks first with a passion for HR.
[00:26:10] heidi-hauver_recording-1_2022-02-01--t04-22-36pm--61157a395affa4006d0cfc64--lollyg: Yeah. Yeah. And yeah, because that's important too, to see yourself that way and present yourself that way to earn, earn the right to be at the table. Right. Because, because there is a, you know, sort of this innate HR distrust of HR, if you will. Right. For, you know, and it's, I just think. And it's reality, right?
[00:26:27] A lot of people are like, oh, HR police, that kind of thing. so yeah, I'm hearing this, this real need to, you know, in order to move from that transactional kind of HR approach to transformational that you were talking about earlier, it's having that more strategic, expansive, broad perspective and view, and be able to bring that to bear through the use of dashboards and telling stories through data
[00:26:47] heidi-hauver_recording-1_2022-02-01--t04-22-36pm--guest2589--heidi-hauver: A hundred percent and just understanding the. Do you understand your business? Right. Do you know what value add your clients get from using your services or your product? You do, do you understand what your colleagues are working on and what's a priority to them and how do you lend an add value to that?
[00:27:04] I think, you know, first and foremost, we have to understand who our businesses are, what are they doing? What value are they adding? And then, you know, the fact that we can be complimentary to, that we can streamline our processes and practices. And data is, I think what enables lot of businesses to be much more successful in terms of being able to establish great data practices and then explore it, understand it, learn from it and learn from it.
[00:27:27] Right. And, and how do you be able to. And I, I mean, when I say where I feel my superpower is not being able to go and, figure out, I mean, again, we can all go on Google. We use our Google flow and find out what the best metrics are to establish our organizations. My, our superpower is to distill that and make it make sense to our leaders and make it make sense to our companies because of the individual context that every organization has.
[00:27:53] And I think that that can be incredibly powerful. And I'm comfortable. I appreciate for some folks when they're, they haven't necessarily gone down that path, but I challenge every HR leader listening today to, you know, if you haven't presented or created representation of the work you are doing in a formula that meets the needs of your organization, then you need to be adding that to your goals for, for 2020.
[00:28:15] heidi-hauver_recording-1_2022-02-01--t04-22-36pm--61157a395affa4006d0cfc64--lollyg: Yeah, that's fair. W would you have I'm just wondering, and I, I'm not trying to catch you off guard, but I'm interested in, in whether you have a, like a concrete example from your, your long career you know, you've accomplished so much. Of a puzzle. I love that word of a puzzle. You've solved using data for, for HR talent initiatives.
[00:28:38] heidi-hauver_recording-1_2022-02-01--t04-22-36pm--guest2589--heidi-hauver: So many and you know, that's the intriguing thing is that once you start using data and you start realizing how powerful it can be, it removes the fear of what you're going to find. And you actually looking for something you want to be having like a, you know, identify a trend or a pattern because you want to celebrate that and you want to learn from it.
[00:28:57] I think the most important lesson I learned is if you're going to do the work of collecting the data, then you need to have a plan on how you're gonna use. Number one to talk about a puzzle that every organization experiences I would look at turnover. So we all we all measure turnover, right?
[00:29:12] We have voluntary turnover and involuntary turnover. I would go deeper than that. So, I like to do an exercise. I've been doing it for many years. I like to name things so generally kind of call it catching red flag. But it's about distilling that data down deeper and deeper, really peeling the onion back.
[00:29:29] And I think that when you start thinking about, if you look at the involuntary data, those individuals that decided to leave on their own, I would be looking at other layers of the, you know, who was involved in the interviews. How long were they involved? You know, where is the involuntary turnover happening?
[00:29:47] Is are there certain departments where that's happening more? You know, as an example, let's say we get a sense that in customer service we're seeing a lot of involuntary turnover and it happens to be between six and 12 months. Then what does that mean? Let's dig deeper. Let's work with the leaders in the team to understand what's happening between that six and 12 months timeframe.
[00:30:07] Let's look at the hiring process. Are we setting proper expectations throughout the hiring process? Right? Are we setting up our folks successfully through orientation and onboarding? and I've seen this happen, right? Where, you know, you find this trend or pattern, and then all of a sudden you go, oh wow.
[00:30:21] These two people always tend to be in the interview together. And, and we S we're seeing this change in, in team members, you know, six or 12 months. Mainly we're where we need to re help that, that team up their game from a hiring perspective, set better expectations, have a better onboarding program.
[00:30:40] And I distinguish orientation and onboarding very succinctly like orientations for. Right. It's that welcome to the company. It's our getting everybody engaged and excited and learning the business onboarding should from my perspective, should be really unique to each functional team because everyone's time to productivity is going to be really.
[00:31:01] You hopefully get to a point where you're going to be able to measure that for your company, right. And that helps you again, distill down better practices and enable you to build better onboarding programs that meet the needs of the team. But I think turnover, everybody merges measures, turnover, involuntary, and voluntary, I, or do to go deeper, peel that onion back, look for trends and patterns.
[00:31:21] You'll see them. Once you start exploring. The data, a little further looking at, times of the year I've even seen, you know, and I've talked to clients where certain times of a year, certain teams will experience turnover. And that's something to capture. You know, often you'll hear that with customer success teams or sales teams, right after everybody gets paid out their bonuses or their commissions.
[00:31:43] What are companies doing to stay ahead of that so that they know year over year, they experience a change. You know, what are you learning from that? You know, I get asked a lot, Lisa, you know, you know, should I still be doing exit interviews or is that something that is really old school? And I always say to them, of course you should be talking to your people when they're leaving.
[00:32:01] Uh, Sure, absolutely. You should be asking them what you could have been doing differently.
[00:32:06] Huge source of information. More importantly, though, you should be having your stay interviews before you should be asking these same questions. Not when the person is saying they're leaving, but way ahead, res should be regularly connecting with your people.
[00:32:20] And I think we all get stuck in the operational tornado of, you know, we sit down and have a one-on-one with our team. We spend 30 minutes talking about operations and then the last two minutes is like, Hey, how are you doing? Well, that's not enough time, right? Like you really need to lean in over the last couple of years.
[00:32:35] I definitely read the book lean in I enjoyed it. But I use the language lean in and lean out with my team because I find that it's a comfortable way to say, how do you get out of my kitchen or I need you in my kitchen. And so, you know, for me, I will often say, Hey, Lisa, is this a lean in.
[00:32:49] Where's this saline and out moment. And you can tell him that I've got this, like, this is a lean out moment, but it enables that kind of conversation that we can only get to that place because you're, you're regularly obviously connecting with your team and you're building that trust and credibility.
[00:33:04] And I think that leaders out there today need to know. The exit interview is important, but more importantly is obviously all of those conversations before that point. And you know, we're all trying to keep our folks engaged, motivated, inspired, and maybe there is a day when someone has to spread their wings and move on.
[00:33:21] There's a company that I met years ago at a conference in California. and I would love to give them credit. They deserve it. I can't remember the name of the company. It was a really quick discussion, but they actually gave out physical boomerangs to their, their, their folks when they left.
[00:33:36] And it was someone who they felt was really, it was a regrettable person that they were leaving on their team. Like they really wished the person would stay. And I always for years now I've been trying to give them credit. I always shut them out, whoever they are, but I always say to folks who give that virtual boomerang, make sure, you know, Lisa, you know, you're important to us and that, you know, we're, we're sorry that we were able to fulfill your career aspirations here now, but we would love to hear back from you.
[00:34:02] You know, we would love to stay in touch and maybe five years from now you rejoined the organization. And so I think if you opened the door, To individuals so that they know that they can absolutely come back later um, because the door is open. That is so
[00:34:17] heidi-hauver_recording-1_2022-02-01--t04-22-36pm--61157a395affa4006d0cfc64--lollyg: so the hair is raising on my arms and I'll tell you why, because, you know, I, I, one, one company that I know that the president had, you know, just had this idea that if somebody chose to leave, even if they were a top performer that they were now. Traders, they betrayed the company. And so they were not ever allowed to come back as a rehiring and hiring managers.
[00:34:39] You know, this could be, there was one incident incidents as somebody who was trying to come back 10 years later, right? Like they they'd gone away, gotten tons, more experience in other roles, adjacent type roles and, and you know, more senior roles and. We're even more attractive than they'd been when they left.
[00:34:53] And there was like a big fat, no. And how quickly that changed when that president moved on? right
[00:34:58] Cause then people were like, no, absolutely. We want the boomerangs where it makes sense.
[00:35:01] So
[00:35:02] heidi-hauver_recording-1_2022-02-01--t04-22-36pm--guest2589--heidi-hauver: right? It's like, let's celebrate them as alumni
[00:35:05] and
[00:35:06] come on
[00:35:06] heidi-hauver_recording-1_2022-02-01--t04-22-36pm--61157a395affa4006d0cfc64--lollyg: story? They're ambassadors. They're coming back.
[00:35:08] again to the same organization.
[00:35:10] I mean, it's a beautiful story.
[00:35:12] heidi-hauver_recording-1_2022-02-01--t04-22-36pm--guest2589--heidi-hauver: It is
[00:35:13] heidi-hauver_recording-1_2022-02-01--t04-22-36pm--61157a395affa4006d0cfc64--lollyg: That's interesting. And you know, when you talk about turnover and I really appreciate you giving some concrete examples of, of going deeper and peeling that onion, because I think, people can sort of go, okay, well, what know dashboard data, where do I go with that?
[00:35:27] And turnover seems too easy. And, and that's really what It is though. It's trying to figure out, well, what does it mean? What's the data telling us? And it's like, I remember looking at churn, so internal turnover and trying to figure out, It was interesting. We actually found a correlation that where there was more churn in a couple of cases, it was because that department leader was the best at growing talent.
[00:35:50] So things, people were then churning into other roles within the same company. So we were keeping that talent. So
[00:35:55] heidi-hauver_recording-1_2022-02-01--t04-22-36pm--guest2589--heidi-hauver: And it is not, it's not about pointing fingers and judgment. It's about the learning. It's about staying strategic and it being innovative and thinking, okay, like we find this trend or pattern, how are we going to utilize that and learn from it and make it better? And. I mean, I like crunching data and I'm not, listen, I'm not a, I'm not a technical person.
[00:36:17] on my superpower, as I said. And I think our superpowers as HR leaders is having the data and utilizing the incredible tools, really maximizing the ROI of our tools to the full potential, but then saying, what are we seeing here that others aren't going to see. Like, how do we lean in, how do we peel this back?
[00:36:37] How do we look at flushing out some scenarios to see if, if we found something that we can learn from. And again, it's not about finger pointing, it's just leaning in and learning and then sharing that learning, you know, insights. That's hard, that's hard work, right? Like, and, and I think we often we give up because it's hard and we can't
[00:36:56] heidi-hauver_recording-1_2022-02-01--t04-22-36pm--61157a395affa4006d0cfc64--lollyg: It's
[00:36:56] critical thinking. Yeah, it takes energy.
[00:36:58] heidi-hauver_recording-1_2022-02-01--t04-22-36pm--guest2589--heidi-hauver: It does take energy.
[00:36:59] And then that, that like, you know, back at what we were saying, that's that strategic value you're bringing to the business where you're able to identify something you can all learn from and you can grow from grow with it. I mean, I think that's part of the journey and I think it's something that I think it's really powerful and especially when you celebrate it right, and you can kind of learn from it and then go back and say, you know, when we made this change, when we learned this, walk, it look at how much different Again, maybe it's turnover.
[00:37:24] Maybe we've seen a decrease in turnover because we identified the couple of things that we needed to within this department for this team about orientation or setting the expectations or any of that. And as you know, like sometimes as you said with that churn internally where we've got a great leader, who's promoting and uplifting their people to the next role that should be celebrated, that shouldn't be seen as negative.
[00:37:47] That should be encouraged.
[00:37:48] heidi-hauver_recording-1_2022-02-01--t04-22-36pm--61157a395affa4006d0cfc64--lollyg: we use them help share that, that knowledge, that, that, that success, right? What, what are they doing to mentor people? So, w you know, we reached the end of our time together at camp. Prostate went once again, it's a wild, I was wondering, you know, since we've been digging into this Meda data idea, you know, looking at data, telling the story, any resources that you could recommend to listeners that they could dig into, that would be helpful.
[00:38:13] heidi-hauver_recording-1_2022-02-01--t04-22-36pm--guest2589--heidi-hauver: so I'm a lifelong learner and I'm always looking to up my game and I think, you know, listen, there's so many great books out there, courses that you can do online. Some for free somewhere you're investing in yourself. first things, first is look around your organization. What tools do you have access to?
[00:38:30] You know, and maybe you don't have the budget to go out and get the really bright and shiny tool, but maybe you already have some really cool tools that you can utilize and leverage. Maybe you've got some some colleagues that would be interested in kind of working together. On you looking and using some of their data.
[00:38:48] I've always partnered really closely with my friends in finance and marketing and sales. They often have dashboards and tools that they're using that we can also use differently. And so I don't, you know, it's not about having the pockets and lots of budget. You know, I've had to be scrappy often with no budget and Excel spreadsheets or Google sheets are a great
[00:39:10] place to start.
[00:39:11] heidi-hauver_recording-1_2022-02-01--t04-22-36pm--61157a395affa4006d0cfc64--lollyg:
[00:39:11] and I love that, where you started was look around you. Like what, first of all, what are you needing to know? What, what would be important to understand? Where do you feel curious to start digging and then, you know, talking to your friends and finance and sales and ops and so forth, and also, you know, what about going outside your own organization?
[00:39:28] Like, you know, I think HR. we forget sometimes we it's easy to feel like an island, right. That there's peers that we can reach out to and, you know, find our community and say, how did you do it in over in your organization? Like I'm stuck here. I'm, I'm totally at a loss. I think that's really, really key is, is to leverage that as well.
[00:39:47] heidi-hauver_recording-1_2022-02-01--t04-22-36pm--guest2589--heidi-hauver: Absolutely. And I think more often than not, people are very willing to share that information and knowledge and again, make it your own, which is definitely when I hear you say is, you know, just because it works from one organization, it may not work for you. So change it up, make it work for your organization.
[00:40:04] And I love leaving in and, and, you know, start with. What data should we be capturing what's of interest to us. and then, you know, go and figure out, well, what tools do we need to capture that information? And as we've both said, like look around, right. I mean, it's, we want to collaborate with our colleagues.
[00:40:21] It's a great way, a great opportunity for HR to be able to do that and create that long-term the longterm partnerships with different departments.
[00:40:28] heidi-hauver_recording-1_2022-02-01--t04-22-36pm--61157a395affa4006d0cfc64--lollyg: Yeah, just by showing interest and curiosity about what they're doing. Yeah, for sure. That's that goes a long way to earning that trust. That's a great. Awesome. Well, thank you so much for coming on the show and for sharing your wisdom with us. I, you're, you're a very accomplished leader for listeners, please do check Heidi out on her LinkedIn profile and so on.
[00:40:48] heidi-hauver_recording-1_2022-02-01--t04-22-36pm--guest2589--heidi-hauver: And
[00:40:49] connecting connect with me on LinkedIn.
[00:40:51] always happy to connect and love reaching out to new folks and, and broadening that connection. And I think that, you know, the power of LinkedIn, from my perspective, the ways I like to utilize it the most is when I'm able to celebrate a new business incurred, you know, share someone's post who's looking for work.
[00:41:08] I think that that really to me, is where we can really empower others, uplift others
[00:41:14] heidi-hauver_recording-1_2022-02-01--t04-22-36pm--61157a395affa4006d0cfc64--lollyg: each other up. Yeah.
[00:41:14] heidi-hauver_recording-1_2022-02-01--t04-22-36pm--guest2589--heidi-hauver: lift each other up. Absolutely. A hundred.
[00:41:16] heidi-hauver_recording-1_2022-02-01--t04-22-36pm--61157a395affa4006d0cfc64--lollyg: Yeah, well, I'll make sure your, your LinkedIn profiles in the show notes. And I invite listeners to do the same, let you know, connect with me. And I think it's a, it's a great professional community to, to take advantage of it's there for that reason. Right? So
[00:41:29] that's how you and I met at a conference years ago and we got connected on LinkedIn and here we are,
[00:41:33] heidi-hauver_recording-1_2022-02-01--t04-22-36pm--guest2589--heidi-hauver: That's right.
[00:41:34] heidi-hauver_recording-1_2022-02-01--t04-22-36pm--61157a395affa4006d0cfc64--lollyg: years later.
[00:41:34] So,
[00:41:36] heidi-hauver_recording-1_2022-02-01--t04-22-36pm--guest2589--heidi-hauver: That's right. Well, thank you for the time. I always enjoy chatting with a fellow HR leader about things that we're passionate about. So I appreciate time today.
[00:41:44] heidi-hauver_recording-1_2022-02-01--t04-22-36pm--61157a395affa4006d0cfc64--lollyg: My pleasure. Thanks again.
