[00:00:00] Asking the right questions is an art form. Sometimes these questions can create discomfort. So it's important to be intentional about how you create psychological safety in your approach to allow for the right questions to surface. Good question. Asking ensures that you are gathering perspectives and getting the whole picture.
[00:02:20] Not only. Listen to this episode, for some examples of how to do this effectively. My guest is Luke Beaudry. Luke is a leadership development consultant at Canadian blood services. Luke is a senior talent practitioner with great depth of experience in leading teams and creating compelling content. We worked together previously and I have great respect for his perspective and experience.
[00:02:44] Enjoy the show.
[00:02:45] luc-beadry_recording-1_2022-02-15--t09-21-11pm--61157a395affa4006d0cfc64--lollyg: Hello, and welcome to talent management truths. Good to see you, Luke. Beaudry how are you today?
[00:02:59] luc-beadry_recording-1_2022-02-15--t09-21-11pm--guest144083--luc-beaudry: I am wonderful. And it's fantastic to see you, Lisa. Thanks for.
[00:03:02] luc-beadry_recording-1_2022-02-15--t09-21-11pm--61157a395affa4006d0cfc64--lollyg: My pleasure. My pleasure. So let's begin by sharing with our listeners a little bit about who you are and your background, how you got to where you are today.
[00:03:12] luc-beadry_recording-1_2022-02-15--t09-21-11pm--guest144083--luc-beaudry: Well, how not to make this too long, a story? I think, what's worth sharing in terms of how I ended up where I am now, and then particularly how I ended up In the talent management in, in my case, even more so the learning and development and leadership development space is really that there was, there was a turning point two real events I can call them that I can think of that, that really informed that because I grew up in the insurance industry, commercial insurance, and on the operational and technical side of that And while I was, made my way towards what I thought I wanted climbing the ladder and managing a team and then managing a function and a few teams.
[00:03:47] And it was during that that role when I was leading a function that in addition to the day job, I, and some other colleagues had the opportunity to participate in what was a large-scale change program. And. as part of that there was an opportunity to facilitate in what I facilitated was, was still very much in the technical realm.
[00:04:05] And I delivered some presentations before I delivered technical training. And that was okay, but this was my first exposure to facilitation. So while it was in the technical realm, It really was facilitating a process. It was helping people think critically leading with questions, as opposed to teaching, engaging in that deeper thought process and dialogue.
[00:04:28] and I realized that what that was fun and I know it was half decent at it. and then I delivered those sessions numerous times with having more fun each time. And then the real turning point was the question. I was starting to understand the power of questions, but it was a three-day program.
[00:04:47] I've mentioned technical in nature And really there were some key takeaways that people needed to have in order for this to pay off, they needed to get why we were asking them to do this type of critical process and critical thinking. And this was the last break on the last day of the program and the most senior stakeholders, most critical stakeholders in that room still did not get it or buy into it.
[00:05:12] So during bio brick the time when all good ideas happen, I heard it. I heard it in my head. Here's the question I need to ask and it felt good. I went back in, I asked the question and framed it and immediately it was eyes lit up demeanor changes and may or may not have said out loud. Oh, I see what you mean.
[00:05:33] I get it. That makes absolute sense. And then, you know, on my part relief, but later also just that kind of, yes. I wish I'd done that the first morning or earlier in the program, but really that was such a key turning point to help me realize the impact. But that type of facilitation or way of group coaching, if you will.
[00:05:53] The impact of that could have that was, that was one of those two, two really main turning points.
[00:05:58] luc-beadry_recording-1_2022-02-15--t09-21-11pm--61157a395affa4006d0cfc64--lollyg: Any chance. Do you remember what that question was? Or just
[00:06:01] luc-beadry_recording-1_2022-02-15--t09-21-11pm--guest144083--luc-beaudry: Oh, I do. I do. I do. Because, so the, yeah, absolutely. And it's not a, it's not one of those master key questions that you can pull out event, you know, in any event, because it was very specific to the, the setting, but what is kind of a master key in that question is the hypothetical. So it was a hypothetical and the context was, was one where this person was responsible for a particular insurance portfolio in case.
[00:06:27] And we were, we were basically asking people to do more work in terms of file documentation, not the most exciting thing. But the, the question I came back with is, was, was this I need you to imagine yourself for a second being promoted. You're an hour in the UK with the parent company, and you are responsible for the global.
[00:06:45] Portfolio of this. You are not spending time daily, weekly talking to the people in Canada, in the U S and Europe and Asia and Australia, you have to rely on them. And so you're delegating them the authority to make a whole bunch of decisions that are putting the company at risk. What do you need to know in order to determine whether you're comfortable, delegating that authority?
[00:07:07] And so remembering that for those first couple of days, this is what we've been talking about, right? Documenting your critical thought process of why did I make this decision? Why did I accept this risk or rejected this risk? And what about the pricing? And so it was really just being able to take a step out of the immediate, I think that's the power of the hypothetical is just to say, all right, forget the rules for a second.
[00:07:28] You know, it was a quick transportation and to put yourself in their shoes, w what would make this work for you? And clearly you could see the reaction was, oh, for me to be comfortable. Yeah. I would absolutely need to have more you know, if I'm picking up a file just to audit and review, I need to have more.
[00:07:46] And so it was really.
[00:07:48] luc-beadry_recording-1_2022-02-15--t09-21-11pm--61157a395affa4006d0cfc64--lollyg: Right. Such a beautiful example. Cause like, cause so what I'm picturing is just tobacco for a sec, those that he was kind of resisting the need for whatever was that
[00:07:57] luc-beadry_recording-1_2022-02-15--t09-21-11pm--guest144083--luc-beaudry: Absolutely.
[00:07:58] luc-beadry_recording-1_2022-02-15--t09-21-11pm--61157a395affa4006d0cfc64--lollyg: on the tables?
[00:07:59] luc-beadry_recording-1_2022-02-15--t09-21-11pm--guest144083--luc-beaudry: to keep it simple. It's not efficient. There were all the reasons why you might push back on that.
[00:08:03] luc-beadry_recording-1_2022-02-15--t09-21-11pm--61157a395affa4006d0cfc64--lollyg: Yeah. And so now all of a sudden it's like, oh, it's a powerful example of how to build buy-in. Right. Because you didn't, say dude, like, why are you digging in your heels? There was none of that. Like none of this sort of, you know, locking horns, if you will, it was really around, helping him step out of his perspective and into another.
[00:08:27] luc-beadry_recording-1_2022-02-15--t09-21-11pm--guest144083--luc-beaudry: Completely. Yeah. And I, I think that's a key word you've just used there, Lisa and that's perspective, right. And perspective taking it's a key tool. First-person but it's certainly a key enabling tool when you're supporting others, whether it's for their development career progression, or just to figure out a problem they're working on right now is, is perspective.
[00:08:48] Taking.
[00:08:48] luc-beadry_recording-1_2022-02-15--t09-21-11pm--61157a395affa4006d0cfc64--lollyg: Yeah. And I think sometimes we can get, so, you know, we can get into tunnel vision a little bit, you know, and we see this with our clients getting kind of locked into a particular way of, of seeing. A problem locked into position. And so anything you can do as a facilitator, right? Or, or even if you're just leading a project or contributing is to be able to tap into the power of those facilitative questions, right.
[00:09:09] To help lift people out of that. Right. And then in a safe way, like a nonjudgmental way.
[00:09:15] luc-beadry_recording-1_2022-02-15--t09-21-11pm--guest144083--luc-beaudry: Absolutely. And that's critical as well. And it's also it in a way.
[00:09:19] it leads me back to, to the second part of what made me move from uh, an operational technical setting to a, to the world of talent development and talent management. Was that. As a leader I'd been asked by the HR team at the time to join a wonderful program, meant to develop potential leaders, folks, not yet in leadership roles and who were either contemplating or being contemplated.
[00:09:42] And the lovely thing that they had done at the time is small group eight participants. And they had four senior leaders from the business acting as mentors, each paired with two participants. And I, I had the opportunity to to be one of those mentors. and I love the program. I love the experiential nature of it.
[00:09:59] I love the, the higher touch support. I thought it was brilliant. And, and even that commitment of senior leader time just speaks volumes to the value of, of the experience and of the process. And when I did that, I kind of filed it away. That was a cool experience when that got blended with the facilitation experience that I had and the power of those questions, it was like, oh, I think I understand that.
[00:10:22] What to do now. And so I just went knocking on her door. They, they opened the door a little bit. We knew each other, but, but not that well, and it's not that often somebody from the business said, Hey, can I come in? And that's, that was really the, the shift really in my career, moving into being responsible for our learning and development portfolio and for the employee engagement survey at the time.
[00:10:43] And, and just being exposed then to the, the rest of the talent management cycle and world. So it's, I haven't looked back since.
[00:10:49] luc-beadry_recording-1_2022-02-15--t09-21-11pm--61157a395affa4006d0cfc64--lollyg: Yeah. Wonderful. Well, I can tell you from personal experience, like I, I think you know, so many of us fall into HR O D learning and development, and so on sort of early on, a lot of other people come to it in a more circuitous way, right. Through, through the business. I've always valued. That backdrop, that, that knowledge, that context, cause I spent some time in operations as well, and I felt like it really, really served me in what I do.
[00:11:12] And I, I'm not trying to say that you have to have that by any means to practice, but I think it does allow you perhaps a little bit earlier, if not easier to, to kind of, be able to put yourself in your internal client's shoes. Because you were there at one point, so you kind of get it.
[00:11:29] luc-beadry_recording-1_2022-02-15--t09-21-11pm--guest144083--luc-beaudry: Yes. And I did end up spending a fair bit of time over my career since then in a facilitation role in leadership development. So having those those stories myself and where I stumbled in the bruises, as well as those success stories where I can say here's when I figured it out. And, and what happened as a result it.
[00:11:45] was really critical both credibility, but also for relate-ability.
[00:11:50] luc-beadry_recording-1_2022-02-15--t09-21-11pm--61157a395affa4006d0cfc64--lollyg: Yeah. Well, and, and so you've had an interesting career. So you started in insurance and, kind of made that leap from operations more into the talent space. And then I know you personally, from our shared experience with a training and development firm here in Canada, where you worked for many years, and I work as an associate facilitator from time to time.
[00:12:09] What happened with that particular leap? Cause that's, that's sort of going on to another side of the desk, if you will.
[00:12:15] luc-beadry_recording-1_2022-02-15--t09-21-11pm--guest144083--luc-beaudry: first foray into, into the human resources world and the people in culture world was really eye-opening and it, it validated that this was a space I was really enjoying comfortable in And ultimately what happened is the more I facilitated, the more I realized how much fun I was having facilitating.
[00:12:30] And I was loving seeing the impact that that was having. So I, I took the same route that, that you did and went on, on my own for that for a period of uh, 10 years. And it was wonderful and there were some you know, highs and lows of, of being an independent consultant, but also just a number of wonderful programs and experiences in particular.
[00:12:47] Some that I had the opportunity to co-facilitate and co-create. And a very collaborative way and that we're just so, so high impact and so rewarding to be in that the exhaustion at the end of those days in those weeks was well well worth it. as I said, did that for about 10 years, but found myself at a certain point Missing a team and I'm, you know, I'm, I'm an introvert, but I still, I still want those collaborators, those connection points.
[00:13:11] And that's when I rejoined you know, an internal team and became a part of the mechanism as opposed to an independent consultant and then recently made career switch again to to joining a larger organization with Canadian blood services. Proud to be a part of and back, really into where I want to be.
[00:13:27] I've had leadership roles over the years, including the last few years and was really just looking forward to diving in a little bit deeper and as opposed to working with different clients on a consistent basis, just really embedding myself in the organization. Being able to understand the true needs, understand the stakeholders, take their perspective and see how I can add value along with my colleagues to
[00:13:48] luc-beadry_recording-1_2022-02-15--t09-21-11pm--61157a395affa4006d0cfc64--lollyg: Well, and I think that that there's, you offer a lot for us to consider, right? When you think about a career journey, I mean, it's not just always about get on one path and stay on it, you know, like just, just follow it directly. Like you, you know, there's, you, you've chosen to sort of step in and out and sometimes sideways, like not always, it's gotta be the next level up.
[00:14:07] Right. And there's no apologies. It's what you want. It is what, what you just said.
[00:14:12] luc-beadry_recording-1_2022-02-15--t09-21-11pm--guest144083--luc-beaudry: absolutely. And I've done that numerous times over my career guys. What, what can sometimes look on paper as a step back or a step sideways, but for something that's fulfilling for something that's interesting always worth it in my.
[00:14:24] luc-beadry_recording-1_2022-02-15--t09-21-11pm--61157a395affa4006d0cfc64--lollyg: Absolutely. You're always somebody who, who, it's just, this is, this is how I, how I feel, what I need and I I'm going for it. I love it. And you know, on the facilitation piece, it's interesting to me that that was kind of the. The area that, that, that really peaked your interest. You know, I call facilitation my flow state.
[00:14:39] It's part of the reason I eventually left corporate because I had to do some way more facilitation because we had, a gap on the team and I hadn't done that much for that length of time. It was sales training for a long time. And Realized how much I missed it and I loved it. It was just, you know, I'm just in my realm when I was in that, in that facilitation mode.
[00:15:01] So it's interesting. We start to realize, oh, what gives me energy? What drains it?
[00:15:05] luc-beadry_recording-1_2022-02-15--t09-21-11pm--guest144083--luc-beaudry: for sure. And for you, what, what did you find was the trigger for that state of flow? How did you enter it? If you will, in your.
[00:15:12] luc-beadry_recording-1_2022-02-15--t09-21-11pm--61157a395affa4006d0cfc64--lollyg: Hmm. That's a great question for me. Who's interviewing who here? No, I'm kidding.
[00:15:17] luc-beadry_recording-1_2022-02-15--t09-21-11pm--guest144083--luc-beaudry: I can take it back.
[00:15:18] luc-beadry_recording-1_2022-02-15--t09-21-11pm--61157a395affa4006d0cfc64--lollyg: it's all good. Yeah, it's a great question. I think it's where. one of the ways to understand what your, your F your flow activity is, right? It's, what's the thing that when you do it, everything's feels easy.
[00:15:29] Like, it almost feels too easy and people say, you make it look easy, and you're kind of just time flies for me. That's facilitation. It also drains me. It takes a lot out of me, so I need a little more recovery time. I find now than when I was younger, maybe it's, it's something that I think it was more in the reflection after the fact where I realized that that's, that, that was kind of my jam, but I needed more of that in my world.
[00:15:51] luc-beadry_recording-1_2022-02-15--t09-21-11pm--guest144083--luc-beaudry: right. It's a good thing to have when you can find that state.
[00:15:55] luc-beadry_recording-1_2022-02-15--t09-21-11pm--61157a395affa4006d0cfc64--lollyg: Yes, it is. It is. Well, let's, let's keep going a little bit further just around where you are now, because I know you just mentioned that something that you're, you're looking forward to is really getting to know everybody, understand the needs, figure out, you know, where do we need to go?
[00:16:11] Right. What's going to fit in this particular organization with the various teams. And you and I were talking earlier, before we hit record around. The need to get really clear on outcomes
[00:16:22] luc-beadry_recording-1_2022-02-15--t09-21-11pm--guest144083--luc-beaudry: Yes.
[00:16:23] luc-beadry_recording-1_2022-02-15--t09-21-11pm--61157a395affa4006d0cfc64--lollyg: for any particular project. How do you go about making that happen with, you know, when you're working collaboratively?
[00:16:31] luc-beadry_recording-1_2022-02-15--t09-21-11pm--guest144083--luc-beaudry: The simplest answer the same as my turning point, my career turning point, and it's asking the right questions, but I'll add to that by saying. Asking them with the right mindset and right intention. Cause it's easy to for me anyways, when I get into that mode, it's easy to, for it to come across potentially as interrogation and challenge, right.
[00:16:51] It's like, well, wait, why do you want that? And what in, in, that's not necessarily going to lead to a very productive conversation, But ensuring going into a discussion, going into a project, going into a meeting that, that somebody lays the groundwork for, well, what are we trying to achieve with the meeting, with the project, with the conversation, and if the person initiating this hasn't it doesn't mean they haven't thought about it, but they may not have thought to mention it.
[00:17:14] Right. It's that's very easy to forget. So I find myself Playing this role and encouraging others to do the same, but just asking the question before we dive in too deep, just like to take a moment and make sure that, you know, the, that I, and I'll take ownership of it and to say that I'm aligned and that I understand really what we're trying to achieve here so that my attention suggestions, focus can serve that purpose.
[00:17:37] And I mean, the number of examples, where that has been, whether I've, I'm the one who asked to it or somebody else where that's really changed the course of a conversation in a very productive way and in the sometimes very uncomfortable way.
[00:17:50] luc-beadry_recording-1_2022-02-15--t09-21-11pm--61157a395affa4006d0cfc64--lollyg: What is it that makes them.
[00:17:52] luc-beadry_recording-1_2022-02-15--t09-21-11pm--guest144083--luc-beaudry: Well, so a couple of things sometimes folks haven't necessarily thought about it.
[00:17:56] And so they, they were ready to let's dive in, let's move this thing forward, but if they've not necessarily had the opportunity you're taking the time to, to identify, well, what are the tangible outcomes we want out of this? And what are the roles I want people to play. I'd put them on the spot to a certain degree.
[00:18:11] Right? So again, how that question is asked and what you do with the response is critical to, to making it safe, you know, to use something that's very much on a lot of people's radars, these things create that psychological safety so that we can proceed with the conversation or sometimes adjourn it and just go, you know, Instead of, instead of continuing on that, maybe we let's, let's take 10 minutes and see if we can wrap our heads around what we are trying to achieve, and then I'll can take that away and we can reconvene.
[00:18:39] That's a perfectly legitimate outcome. That's going to have way more payoff than attempting to navigate our way through a fog that we have the tools to dissipate, but just haven't necessarily done it. So, That's one example of the discomfort and the other one I would give. And I've experienced this a few times.
[00:18:56] it's when you're not most definitely not the chair of a meeting. And you you've tried maybe to talk to the main stakeholders and say, Hey, just want to clarify what you're and either for availability reasons or because they think it's all crystal. Whatever the case may be. You end up showing up and having to do your thing, whether it's make your pitch for, some funding for a key project, whatever it may be.
[00:19:18] And yet your intuition is telling you, I don't think we're aligned here. I think there's a piece missing. And so it's not an easy thing to do, but to take that deep breath and say, right. I'm going to call it. I'm just going to take a pause here. I know it's not my meeting. And just say again, just want to make sure we're on the same page.
[00:19:34] Here's how I've prepared for this. here's what I think you've asked me to do. And before I launch in, I just want to confirm that that matches your expectations and all of this. It's really me. That's uncomfortable if the answer is no, that's not quite what we're looking for. Most of the time it's going to be on track or pretty close to it.
[00:19:51] And the work I've put in it will pay off. But I've had a few occasions where, you know, I, or we, if there were more people involved could have known better and we a client, a potential client presentation, a pitch where my spidey senses were. They want something more specific than what we've prepared.
[00:20:08] And I just did that check at the beginning of the meeting and some miscommunication somewhere, but they had shared very specific expectations that we had no knowledge of, right. Somewhere it got lost. And so we're sitting there about to launch into something. So again, uncomfortable moment, but at least we were able to spend our brief time. Attempting to answer the three questions that they had posed very specifically, even though we were hearing them for the first time. So I I'd rather embrace that discomfort
[00:20:36] luc-beadry_recording-1_2022-02-15--t09-21-11pm--61157a395affa4006d0cfc64--lollyg: spinning wheels. It sounds like great. Like in, in a, in a meeting that could waste people's time versus get anything actually accomplished.
[00:20:47] luc-beadry_recording-1_2022-02-15--t09-21-11pm--guest144083--luc-beaudry: And I've heard this happened once or twice luxury of where I happened to be sitting during a period of time in my career, which was not that far from the executive corridor. And you'd see, I mean, and I remember that feeling myself as well, the, the anxiety. It goes into preparing a presentation or a pitch for an executive team, especially for the first time and everything that's at stake.
[00:21:08] And I'd see people walk out of that executive boardroom that daunting executive boardroom, and you see the relief and the release and maybe a little fist bump and going like, yes. And then five minutes later, you hear the executive come out going well, that was a waste of 20 minutes. I mean, that's, that's a dreadful outcome for everyone involved.
[00:21:25] Right. And so when I harp on that, That desire of mine. And that I think for, for me, just the importance of identifying what's, what are we trying to achieve here? What's the key outcome, you know, it can be as specific as saying what's the outcome for this conversation, or it can be as massive as how are we going to measure the success and the key outcomes of this multi-year project.
[00:21:45] luc-beadry_recording-1_2022-02-15--t09-21-11pm--61157a395affa4006d0cfc64--lollyg: And I think as a facilitator, cause a lot of listeners are facilitators as part of their, their roles as talent management leaders and professionals. I think you have to be willing take the time, take the time it takes to ensure everybody is on that proverbial, same page around the outcome.
[00:22:02] Because a lot of times I think, you know, you can sense that people are impatient or rushed. A I've got another meeting, I've got a hard stop, you know, this kind of behavior. It can seem easier to just, just roll with it. Right? And you have people in varying states of, of preparedness, right? Who, who may not be prepared to articulate exactly what they see as, as the most important outcome and so on, but to take the time to ensure everybody's got a voice, we're all, visualizing this in the same way now, before we actually start going anywhere, let's know we where we it's like, which subway stop are we going to get on?
[00:22:36] luc-beadry_recording-1_2022-02-15--t09-21-11pm--guest144083--luc-beaudry: Yeah. And I think it, I feel like clarifying as well, or just adding that a couple of the examples I gave her, those kind of daunting ones where it's like, it can be uncomfortable. A lot of times, all it takes is 30 seconds. you've either confirmed alignment or gotten that additional glimpse of clarity.
[00:22:52] That's so critical. And there's a meeting just two years back. I think where, where a few of us were kind of like, where, where are we going with this? And then we just, stopped our, our president at the time to just say like, Hey, how are you going to measure success for this. 15 seconds later, we have the answer like he had, he hadn't verbalized it yet, but he had three very clear outcomes that he wanted to see happen.
[00:23:12] I was like, okay, perfect. And then off we go no discomfort, no resetting of meetings. Just focus. Right.
[00:23:19] luc-beadry_recording-1_2022-02-15--t09-21-11pm--61157a395affa4006d0cfc64--lollyg: Yeah, well, it kind of links back to that whole idea of seeking other perspectives, like making sure everybody's got the full perspective that we've walked around this from everybody's angle, not just our own, right? So that we've got the actual picture of what it means to have. Cause I just think it saves so much time times and meetings, time, redoing stuff or feeling frustrated, you know, for so many different people, way more efficient.
[00:23:40] So the, the other thing too, that you and I were chit chit chatting a little bit about is, you know, your experience in your new role has been pretty pleasant because you were sharing with me. I hope you, I'm not trying to steal your thunder, but I was intrigued when you said, you know, it's like a.
[00:23:56] Leading by example kind of approach, you know, in terms of communicate frequently. So, you know, regularly, clearly allow for lots of touch points for that communication so that people get that clarity of vision early on. So would you be able to speak to a little bit about how that gets accomplished, both where you are now in the past?
[00:24:15] luc-beadry_recording-1_2022-02-15--t09-21-11pm--guest144083--luc-beaudry: Yeah.
[00:24:16] I actually, even just talking about where I am now, it can even lead services. It's a, you know, in one of the things you were asking before we hit record was, you know, does this permeate levels and, and the answer is apple. Absolutely. Yes. This role modeling is happening from, from the top down.
[00:24:32] The way. So we have a, as organizations do here, we have our, our mantras, our mission, vision values, and, and one of our key leadership drivers is leading with head and heart and, and that's a delicate balance. I love the language. I think it's very compelling and simple and very early on. And it's still the case I've been there for almost three months now.
[00:24:51] And my first impression was like, We actually do it. and so it's, it's that delicate balance of, of being super purposeful on task you know, rigorous in the work that we do very deliberate about things and at the same time being authentic and caring and empathetic. And so part of part of what I was starting to describe to you earlier is, is really. So how that manifests is in a number of ways. So I'm pausing to kind of draw out, maybe what's the most significant so I'll start with my, my bias, which is it manifests in a really good amount of question asking. Right. And so whether it's a CEO town hall, whether it's a call with the senior leadership team.
[00:25:32] There's information sharing. Of course you want to create alignment. But there's this consistent drive and space created for saying so what does this mean to you? How does it impact your teams? What are you hearing on the ground? What do we need to know that we may not know? So that, that, that willingness to, so we're talking again obviously about perspective taking and perspective gathering, but that willingness to hear it.
[00:25:53] and as with many organizations, I'm sure we're not alone in having folks are retired right now. And you know, and we've got a lot of frontline folks who've been, facing the, the, the risks of COVID and dealing with the public on a regular basis to try and provide you know, critical life-saving product to, to Canadians.
[00:26:11] And, and so as a CEO, as a senior leader, when you put it out there, How are you doing? You're going to get some of that back and you need to be able to relate to it. And again, my experience consistently so far has been that that empathy is there and it's like, Okay.
[00:26:25] maybe I was hoping to talk a little bit more about this, that we need to move forward, but this, this is where the ball is.
[00:26:32] And so this is where I'm going to spend some time and. Understanding that that's the way forward, right? If you don't meet people where they are, you can't take them, whereas you need to take them and you can't necessarily even see the picture. So I think that that safe space, the, the, sincere, authentic probing, I think is a big part of it I think a pretty high level of transparency.
[00:26:56] And the other thing I was mentioning to you is kind of. Involved early and often. I've experienced that in, in, in the long, distant past often as a kind of control mechanism. Right? So where senior leadership might want to just have, they're gonna be able to dictate if you will, how things will go to do it well as.
[00:27:15] a leadership group I'm partnered with now is doing requires something a little bit different. And so when their desire to be involved early is so that they can lead so that they can be the voice of. So whether it's succession planning, whether it's employee wellbeing, whether you know, whatever the initiative is, they don't want it to be the people and culture team is launching this, you know, like w we, we play our role in there, but they really want. The leadership community to own that and to cascade it and to engage their teams. And so that's part of the involvement and the other part is, is to help shape it. So back to, you know, the previous discussion around finding out what the outcomes are. I don't get a one-line email asking me to put a proposal together for project X and pitch it at the next executive meeting.
[00:28:03] We're going to have a conversation about it. They're going to be touch points to make sure we understand the desired outcomes. Are we progressing in the Right, direction? Who will, whose input do we need to include here? How do we go about doing that? Who can we skip if they're not as, you know, as relevant to the project so they can have their time assigned elsewhere?
[00:28:20] And so it's it can feel slower at times, but ultimately I think it ensures that we get to the right destination and I wouldn't be surprised if there was a way to research this, to find that we actually get there more quickly as well. But certainly getting to the right.
[00:28:33] destination is already more important than just getting somewhere.
[00:28:37] luc-beadry_recording-1_2022-02-15--t09-21-11pm--61157a395affa4006d0cfc64--lollyg: It's interesting though, because it can be so easy to want to rush to the finish line. I know, I know that's been something for me, my whole life, you know, wanting everything done yesterday a little bit. Right. Very, very like, you know, results oriented and let's go quickly and I've learned, you know, by experience it's do it.
[00:28:52] Well do it thoroughly and it will save you time in the long run, you know, save you from all those redos and, and so on. so we've been talking about this perspective, gathering a lot. That kind of seems to be a theme for us here. And I'm curious because you know, one question that I like to ask guests and you know, sort of part of my work is this concept of embedding and threading language and models throughout, you know, an organizational culture.
[00:29:17] So it's not just. Flavor of the month. What can we throw at the wall? See if it sticks, but you know, something that's that people really get, whether it's your set of values or your vision, or it's, you know, leadership language something that's new that goes beyond lip service that people really understand it.
[00:29:32] They hold to it. They, they, they believe in it. How do you ensure that perspective gathering continues, you know, through that process of embedding communication and having all of those touch points and sign, what are your thoughts on that?
[00:29:47] luc-beadry_recording-1_2022-02-15--t09-21-11pm--guest144083--luc-beaudry: Well, the first thing that?
[00:29:47] comes to mind hearing what you just described, like says. And I think it's more critical these days than it's ever been is the idea of iterating of piloting, of, of testing things out seeing how they land and whether or not they resonate with the people you're intending to help.
[00:30:05] Right. So we need to remember as uh, as talent management professionals, where as a support function, right. Not to do a disservice to the value we bring. But we're enablers. And the value that we know we can bring will only manifest if the people we're trying to bring it to are receptive to it. And if it actually does make their life easier.
[00:30:26] And so when it comes to, to embedding things, I think part of it is as much the same as interpersonal communication is where you can. Adapt the framing adapt the language, adapt the model to their reality so that they don't have to, they don't feel like they're learning something new or this is a different thing. And that they just really see the relevance and the integration of whether it's, again, a tool, a model, a process we're asking them to follow, or that we'd like them to follow in that they can just see.
[00:31:00] The value when they go like, okay, this, even the way it was presented to me, this sounds like it's coming from people who get the reality that I'm dealing with, that they get that, that this is what I need to support my team. And I think that's a huge piece to getting that commitment and buy-in and embedding things in addition to, you know, which we've touched on, but the, the role modeling just the daily integration.
[00:31:22] I mentioned, head and heart leadership. I've already heard that used. And again, not in a kind of contrived but mission dropping language in the middle of a conversation, but just legitimately to support an example of a decision that was made or to help shape a conversation or a decision as a reminder to, to the group and same with the values.
[00:31:44] And you and I have both worked. A multitude of organizations and different industries, different sizes over the years. And, and we get to that glimpse of where it's well-intended, but it doesn't come to fruition and other organizations where it just permeates the culture. They're trying to create their aspirational culture.
[00:32:04] You see it taking shape because they have made it relevant and they have made it accessible. And. Personal opinion here for, like I said, in terms of adapting, the language is sometimes it's, divorcing yourself from the importance of the specific words and sticking with the spirit so that it can be moldable to the audience that, that you're trying to support ultimately.
[00:32:27] And I think that's really important.
[00:32:29] luc-beadry_recording-1_2022-02-15--t09-21-11pm--61157a395affa4006d0cfc64--lollyg: Well, it's like what you were saying earlier, right? Like meet people where they're at, so that you know, adaptation of, of languages and models, like don't roll something out, just, oh, it's the hot new thing. And this is what, where we all need to go. It's really being thoughtful about and involving others, you know, along the way as you, as you put it into place.
[00:32:45] And language is so critical, it precedes behavior and it gives us a common way to communicate. So it sounds like for instance, what you've talked about at Canadian blood services is that. Shared languages there. in terms of how, how the, you know, senior leader group involves themselves because they want to leave.
[00:33:02] And so on, it sounds like there's probably real strength of language happening.
[00:33:07] luc-beadry_recording-1_2022-02-15--t09-21-11pm--guest144083--luc-beaudry: Yeah. a real strength real mindfulness it's thoughtful use of, of language. And you know, it was a thoughtful process to get to this language as well. And to make it fit the organization. And, you know, it's, it's been a I gathered that historically that balance of head and heart hasn't always been there.
[00:33:25] And so the shift for an organization and for a leadership. To go together on that journey and to do so effectively and authentically you know, is one of the things that makes me wish I'd joined too, to see that transition. Cause I think that's fascinating. And you know, part of my work for the last 15 years has been trying to contribute in a small way to organizations achieving that kind of step change.
[00:33:48] and sometimes you, you see, you see that it's going to progress in that direction. That there's that real.
[00:33:53] Willingness courage from usually from senior leadership to be vulnerable and to be the ones to put themselves out there and say, yep, the way I was doing it before, I now understand and realize where it was effective and where it wasn't. And I want to build from that. And I'd like to bring you along with me.
[00:34:12] Right. As opposed to let's send everybody else to training,
[00:34:16] because.
[00:34:17] luc-beadry_recording-1_2022-02-15--t09-21-11pm--61157a395affa4006d0cfc64--lollyg: Yeah. Yeah. Well, and it's an evolution, right? Because it's, it's it's you know, what, what served before may no longer serve? So, so what's next. So it sounds like maybe they were, I don't know what they were leading from. Was it just head for instance, which is so common in our culture
[00:34:30] luc-beadry_recording-1_2022-02-15--t09-21-11pm--guest144083--luc-beaudry: I believe it was a little bit more head. Yes.
[00:34:33] And we're a very scientific organization and in that makes a lot of sense. And. And the balance is critical. Cause it's, you know, it's not at the expense, it's not one of the expense of the other ever. So it's saying like, yes, we want the best of both worlds.
[00:34:45] part of infiltrating more heart into a head environment. And I, I had experienced this with a lot of clients prior to joining CPS. Use data, right? Use use proof points, use experiments and iterations to show those wonderful scientific minds. How, there is value to be had in slowing down as we were talking about a few minutes ago and then those other approaches.
[00:35:11] And I, you know, as I said, I wasn't there to witness it, but I gather there's a lot of, of those rich experiences that happened as a leadership team, as a collective that led to where we are.
[00:35:21] luc-beadry_recording-1_2022-02-15--t09-21-11pm--61157a395affa4006d0cfc64--lollyg: Yeah. Yeah. It sort of became this, you know, we know where we are and we know where we want to go. Right. And, and that's that perfect example of creating, you know, this is, this is the outcome that we are moving towards that head and heart balanced culture. So we're, we're nearing the end of our time. So I'd love to ask you Viva wrap-up question and the one I have for you today, because I know you're somebody who's super curious and always digging into new bodies of knowledge and so on.
[00:35:49] What is a wonderful book or resource or podcast or anything you've been, you've been digging into lately. You'd like to share with us.
[00:35:59] luc-beadry_recording-1_2022-02-15--t09-21-11pm--guest144083--luc-beaudry: good. Gosh, Lisa, you're asking a really important question that. You know, it's a thought leadership question. It's about staying current and ahead of the curve. And I think I'm about to quote ancient resources to you.
[00:36:10] luc-beadry_recording-1_2022-02-15--t09-21-11pm--61157a395affa4006d0cfc64--lollyg: What's your go-to that's okay.
[00:36:12] luc-beadry_recording-1_2022-02-15--t09-21-11pm--guest144083--luc-beaudry: they've, they've served me well for many, many, many, many years now. So to I mean, I can, I can mention things like Bernay brown on vulnerability, for example, obviously very powerful. Right. But but th the. Books and I'll, I'll, I'll cite for you that the bits of those books, that, that for me have become a staple one is not even about work or leadership or anything like that.
[00:36:37] It's called the inner game of tennis.
[00:36:39] luc-beadry_recording-1_2022-02-15--t09-21-11pm--61157a395affa4006d0cfc64--lollyg: Oh, yes. I've read the inner game of work.
[00:36:41] luc-beadry_recording-1_2022-02-15--t09-21-11pm--guest144083--luc-beaudry: Right? So the inner game of tennis by Tim Gallway Timothy. I think mid seventies is when he published that and he was a tennis pro and he was coaching. And it was followed by the inner game of golf and skiing and the inner game of work. which I was really curious when that came out to see how it would translate.
[00:36:57] And it doesn't translate quite as well, but there's some good nuggets in there, in there too. But the two big takeaways from that book one, and I mentioned this in passing earlier saying, well, that's not where the ball is. And he's got. I may not be quoting completely faithfully, but the ball is never where it should be, but it's always where it is. And there's no point in trying to swing at the ball somewhere where it's not. And you know, we have expectations of the world around us and if people and things should be this way, it should work out this way. People should show up prepared for my meeting and how But ignore the reality at your own peril.
[00:37:34] Like that's the real message there is saying, like, and that's another moment where you take pause and you go, geez. I was just going to check in with Lisa to see if there's any project I can support her on this week. And she seems all out of sorts. I have some choices here. I can proceed with my conversation about support on projects or I can go, Hey, are you okay?
[00:37:52] You, you, you don't look your usual epi self. And, and that's me. Where the ball is. Right. And I may be misreading the situation, but I get to do something with that. So for me, that was a big part of it. And the associated, I think it's in the same chapter piece that goes along with that as a, an exercise he does in the tennis space, which is all about noticing we, we use well beyond sports, the, keep your eye on. her out of the box is point, at least in a sports context was that's boring as heck. And it's really hard to sustain. So ki would ask his students to let him know which way the ball was spinning when it was coming at them. Right. Or you would have. Say out loud bounce. Every time the ball touched the ground hit.
[00:38:31] Every time it hit the racket, what do you need to do to do that? You need to keep your eye on the ball, but you're noticing things that are really important. And all of a sudden, somebody who's never held a racket before is having a successful rally within a few minutes, because they've got the right information coming in.
[00:38:46] So those, those takeaways from that book for me have just been really, really
[00:38:51] luc-beadry_recording-1_2022-02-15--t09-21-11pm--61157a395affa4006d0cfc64--lollyg: Again, it's changing. I did, instead of just like, I've got to focus on this damn ball, it's, it's focused on how it's spinning something about the ball, which, which serves the same purpose.
[00:39:01] luc-beadry_recording-1_2022-02-15--t09-21-11pm--guest144083--luc-beaudry: Yeah. And a great example from the inner game of work, if I can sneak that in and this, this will tell you how dated that that piece of research was as well. It was worked with T and T operators at the time who were literally connecting people on the phone. So maybe some listeners won't even know what that means.
[00:39:17] We can talk separately, tell you how old I am, but they were having really poor feedback from customers, even though we're talking about a few second interactions saying I'm trying to be put through to Calgary. And the exercise he gave them was just, you know, have a little thing in front of you and whenever you're interacting with somebody or hearing somebody on the phone, just notice and note on a scale from one to 10, what they're, angry versus happy level is, or urgent versus relaxed level is.
[00:39:44] And by noticing. They would respond accordingly. You're not going to ask somebody how their weekend was, if they seem to be in a rush. Right. So go where they are. And the other one, and I'll make it.
[00:39:53] quick. It's called the leaders. So it's a book, as you might imagine about leadership communication. The authors, I believe were Ron Crossland and Boyd Clark.
[00:40:02] It's entirely possible. I've mixed up the first and last name is there. And and while this is not the main body of the book they speak about four fatal assumptions that we make when interacting and communicating with others. And over the years, I've just turned those into five fatal assumptions, which.
[00:40:17] are healthy reminders for me as a listener and as a communicator on an ongoing basis. And Those are we, we often assume that we've been heard. We assume we've been understood. We assume the person cares. We assume the person agrees and we assume they will act. and we sometime, I mean, imagine if that first one is not met, right.
[00:40:35] If the message didn't actually get through for what ever reason The rest is kind of pointless. And so it's a, it's a really, it's a slow-down mechanism to just say, how do I verify. That I've communicated this in a way that has been understood and clear. And do I actually need agreement in this case?
[00:40:53] Or am I just looking for compliance? And so it just it's pause for reflection about what's the purpose of this communication. And so it goes back to our conversation around buy-in around embedding around rallying people behind a, whether it's a model of language or for that matter of significant.
[00:41:11] luc-beadry_recording-1_2022-02-15--t09-21-11pm--61157a395affa4006d0cfc64--lollyg: Those are what I don't care how old those resources are that are really, really compelling. and it makes sense given the nature of our conversation today. So thank you so much for sharing those really, really appreciate it. And as always, you and I could talk for hours, I'm sure. So it's just such a pleasure.
[00:41:29] Thank you very much.
[00:41:31] luc-beadry_recording-1_2022-02-15--t09-21-11pm--guest144083--luc-beaudry: Oh, it's been fantastic. I'm glad to be here, Lisa. Thanks so much.
[00:41:34] luc-beadry_recording-1_2022-02-15--t09-21-11pm--61157a395affa4006d0cfc64--lollyg: Thank you.
