[00:00:00] If you've been feeling a bit at sea about how to begin or go deeper with your organizations DEI efforts. This is a must listen episode. You'll hear insights about working with leaders and CEOs who have good intentions yet need practical ways to help their organizations move beyond performative activity and into meaningful transplant.
[00:01:58] For me. My guest is Rachel Baptist. She's the founder of lumen consulting group, where she's an inclusion and cultural advisor to her clients. In addition to her passion and expertise in the area of DEI. Rachel also has a background in corporate social responsibility, and she has a unique ability to help organizations connect the dots between these two important areas of organizational culture.
[00:02:23] This was a deeply interesting conversation for me, and I know it will be for you as well. Enjoy.
[00:02:28]
[00:02:32] rachel-baptiste_recording-1_2022-04-13--t02-26-49pm--61157a395affa4006d0cfc64--lollyg: welcome back to talent management truths. I'm your host, Lisa Mitchell. And today I'm joined by Rachel Baptist, who is the founder and CEO of lumen consulting. Welcome to the show, Rachel.
[00:02:44] rachel-baptiste_recording-1_2022-04-13--t02-26-49pm--guest717907--rachel: Hi, Lisa. Thank you. It's a pleasure to.
[00:02:47] rachel-baptiste_recording-1_2022-04-13--t02-26-49pm--61157a395affa4006d0cfc64--lollyg: I'd love for you to share with, with me and the listeners a little bit about your path and what got you into the work you're doing.
[00:02:55] rachel-baptiste_recording-1_2022-04-13--t02-26-49pm--guest717907--rachel: Absolutely. So I've been in the corporate world for a number of years without aging myself, let's say 15 plus years. And had the, good fortune To have experienced a really successful career and have worked across many organizations, many industries but also experienced a number of promotions.
[00:03:18] Throughout my career, I've saw I've gone, from that managerial supervisory level to the C-suite essentially I got a seat at the table and, What I realized, and I became a corporate coach and executive coach a number of years ago. And it was really about my experience as a somewhat introverted but also a racialized leader, a black female leader you know, trying to navigate the corporate space and the corporate system.
[00:03:49] And realizing that I did not necessarily fit the typical model the typical profile of a successful leader. Often it was the loudest voice, the biggest personality in the room, but also you had your traditional white, older male leaders who were being tapped on the shoulder and. What I realized was I needed to give voice to those individuals who looked like me or also did not fit that model either.
[00:04:20] And how do I help them find their voice and navigate the corporate system without changing who they are. At their core how do I help them hold onto their authenticity hold onto their, what makes them unique and help them find their voice in an organization or in a system that was not necessarily built for them to thrive.
[00:04:43] And so that was really the reason why I got into coaching and then on the consulting side, had. How to see that the table had had several leadership roles recognizing that senior leaders aren't coming to work to make bad decisions when it comes to their employees. they're coming with the best of intentions, but they don't necessarily know what or what to do or what to say when it comes to diversity, equity and inclusion. And so for me, having moved from the corporate space into consulting, I really want to start off by helping leaders understand this isn't about blame and shame.
[00:05:23] This is about helping. Them to understand the lived experiences of racialized, marginalized communities, employees understand from a capability standpoint, what is diversity, equity and inclusion? What's that mean on an individual, on a group, on an organizational level help to build multi-year.
[00:05:47] Meaningful sustainable strategies and less around the performative activity. And side of the desk activity that we tend to see when it comes to this work.
[00:05:58] rachel-baptiste_recording-1_2022-04-13--t02-26-49pm--61157a395affa4006d0cfc64--lollyg: Okay, so, so much richness in what you've described. So, it almost sounds by the way, as an aside, almost like it was kind of a purpose driven calling, right. That caused you to, to choose to step into coaching and then consulting.
[00:06:13] rachel-baptiste_recording-1_2022-04-13--t02-26-49pm--guest717907--rachel: Absolutely. And recognizing that from a diversity equity and inclusion standpoint, it starts with the leader doing that internal work on understanding how your identity and your bias and your assumptions and your own lived experiences informs your leadership impact. How you show up in your organizations, but then also, how are you then able to build an inclusive organization where every single individual, no matter who they are, and at what level of the organization they are, are feel safe and feel comfortable showing up as their unique selves, but then to then say, okay, We're taking care of our own house.
[00:07:00] Now let's look outward in terms of the impact that we're having on the community, in which we do business. are we putting my corporate social responsibility hat on? we leading our community and society in which we are members of better than how we found it? Whether it be from an environment standpoint community getting standpoint And really helping our communities thrive.
[00:07:25] rachel-baptiste_recording-1_2022-04-13--t02-26-49pm--61157a395affa4006d0cfc64--lollyg: Yeah. So just as a backdrop, I want to share with, with our listeners, because I think it's, it's so fascinating. So you've got this, this background as an executive and, and, you know, talent management and, and leading DEI and. Corporate social responsibility. And you did a, I'm not sure it was at a diploma program at UFT university of Toronto
[00:07:45] rachel-baptiste_recording-1_2022-04-13--t02-26-49pm--guest717907--rachel: It was a post-grad
[00:07:46] rachel-baptiste_recording-1_2022-04-13--t02-26-49pm--61157a395affa4006d0cfc64--lollyg: post-grad program. And now you're, I think you're involved in, in helping them with the, the design and so on. so you've got this unique perspective around how there's that piece of. Starting with the leader, the behaviors, and so on the biases, and then starting to look into the organization, how do I, make sure everybody's taken care of, and now it's going beyond the organization with the CSR corporate social responsibility hat on.
[00:08:12] So it's like, there's these layers going? So I'm kind of fascinated to understand a little bit more about this. Do you have maybe an example that's that walks us through each of those stages, like, like just, you know, somebody you can think of who first it was around them getting a handle on their own, how they showed up as a, as a senior leader, somebody you were able to help and then how they started to turn their eye to the organization at large, then beyond.
[00:08:40] rachel-baptiste_recording-1_2022-04-13--t02-26-49pm--guest717907--rachel: speaking a bit more broadly around the leaders that I work with specifically. And So when I go into an organization, I'm either working with a CRO or CEO or someone on, on the leadership team. It can be a bit daunting and also threatening for them.
[00:08:56] Here they are with the best of intentions they've been successful in their career. They've worked hard. And now they're hearing, okay, they've, they're benefiting from power and privilege. And they now need to look at themselves in the mirror, mirror and question how they arrived at this place in their career.
[00:09:17] This, this place of success and start to pull back the layers around their identity. And that, as I said, could be threatening and it also involves around. And so, as, as I had said in the beginning, you know, the, one of the first things I say, it's, it's not about blame and shame, but it's about helping you understand how your lived experience as a non racialized, non marginalized individual.
[00:09:43] May be impacting the lens through which you are viewing your organization and your ability to lead. And so really helping individuals do that in internal journey and questioning and curiosity about their identity, but then looking at. You know, looking at it, it's not just about leisure leadership, but it's also about culture.
[00:10:11] It's about how differences are embraced. It's about how talent decisions are made and how talent is empowered from the time that you are. You know, are you uh, casting a wide net from a talent acquisition standpoint to how you're onboarding to? Are you making differentiated development decisions around diverse talent?
[00:10:32] How are you identifying talent? And then also are you enabling diverse thinking across the organization?
[00:10:39] rachel-baptiste_recording-1_2022-04-13--t02-26-49pm--61157a395affa4006d0cfc64--lollyg: how do you enable diverse thinking in your experience? What are some ways you help organizations do that?
[00:10:44] rachel-baptiste_recording-1_2022-04-13--t02-26-49pm--guest717907--rachel: So it starts with representation. You know, it starts with ensuring that there are diverse voices and individuals from diverse Backgrounds experiences cultural backgrounds that have a seat at the table in key decision-making roles that employees can see themselves in their leaders.
[00:11:08] Not only to see that it is possible. To get there, but also to trust that those leaders understand their experiences understands their perspective and is thinking of them and giving voice to them when they're not in the room. And so representation is absolutely one way to bring in diverse voices the table.
[00:11:32] way is You know, how are you engaging and asking for input you know, making Processes and structures that and communication channels that?
[00:11:43] enable individuals at every level in the organization to have a voice to speak up. So that's when transparency becomes very important to be able to bring in diverse perspectives And help and be comfortable with your workforce challenging and asking questions.
[00:12:05] rachel-baptiste_recording-1_2022-04-13--t02-26-49pm--61157a395affa4006d0cfc64--lollyg: I would imagine that that's, that's a huge source of discomfort, right? Is, is, are we going to be equipped to manage that? How do we navigate it? is, what are your thoughts around, how people might approach that more? Open, positive way for, for best impact.
[00:12:21] rachel-baptiste_recording-1_2022-04-13--t02-26-49pm--guest717907--rachel: I think first it's important to note that this isn't overnight, right? So, Having diversity equity inclusion become part of your DNA is a multi-year journey. And so first it's one just being able to understand what's our north star and understanding what is the commitment we want to make around DEI and how are we communicating that to the organization, every level in multiple channels and multiple ways, and how are we inviting? Individuals at every level into the conversation and it also starts with a level of vulnerability. part of that commitment is are we willing to look into the dark of our organization, into the dark shadows and be open and transparency around what the reality is? are we today? So even before we can get to that, you know, three year, five year north star it's, let's just look at ourselves in the mirror today as individuals and collectively, and what is the reality, and to truly understand what the reality is.
[00:13:35] You've got to ask your people, you've got to connect with them. A hard. Centered human level to understand what their life experience is and to listen without the need to defend to solution, but just to fully empathize and acknowledge what their reality.
[00:13:59] rachel-baptiste_recording-1_2022-04-13--t02-26-49pm--61157a395affa4006d0cfc64--lollyg: listen without the need to defend. I think. Is is powerful and, and hard for many, right? Again, when people are well intentioned to start with it's it's you could see how, when they learn, things are more challenging for some, some people than they realized. hard to hear.
[00:14:17] rachel-baptiste_recording-1_2022-04-13--t02-26-49pm--guest717907--rachel: Absolutely. And I think that's where, you know, one of my roles is as a consultant and you know, let's actually let me throw away the word consultant and use the word partner is my clients. When I initially talked to them, it's just don't know where to start.
[00:14:34] rachel-baptiste_recording-1_2022-04-13--t02-26-49pm--61157a395affa4006d0cfc64--lollyg: Yeah.
[00:14:34] rachel-baptiste_recording-1_2022-04-13--t02-26-49pm--guest717907--rachel: we, we, we know this work is important.
[00:14:36] We want to do things right. We don't want to trip ourselves up nor do we want to erode trust because we know once trust is lost, it is very hard and near to impossible to regain. And so I often say to my clients, don't go this. Don't try to do this on your own and figure this out. As you go take a partner bring an expert in such as myself and also be ready to resource this work.
[00:15:08] It isn't again, and initiative that It's not an afterthought. It's not an academic exercise and it's not a side of a desk exercise. It truly is heavy lifting. But it's also a rewarding
[00:15:23] rachel-baptiste_recording-1_2022-04-13--t02-26-49pm--61157a395affa4006d0cfc64--lollyg: There's almost like three facets to that that came to mind as you were talking, it's like, if you're going to do this, if you're serious, get. Resource it and be patient. Those are three key things. I mean, I, I just, just, you know, that's what sort of sticking out to me. I mean, this is not, it's not easy, it's not fast.
[00:15:41] It is important. And it's worthwhile,
[00:15:44] rachel-baptiste_recording-1_2022-04-13--t02-26-49pm--guest717907--rachel: It is absolutely an even from a leadership standpoint, I would say it takes humility. It takes curiosity. It takes grit,
[00:15:52] rachel-baptiste_recording-1_2022-04-13--t02-26-49pm--61157a395affa4006d0cfc64--lollyg: um,
[00:15:53] rachel-baptiste_recording-1_2022-04-13--t02-26-49pm--guest717907--rachel: It takes boldness and it takes time.
[00:15:56] rachel-baptiste_recording-1_2022-04-13--t02-26-49pm--61157a395affa4006d0cfc64--lollyg: Oh,
[00:15:57] yes.
[00:15:58] rachel-baptiste_recording-1_2022-04-13--t02-26-49pm--guest717907--rachel: you're going to run into roadblocks. This isn't going to be easy or a cakewalk, but know that you need to push and per persevere through challenge the status quo, challenge yourself and stay the course and show that you're staying the course to the organization.
[00:16:16] it starts with having metrics and being transparent and accountable about your progress and your not going to hit everyone. And you're not going to, you know, get to without as quickly as you initially wanted to. But it's about how do you put.
[00:16:34] stakes in the ground in terms of what you're trying to achieve and is it measuring.
[00:16:40] And are you going to report and communicate it out to ensure that people are, are, are trusting that you're taking that meaningful action?
[00:16:49] rachel-baptiste_recording-1_2022-04-13--t02-26-49pm--61157a395affa4006d0cfc64--lollyg: W, what would you say is the biggest or more, most frequent mistake? Easy to make mistake, not calling people out, but like the one where people do trip up. I mean, we trip up as humans all the time. Right? Let our inner critics get the best of us, you know, put our foot in our mouth and so on.
[00:17:06] But when you're working with organizations and they're, they're getting started with their, within that first year of that multi-year journey, what would you say is. The biggest mistake or surprise they encounter,
[00:17:16] rachel-baptiste_recording-1_2022-04-13--t02-26-49pm--guest717907--rachel: making the assumption that this is just about hiring more people.
[00:17:24] rachel-baptiste_recording-1_2022-04-13--t02-26-49pm--61157a395affa4006d0cfc64--lollyg: ah,
[00:17:25] rachel-baptiste_recording-1_2022-04-13--t02-26-49pm--guest717907--rachel: Or hiring more people from, the spectrum and range in dimensions of diversity. And I would say it, as I said before representation matters, but what is required is a systemic.
[00:17:44] Approach, it's looking at how you do business. It's looking at your products and services, your supplier, diversity your processes, your structures, your systems and ensuring that you are actively pursuing, systemic bias. And ensuring that you
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[00:18:04] rachel-baptiste_recording-1_2022-04-13--t02-26-49pm--guest717907--rachel: are Building in and inclusion in every single thing that you do.
[00:18:10] And so it goes beyond the diversity, monthly potluck or diversity calendar, or recognizing a cultural holiday. is really about The system, the ecosystem I like to call it and the environment and the cultural identity the employee experience that you're creating and ultimately the experience too, from an inclusion standpoint.
[00:18:38] then as I had said earlier then how are you looking outwards in terms of how they're showing up in your community as an inclusive organization?
[00:18:47] rachel-baptiste_recording-1_2022-04-13--t02-26-49pm--61157a395affa4006d0cfc64--lollyg: Yes. So I really appreciate the examples you gave there about moving beyond sort of. Tick boxes, performative measures, right. Or seeing it as a, as a, a single thing or, but really, really seeing it as something that needs to be embedded systemically. Right. Really an ecosystem of, of effort and work to make change happen.
[00:19:09] So I also wanted to just highlight for listeners too, that, you know, make sure that it doesn't go unnoticed. So Rachel, you were saying, you know, it's creating this ecosystem, this deep systemic approach
[00:19:20] and the ecosystem,
[00:19:21] you know, impacts the employee experience. And that's something that all of us, you know, on the show or listening see is very important.
[00:19:29] Right. You know, as, as, as people in talent in learning development and HR. I often say the employee experience drives that customer experience. So I appreciate how you've kind of drawn that line here for us, starting with the ecosystem, how the organization is set up, how the systems work across the board from how you pick your suppliers, not just your employees, right?
[00:19:51] It's it's, it's really throughout all processes. So let's, let's turn our lens now to that CSR piece. Let's assume for a moment, an organization has been doing the work and has, has made strides. It's still is still on the path, but has made strides around their DEI efforts, creating that ecosystem. And now they want to say, okay, how are we impacting the community around us?
[00:20:15] What are some examples of what they might be considering looking at?
[00:20:19] rachel-baptiste_recording-1_2022-04-13--t02-26-49pm--guest717907--rachel: I think there's a number of ways, but for the purposes of our discussion today I'll keep it focused. we know from a corporate social responsibility and sustainability standpoint that Racialized marginalized members of our community and society are disproportionately impacted by climate change by food insecurity, by economic and legal in equities by racism.
[00:20:49] And so organizations and I, you know, I think about some of the clients I've worked with some of the tangible. Practical ways where they can really elevate the work in this space is through community giving and also employee volunteerism. And so are you giving back to the community and helping it thrive and helping it's wellbeing?
[00:21:15] Whether it be through monetary donations or depending on the service or the product that you provide being able to transfer knowledge, expertise to community grassroots organization. Having a giving back program for your employees, where they're spending time, feet on the ground, hands in the dirt, for lack of better word helping and working alongside those grassroots organizations.
[00:21:47] To volunteer and give back. And so those are some practical ways. You know, I have clients or even thinking about my capacity corporate experience coming from the food service industry and being able to support food insecurity into indigenous communities is, was a very rewarding and impactful way in which.
[00:22:10] The organization was able to really show up as a significant purpose driven corporate. So.
[00:22:18] rachel-baptiste_recording-1_2022-04-13--t02-26-49pm--61157a395affa4006d0cfc64--lollyg: Oh, yes. Purpose driven corporate citizen. that phrase rings true for me, because I think that's kind of a an illustration of what CSR is in a nutshell. What would you say.
[00:22:30] rachel-baptiste_recording-1_2022-04-13--t02-26-49pm--guest717907--rachel: Absolutely. It's it's, it's recognizing that we all serve a purpose our David Day, transactional operational product services work that we do, that we are all members of a wider community and society. And that we are all part of a human race. And so, Being able to connect in a heart-centered human centered way to one another to say, we are all in this together.
[00:23:03] And if one of us isn't thriving, none of us is thriving. And so having that sense of not just responsibility, but accountability in playing. Significant and meaningful role in elevating and changing this, the narrative around how we take care of one of one another. it's not just about one individual in the community, but it's also around the organizations corporate organizations and the role that they play.
[00:23:36] Helping our, communities and society as a whole
[00:23:39] exist in a very positive and healthy, healthy way.
[00:23:44] rachel-baptiste_recording-1_2022-04-13--t02-26-49pm--61157a395affa4006d0cfc64--lollyg: Beautifully put appreciated, you know what you said, if one of us isn't thriving, none of us are. it made me sit up there. Right. It's powerful. So when you think about this intersection where you work between DEI and NCSR, what would you say is your most important piece of advice for somebody, you know, a talent leader?
[00:24:08] within an organization right now, who's, who's feeling a little stuck around this, around their role with it. What are some resources, some research they could do to help them start to make meaning of it all.
[00:24:21] rachel-baptiste_recording-1_2022-04-13--t02-26-49pm--guest717907--rachel: You know, I, often I say. Walk before you run. and I had this discussion with a new client recently Where after a number of co conversations recognize that they need some foundational work, just some common language around, you know, what do we, what is the difference between diversity, equity and inclusion?
[00:24:43] You know, that acronym gets thrown around a lot,
[00:24:46] rachel-baptiste_recording-1_2022-04-13--t02-26-49pm--61157a395affa4006d0cfc64--lollyg: And the some organizations it's EDI, not DEA, you know, like it's or it's
[00:24:49] DEI
[00:24:50] rachel-baptiste_recording-1_2022-04-13--t02-26-49pm--guest717907--rachel: Yeah.
[00:24:51] rachel-baptiste_recording-1_2022-04-13--t02-26-49pm--61157a395affa4006d0cfc64--lollyg: as a, you know, it really depends.
[00:24:53] rachel-baptiste_recording-1_2022-04-13--t02-26-49pm--guest717907--rachel: Exactly or to IDE a being accessibility. And so it's what, what does this mean and what does it mean for your organization? What is unconscious bias? What is microaggression? And so getting that foundation piece work I don't want to say completed because it's never completed. It's an ongoing.
[00:25:15] learning and evolution, but recognizing that, that foundational work needs to happen in education needs to happen before then moving to recognizing current states. And so being able to do you have the date. Do you know, representation at different levels, different roles? So both quantitative and qualitative
[00:25:37] data, the qualitative being the lived experiences of individuals in your organization. And then in terms of just pulling external resources, which was the question that you asked you know, there's a number of industry professionals and white papers around power and privilege around white fragility around how to assess DEI within your organizations.
[00:26:02] I'm thinking about the global DEI benchmarks for example which is provided through the global DNI council. And that is an assessment that measures across over 200 benchmarks.
[00:26:15] rachel-baptiste_recording-1_2022-04-13--t02-26-49pm--61157a395affa4006d0cfc64--lollyg: I'll put the link in the show notes for that then.
[00:26:18] rachel-baptiste_recording-1_2022-04-13--t02-26-49pm--guest717907--rachel: yeah. So there's a number of resources out there, but I would say is just start the conversation with an expert in the, in the field.
[00:26:28] Because I think organization, they just don't know what they don't know. And it's really about starting the dialogue and getting a foundational level of understanding. And understanding the scope of this topic and that it's complex. And I think once you can anchor in that foundation, then you can decide where you need to put your attention and resources and focus to move forward, to getting a baseline. Understanding what the current reality is, but then how do you determine what that north star and long-term strategy is?
[00:27:07] rachel-baptiste_recording-1_2022-04-13--t02-26-49pm--61157a395affa4006d0cfc64--lollyg: Well, and, and I think it is such a key thing that you just mentioned, right? People don't know what they don't know if they've got no experience in it and there's no shame or blame.
[00:27:15] rachel-baptiste_recording-1_2022-04-13--t02-26-49pm--guest717907--rachel: Exactly.
[00:27:16] rachel-baptiste_recording-1_2022-04-13--t02-26-49pm--61157a395affa4006d0cfc64--lollyg: just is what it is. I mean, organizations spend, oh God, so much money. If you think about the implementation of an HCM system or a new LMS and, you know, bring in external consultants to help with that kind of planning and implementation.
[00:27:30] And this is really no different in terms of complexity. It's just, we're talking about humans, not technology. Right. so resources. You know, to the degree that you can remember that it's a, multi-year, it's an incremental piece over time. And starting with that foundation is so, so key you know, foundational language and someone that you mentioned.
[00:27:48] I'm always fascinated by. The importance of language and how creating a common one and embedding and threading it throughout an organization has such impact, right. For getting people galvanized around a particular way of being or thinking. So,
[00:28:03] rachel-baptiste_recording-1_2022-04-13--t02-26-49pm--guest717907--rachel: absolutely words matter. And the words can either enable or impede an organization's ability to build trust. And to build an environment where everyone feels safe to show up as, as their true selves. And so language absolutely matters.
[00:28:25] rachel-baptiste_recording-1_2022-04-13--t02-26-49pm--61157a395affa4006d0cfc64--lollyg: Yeah, very important that we pay attention to that. Well, we are at the end of our time together, it's just flowing.
[00:28:33] rachel-baptiste_recording-1_2022-04-13--t02-26-49pm--guest717907--rachel: wow.
[00:28:34] rachel-baptiste_recording-1_2022-04-13--t02-26-49pm--61157a395affa4006d0cfc64--lollyg: And we, you know, we got, you might have to have you come back and talk somewhere. This was just such a pleasure. And thank you so much for pulling back the curtains on the work you do.
[00:28:42] And, and especially that, that piece around. DEI and its connection to CSR. That was a really fascinating for me. I learned a lot. Thank you very much.
[00:28:52] rachel-baptiste_recording-1_2022-04-13--t02-26-49pm--guest717907--rachel: Oh, thank you for asking me. It was fun.
