[00:00:00] Are you intrigued by the idea of employee led development of truly partnering with employees related to their performance and develop. Then you're in for a treat with this episode, learn the role of empathy and design thinking in creating talent systems that put employees in the driver's seat of their own careers and performance.
[00:01:58] My guest is Pete Needham. He's the VP of people and culture at next dimension. And it managed services provider. In his role, Pete is deeply involved in all aspects of talent development. And after many years in a very large company, he's enjoying his time in a smaller organization where he has embedded some truly innovative approaches to employee experience.
[00:02:20] I genuinely enjoyed hearing about Pete's focus on innovation and design thinking. You can really hear his passion for what he does come through in this interview. Thanks for listening.
[00:02:30] pete-needham-march-23_recording-1_2022-03-23--t06-47-49pm--61157a395affa4006d0cfc64--lollyg: welcome back to talent management truths. I'm happy to be here today with Pete Needham, who is the VP of people and culture at next dimensions. Peter, welcome to the show today.
[00:02:47] pete-needham-march-23_recording-1_2022-03-23--t06-47-49pm--guest432069--pete: hello, Lisa. And I'm very, very pleased to be here. Thank you for her.
[00:02:51] pete-needham-march-23_recording-1_2022-03-23--t06-47-49pm--61157a395affa4006d0cfc64--lollyg: My pleasure, my pleasure. So I thought, you know, as we get started, as, as I typically do, I'd love for you to share with, with me and the listeners a little bit about who you are and what you do at next time.
[00:03:03] pete-needham-march-23_recording-1_2022-03-23--t06-47-49pm--guest432069--pete: Okay. A little bit of background on Pete Needham. You can probably tell from my accent that time English the first part of my career was spent very happily with Unilever Unilever research in the UK. I actually came across to Canada in 2000. And worked initially with Unilever, Canada, and then branched out, wanted to try, you know, having been in big corporate wanted to try maybe a different flavor of organization and you know, the last 10 years or so have been spent very happily in to medium-sized managed services providers within the it and
[00:03:37] pete-needham-march-23_recording-1_2022-03-23--t06-47-49pm--61157a395affa4006d0cfc64--lollyg: Excellent. Thank you for that. So, you've really done some interesting things. Over the last four years, we were talking in the green room, some really, really innovative interesting approaches to The type of talent initiatives that everybody can relate to.
[00:03:51] Right? Like how do we evaluate performance? How do we help employees with career pathing, internal mobility? How do we approach the employee experience and make it as, as, as best as it can be given that? I always say the employee experience drives the customer experience. So, let's maybe dig into some of the examples of things that you've implemented there successfully, because I think there's a lot of food for thought for the listeners.
[00:04:14] Perhaps a good place to start would be around the abolishment. I love it sounds so English the way, but we abolished annual appraisals. So you abolish the old annual appraisal and you move to something you call monthly development plants. Tell me about that.
[00:04:28] pete-needham-march-23_recording-1_2022-03-23--t06-47-49pm--guest432069--pete: it's just that, you know, my experience personally, over the years, and many other people's experience of annual appraisals was something that they dreaded and not something that people easily got any value out of. I mean, you know, if you're anything like me, I can hardly remember what I did last week. So trying to put together a meaningful annual appraisal either.
[00:04:47] Of a, a subordinate or for myself after 12 months was really, really difficult. And I think most people, you know, really felt that this was something that we, we must there surely must be a better way. There surely must be a better way. And so what we did at next dimension was to introduce these monthly development plans so that we were having a continuous conversation or continuous in the sense of at least once a month in where we can sit down with each employee.
[00:05:15] And their line manager and talk in an adult and mature way about feedback, things that are going well, how they're feeling. About being part of this entity called next dimension, is it working for them? You know, what would make it better? And then we cover there are quarterly smart targets with their learning and development plans.
[00:05:36] There is potential and performance discussions, but it really, we encourage our employees in that monthly development plan meeting. And it's a phrase that I'll use all the time talent. Is it? Don't tell me what I want to hear tally as it is. It's really, really important. So when you Institute something like a monthly development plan, Lisa, it doesn't work brilliantly or perfectly right off the bat because the very first time you run it, the employee is sitting in a room with the line manager and the VP of people and culture.
[00:06:07] And the VP of people in culture is saying, come on, I want you to tell it as it is. Now how easy is that for an employee the
[00:06:13] very first time You do it, trust is built over a period of time. And so it's really, really important that you consistently the monthly development plans in a consistent manner, that the employees therefore become more and more confident and feel that they can trust that process.
[00:06:33] And it does take time, but it's all about personal and professional develop.
[00:06:37] pete-needham-march-23_recording-1_2022-03-23--t06-47-49pm--61157a395affa4006d0cfc64--lollyg: Right. So, there's a lot that you're packing into these monthly development plans. Is there, is there like a standard consistent structure that's that's utilized like an agenda to make sure you cover all of those things or, or is it more one month focuses on X and then month two is Y
[00:06:53] pete-needham-march-23_recording-1_2022-03-23--t06-47-49pm--guest432069--pete: Oh, great question. I have what I call the MDP toolbox. So when we're training people in the process who were about to go through it for the first time we talk about where we'll dig into the toolbox and bring out the appropriate tools, depending on the time of. So we have job skills profiles. So if you imagine a job description, being a written, summary of one or two pages of the, the role and what's expected a job skills profile is more of a graphical representation of what we expected at different levels, bronze, silver, gold, and platinum for a given role in the organization.
[00:07:29] So we will bring those in and out. We have. Technical skills matrices for our technical staff. Cause remember we're in the it industry. We have our core values, the uh, 10 ultimate guide, characteristics of professionalism as we call them. We refer to them once every six months, we do go through a process in which we evaluate.
[00:07:48] The employees in terms of performance and potential in which they evaluate themselves, the line manager evaluates them. And then we have a discussion and we work out, you know, where we think we are based on examples. And it's really, really important that we do that because I think one of the tangible benefits of meeting monthly is hopefully the employee, the line manager always know where they stand.
[00:08:13] If, if we were meeting monthly and an employee feels, I still don't really know where I stand, then the process is failing and that's all you can really do for people in the sense of being honest about feedback, also recognizing that through the work we did on design thinking, we w we must be aware of the of empathy, you know, just because an employee has a different evaluation of their performance or their potential doesn't mean that.
[00:08:39] It's just different and we must try and put ourselves in their shoes and understand the world from that.
[00:08:45] pete-needham-march-23_recording-1_2022-03-23--t06-47-49pm--61157a395affa4006d0cfc64--lollyg: I agree. And we're going to dig into that empathy piece some more. Cause there's some really interesting thinking here to, to dive into you say that you look at the performance and potential aspect with the employee and the line manager and yourself, does that feed into any higher level organization, wide succession planning strategy or talent review?
[00:09:05] pete-needham-march-23_recording-1_2022-03-23--t06-47-49pm--guest432069--pete: We've just started to work on that to a larger extent. maybe, hopefully we'll get time to talk about balanced scorecards and strategy at some point. But within the balanced scorecard, we have designed an organizational structure. That looks a little bit different to most other organizations, because it marries with the balanced scorecard, strategic initiatives.
[00:09:25] In other words, those projects that we've got to achieve over the next 12 months to ensure that we're on track with our strategy. And it's really, really important that we do that. And as part of that process, Rather than go with job titles and roles and grades, we've identified what we call strategic tears.
[00:09:44] In other words, people in the organization who are natural born collaborators who have a high level of emotional
[00:09:52] pete-needham-march-23_recording-1_2022-03-23--t06-47-49pm--61157a395affa4006d0cfc64--lollyg: okay.
[00:09:53] pete-needham-march-23_recording-1_2022-03-23--t06-47-49pm--guest432069--pete: who can deal with complexity have a passion and a hunger. we've, actually done that on an, on a scale. Tier one to tier six. And when we have a strategic initiative the balanced scorecard or the strategy planning sessions, then pick cross-functional teams depending on the level of strategic tier that we feel that initiative needs.
[00:10:15] Now that sounds like a lot of buzzwords or mixed together, but actually when, when you know it intimately, it really, really works.
[00:10:23] pete-needham-march-23_recording-1_2022-03-23--t06-47-49pm--61157a395affa4006d0cfc64--lollyg: Well, it reminds me a little bit of, self formed work teams, you know, like, like the, the, the, with an agile development, agile leadership, like that concept of, What's the composition we need for this particular team in terms of strategic and, you know, doing and tactical thinking and so on as well.
[00:10:40] So it sounds like you're, you know, you're actively figuring out what's the right blend for anyone
[00:10:45] initiative.
[00:10:45] pete-needham-march-23_recording-1_2022-03-23--t06-47-49pm--guest432069--pete: you know, I think at the end of the daily, so the way I would describe it is if you look to any ordinary, if I, if that's the right word organization chart, they're two dimensional. Ours would be more like a cute.
[00:10:56] pete-needham-march-23_recording-1_2022-03-23--t06-47-49pm--61157a395affa4006d0cfc64--lollyg: Mm. Okay. Can you build on that for us?
[00:10:59] pete-needham-march-23_recording-1_2022-03-23--t06-47-49pm--guest432069--pete: Yeah, because you know, you've got roles within the organization. You've got the balance scorecard that has produced a strategy, which has strategic initiatives. And then you have the strategic tears. So you can't think of it as a two dimensional organization chart that people would ordinary ordinarily recognize because again, where we're marrying the strategy.
[00:11:22] With the, the S the teams then picking cross-functional teams based on the strategic tears. And again, I apologize, cause it sounds a bit buzzwordy, but it is a very different way of looking at it. But if you think, back to what makes strategic tear, somebody can deal with complexity has a passion and a hunger for knowledge.
[00:11:43] High emotional intelligence born collaborator. Those people are easily identifiable because we meet with them once a month and we have meaningful discussions. But when we go into those, MDPs, it's not a hierarchical relationship. It's not about, you know, peak the VP the line manager and the employee, soon as that door closes, or as soon as the camera's on in the MD.
[00:12:06] It is that, in other words, we are partners in this discussion. Nobody, nobody pulls rank.
[00:12:13] pete-needham-march-23_recording-1_2022-03-23--t06-47-49pm--61157a395affa4006d0cfc64--lollyg: Right. So just, but people can't can't see you. So just, just to visualize Pete he's, he's kind of balancing his hands together, showing it's like, we're on equal footing. There's no hierarchy that. So it's really interesting because you know, it's a company of 50, so it is a smaller scale company.
[00:12:29] And you've really had the pleasure of building this program where you get to be at the table of 50 monthly meetings, which is, know, not as you said to me earlier, I mean, Not scalable. If you went beyond your current headcount for many companies, they can't even contemplate that. And yet this is so baked into your culture and that employee experience.
[00:12:48] I think, it's worthwhile digging into what, could leader who's listening, who's in a bigger organization take from this experience? What, is the most important takeaway for them to consider, do you think?
[00:13:00] pete-needham-march-23_recording-1_2022-03-23--t06-47-49pm--guest432069--pete: Well, I mean, I think if I go back to the old style annual appraisals, I think many people felt that. And I certainly, I felt in the past that I was, I was there to listen as opposed to engage. I was being told, these are your targets. I was being told, this is how you've done. I was told, here are your areas for improvement.
[00:13:20] I was told we are your strengths. Nobody actually turned round and ever said. And is that what you think. And I think that's the golden part. How do you build trust with employees? How do you get away from us and them management and the troops this team or that team, this discipline, or that discipline.
[00:13:37] And it's through those honest conversations and you really do have to be honest, you know, where, where mistakes been made. You can celebrate them because the greatest learning comes from failure.
[00:13:50] pete-needham-march-23_recording-1_2022-03-23--t06-47-49pm--61157a395affa4006d0cfc64--lollyg: It's true.
[00:13:51] pete-needham-march-23_recording-1_2022-03-23--t06-47-49pm--guest432069--pete: And if you, if you. Give people that reassurance. I, one of the things I've actually said in an MDP on a couple of occasions, somebody said, Pete, before you say a word, I've made a horrible mistake.
[00:14:01] This is what happened. This is what I did. I've realized now it, you know, it wasn't the right thing to do. So my first question is, did anybody die? No. Is it the end of civilization? As we know. No it's the company likely to go under as a result of what you did yesterday or this afternoon? Whenever it was well, no.
[00:14:21] Okay. What have you learned as a result of that happening? Well, of course that did it, did it, did it, did it. If they can articulate to me in the line manager, this is what I learned. The failure. The mistake is the greatest blessing in the.
[00:14:36] pete-needham-march-23_recording-1_2022-03-23--t06-47-49pm--61157a395affa4006d0cfc64--lollyg: I hear you. and it's such a, it's such a relief, isn't it? When you, when you lean into that, when you really think about, okay, you know, we don't need to be scared of making mistakes of failing because that's actually where the greatest growth from.
[00:14:51] pete-needham-march-23_recording-1_2022-03-23--t06-47-49pm--guest432069--pete: Yeah. I say all the time, only people who do nothing, never make mistakes. I know I do.
[00:14:55] pete-needham-march-23_recording-1_2022-03-23--t06-47-49pm--61157a395affa4006d0cfc64--lollyg: Right. Yeah, I love it. I love it. No, it's such an important philosophy and it's not widely embraced, I mean, in corporate culture for, for decades and it, and it persists there is this thinking that people have to get it right, right off the top. And, and, you know, we need practice. We need to stumble.
[00:15:12] We need feedback. We need time and it's okay. And your organization, they get you to help facilitate that discovery and that reflection, which is key to learning.
[00:15:22] pete-needham-march-23_recording-1_2022-03-23--t06-47-49pm--guest432069--pete: Yeah, facilitation is a great word.
[00:15:24] pete-needham-march-23_recording-1_2022-03-23--t06-47-49pm--61157a395affa4006d0cfc64--lollyg: Yeah, absolutely. So the individual career plan piece, had told me that You got rid of the, the concept of career ladders you replaced them with something called desired experiences could you elaborate for
[00:15:39] pete-needham-march-23_recording-1_2022-03-23--t06-47-49pm--guest432069--pete: Yeah, absolutely. You know, the thing about an individual career path, it's exactly that we're all at different stages of life. We have different needs, different ones and they evolve over time. So, having career ladders is all well and good, and they have their place in different cultures, but in our culture, we want to personalize that past to the individual.
[00:15:59] And so. We're really, if you got hung up on job titles and said, you know, the career path for you is to be a tier one. And then a couple of years later, you'll be a tier two. And then a couple of years later you'll be a tier three or whatever the path may be. That's not really addressing the needs of each individual because everybody's different and it leaves.
[00:16:19] Blockages or, let's say traffic jams in the whole evolution of moving people up. What's an onwards who want to move on with nitwits. And so, as part of that, what we said was look, you know, there's a book that was written by Reed Hoffman. It used to be. If I'm correct the CEO of LinkedIn and it's called the Alliance, so let's work instead of me saying, you know, you'll be an employee for the next 10 years, or I want your undying, support for the next 10 years as an extension employee, let's talk about smaller chunks.
[00:16:49] So we let the employee determine the smaller chunks. And what we do is we say over the next, the employee inserts the time. I would like the following experiences. So instead of saying, I want to be a manager or I want to be a director, or I want to be this, or I want to be that I would like to learn more about Cisco routing and switching.
[00:17:09] I would like to learn more about time management. I would like to learn more about the softer skills. I would like to learn more about Veem. You could, there's so many things, so many experiences that you can give an employee who wants to move on wards and upwards. That's highly motivating. And, and then we don't worry about whether that means a promotion or not.
[00:17:32] Are we building out your experiences in such a way that you can say, you know what, this is not boring. I'm not just doing the same old thing day in, day out. And we're showing a willingness, you know, unless somebody turns around and says to me, well, I want to be a brain surgeon. Cause we're not in the industry.
[00:17:50] will try as much as we can to accommodate that wish. But the most important thing is Lisa, Individual employee must drive the individual career paths. And we often describe it like this. It's a route that we map out. are in the car as the driver, am in the car as a passenger. And so as the line manager and we will help navigate.
[00:18:11] But it is the individual who must drive the individual career path. I think that's highly appropriate. You know, if people don't want to take ownership of that you know, that's a different discussion, but many, many people do we also do. Lisa, is we give people. The opportunity to opt-in or opt-out no, for example, if you think about a high performance, low potential employee, somebody who might have reached a place in the organization where they are really happy, super productive, they're engaged, they're doing what they want to do, they really don't want, you know, a manager or to have people reporting to them.
[00:18:49] are the backbone
[00:18:50] pete-needham-march-23_recording-1_2022-03-23--t06-47-49pm--61157a395affa4006d0cfc64--lollyg: Yeah.
[00:18:50] pete-needham-march-23_recording-1_2022-03-23--t06-47-49pm--guest432069--pete: organization and they are golden. You, need people like that, employees like that in any organization. So if they turn around and say, you know, Pete, I'm really happy doing what I do. And so long as you know, I can maintain my level of enthusiasm and performance. And we talk about that every month then, know, is that okay?
[00:19:10] And the answer is yes, of course.
[00:19:12] pete-needham-march-23_recording-1_2022-03-23--t06-47-49pm--61157a395affa4006d0cfc64--lollyg: Right, Yeah. And it's, interesting because I was meeting with a former colleague the other day, wanted to pick my brain around succession planning. And cause I've done substantial amount of work in that area. And, you know, he was, he was saying, it's, it's fascinating because often the, the sort of study Eddie's those people that are the backbone that keep the lights on and so on.
[00:19:31] leaders often are banking on them moving up or pretend potentially even in some cases, being their successor and not contemplating really what's the potential there. And what's the aspiration for that person. Do they aspire for a change or not? Because if they don't, there's no point. Pushing them to focus on up-skilling, you know, preparing for the next level, for instance, and for you to, to put all your hopes there in that basket.
[00:19:57] pete-needham-march-23_recording-1_2022-03-23--t06-47-49pm--guest432069--pete: but they are equally as important when it comes to employee experience.
[00:20:01] pete-needham-march-23_recording-1_2022-03-23--t06-47-49pm--61157a395affa4006d0cfc64--lollyg: Yes. And so it's not about ignoring them or putting all of your energy on those high flyers or the stragglers, right? It's, it's, it's ensuring that those, folks, the backbone are getting the attention that they deserve. I completely agree. Yeah, very important. So maybe you could tell us a little bit about you know, you, you talked about empathy earlier.
[00:20:21] you touched on it and I think it would be great to dig into that because you did something this, a whole, what did you call it? Empathy, empathy, interviews, perhaps you could tell us exactly what that did for the organization and how it, it, it was embedded into your programs.
[00:20:37] pete-needham-march-23_recording-1_2022-03-23--t06-47-49pm--guest432069--pete: Yeah, for sure. As an organization, we decided to go down the path of using design thinking methodology with our employee experience team about 18 months. There are five stages to design thinking. The first stage is empathy, really getting to know your target audience and out of that, you will derive personas for your organization.
[00:20:58] In other words, characteristics that a number of employees could see themselves as a relate to. To put it very simply. The second stage of design thinking is defining the problems that the target audience would like solved. And then you ideate at stage three, which is a form of brainstorming you prototype and you test design thinking is used extensively.
[00:21:21] User experience, designing new software, new products and the customer experience and more and more companies are now seeing the value of it in terms of Marion design, thinking with the employee experience. So to answer your question out of when the employer, when the employee experience team were trained and ready to go, They actually conducted interviews across the organization and generated a vast wealth of information about the needs and wants of our employees in different locations at different stages of their lives.
[00:21:52] We created three personas called Julie, James and Elliot, and every single one of our staff can relate to. Personas because we tested it through post surveys and iteration, which is a key part of design thinking. And we've used that information to generate a new set of core values for the organization that were written from the bottom up, not the top down, we call it the next dimension, ultimate guide to professionalism.
[00:22:18] It contains. 10 characteristics that the employees told us they felt were important in terms of the organization being professional. And that was one of the key themes that came out of the empathy interviews. And out of that, we then started to focus in on one of those characteristics, accountability, breaking down the barriers between teams collaborating and ultimately it led us to.
[00:22:43] Monthly meeting, which we now call the tribal council in which people are rewarded for being nominated by their peers, not by anyone else, but by their peers for displaying those characteristics, the core values, the characteristics of professionalism. So it's been a journey that at the very start, and I think you could say this of any design thinking project, we had no idea where it was going to take.
[00:23:05] Cause Lisa, we
[00:23:06] pete-needham-march-23_recording-1_2022-03-23--t06-47-49pm--61157a395affa4006d0cfc64--lollyg: Yeah.
[00:23:07] pete-needham-march-23_recording-1_2022-03-23--t06-47-49pm--guest432069--pete: no idea. It turns out that we now have tribal councils. We have tribal council reward points where people who the core values as nominated by their fellow employees. It's a great way of working, but why do we call it a tribal council? Because a tribe is one body of people who share the same values.
[00:23:27] The same culture and, you know, live and work in the same place. I mean, that's the definition of a tribe. And so we've shamelessly borrowed from the survivor TV program. And when that's how we run our tribal councils, that's the ones that, you know, once a month, people would call them a town hall or a business update.
[00:23:43] We call it a tribal council.
[00:23:45] pete-needham-march-23_recording-1_2022-03-23--t06-47-49pm--61157a395affa4006d0cfc64--lollyg: Right. And, just so that people listening, aren't thinking you're voting people off the island. It's not about that at all. What's the ultimate outcome of your tribal council.
[00:23:53] pete-needham-march-23_recording-1_2022-03-23--t06-47-49pm--guest432069--pete: it's the reverse. it's a democratic process, but the person who receives the most nominations in a given month from their peers is the employee of the month. And then, you know, for some people they would say, oh, you know, employ them on. That's a bit old fashioned. I still believe in it because of the link between the voting, the nominations, the core values and what it's done.
[00:24:15] Lisa it's kept the core values. Top of mind every single month for every single employee. And if you get more than two nominations for employee of the month, as part of the MDP process, that's where we solicit the nominations. You get 25 tribal council reward points. Which are worth $25. So by the time you accumulate enough for these over a few months, you can cash those in for gift cards, worth 125 or $250, or you can take extra days vacation.
[00:24:49] we now have a reward system that relates directly to the core values and being nominated for manifesting those behaviors.
[00:24:57] pete-needham-march-23_recording-1_2022-03-23--t06-47-49pm--61157a395affa4006d0cfc64--lollyg: Excellent. So tell us a little bit, to connect this, so you're gathering nominations for, you know, the, the employee of the month piece that that's awarded in the tribal council, you're gathering the nominations through the monthly development plan meetings. what does that conversation sound like?
[00:25:12] Let us in, let us listen.
[00:25:14] pete-needham-march-23_recording-1_2022-03-23--t06-47-49pm--guest432069--pete: Yeah, absolutely.
[00:25:14] pete-needham-march-23_recording-1_2022-03-23--t06-47-49pm--61157a395affa4006d0cfc64--lollyg: do you gather that?
[00:25:16] pete-needham-march-23_recording-1_2022-03-23--t06-47-49pm--guest432069--pete: So it's great because at the beginning of every MDP, this is my first question and it goes something like this. X, is there anybody that you would like to nominate this month as employee of the month against one or more of the 10 characteristics of professionalism as written and circulated in the N D professional guide and ultimate guide?
[00:25:36] And then they can't just say yes. I'd like to nominate Lisa against dedication, accountability, and integrate. I have to know why. So tell me why you're nominating against those three characteristics. another aside of course, is that it enables us as an organization to measure which of the 10 characteristics are really jelling with the employees this month.
[00:25:59] And it changes from month to month. So it's really powerful information at our fingertips now. So last month, the most popular characteristic of professionalism was reliability. This one's, it looks like it's going to be expertise. And we can track that now as an organization. And then the key of course is then to feed back to the employee who got nominated.
[00:26:22] Hey, you picked up a nomination today for expertise for doing this. So there has to be a feedback loop. And in a sense, I'm kind of like the hub because I sit in on the MDPs and relay the information. And then the tribal council, I reveal who's the employee.
[00:26:39] pete-needham-march-23_recording-1_2022-03-23--t06-47-49pm--61157a395affa4006d0cfc64--lollyg: Right. Interesting. So, so with the, so you've just given us a little bit of window into how that happens and thank you for that. And you also shared what some of those 10 characteristics of professionalism are. So I heard accountability. Integrity, expertise as a few examples. So, you know, we are meaning making machines, the complex humans that we are.
[00:26:58] So how did you go about people on the same page around what those things mean? Are there definitions attached or how did you go about that?
[00:27:07] pete-needham-march-23_recording-1_2022-03-23--t06-47-49pm--guest432069--pete: Yes there are. And the way that we did it was a, and I'm just actually reaching out to my guide. Now this is in front of me. the feedback from the empathy interviews where the, when it became clear that professionalism was the overriding theme that the employee base was most keen that we look at and examine Our marketing manager, Brandy actually said, you know, I think we should do this a little bit differently.
[00:27:29] And here's what we should do because these 10 characteristics are all behavioral and all based around emotional intelligence, let's give the employees some examples of how to think this way, how to act this way. How to react this way what we shouldn't do. And we've got multiple examples against every one of those 10 characteristics.
[00:27:51] So the ultimate guide to professionalism, although some of the headwinds, you know, we could easily have taken off the internet just by doing some simple research. The actual meat to the bones was written by the employee experience team. And that's what I mean when I say it was done bottom up, not top down.
[00:28:07] And we validated it. So the way we validated it was we put the profession, the guide to professionalism in every single employees, employee profile in our HRS system, which they all have access to ask them to read it. And then I them vote on it. Do you recognize this as something that you can relate to?
[00:28:27] there were a number of pulse surveys in which we were constantly checking. Did we get the personas? Right? Did we get the ultimate guide definitions? Right? Are these the 10 characteristics that mean the most to you? Then we started to pick on. Which would be the most important characteristic for us to explore as an employee experience team.
[00:28:45] First back came the answer accountability, and this is amazing stuff, you know, I mean, I couldn't dream this up when you know, to think that to our tribe, our employees. Really felt that accountability was something really important to them. It's normally something that you might think managers and management teams would think about, but this was coming back to us from, from our employee base.
[00:29:08] And it was very, very clear when we carried out our poll surveys that this was something that they would.
[00:29:13] pete-needham-march-23_recording-1_2022-03-23--t06-47-49pm--61157a395affa4006d0cfc64--lollyg: Right. Yeah. So, such a beautiful example of when you, when you, when people feel heard right there is buy-in when they are involved the things that impact them. it's a much, much smoother sailing, right
[00:29:27] pete-needham-march-23_recording-1_2022-03-23--t06-47-49pm--guest432069--pete: Absolutely.
[00:29:27] pete-needham-march-23_recording-1_2022-03-23--t06-47-49pm--61157a395affa4006d0cfc64--lollyg: Yeah.
[00:29:28] pete-needham-march-23_recording-1_2022-03-23--t06-47-49pm--guest432069--pete: I mean right now, I'll give you another example of a pool survey. We, we rearranged our office furniture in our Windsor head office to accommodate the needs of COVID the pandemic and everything. So this week when the government of Ontario lifted one or two of the restrictions like masks and social distance in et cetera, what we could have done with just say, oh, we're going to rearrange the office again.
[00:29:49] And you can sit there and you can sit there or come up with some hybrid model. But what employee experience has told us is that the best thing to do to give the employees a couple of options and have them vote through a poll survey. So the Windsor head officer currently, literally, as we speak voting on the office layout, that they would like.
[00:30:10] Now that the COVID restrictions have been lifted, and that is the most powerful thing you can ever do rather than impose some hybrid model or, you know, we now have rotating desks and you have to book a desk or something like that. Let's ask the employees what really matters to them. then let's show them that we have.
[00:30:29] pete-needham-march-23_recording-1_2022-03-23--t06-47-49pm--61157a395affa4006d0cfc64--lollyg: Yeah. so critical. And, and, you know, I see a lot of organizations grappling with this right now because they're trying to figure out how to manage the return to office or the hybrid transition, whatever you want to call it. Right. How did you actually, how did you manage that piece? with the return to office, where people get to choose when they're in and when they're at home or how is that working for your organization?
[00:30:49] pete-needham-march-23_recording-1_2022-03-23--t06-47-49pm--guest432069--pete: We have one team in particular that we feel we wanted to be together in the office. It's our service desk. It's, it's the heart and soul of our organization. And so right through the pandemic, actually as an essential service provider, which we regard ourselves as we had that team in the office, I think.
[00:31:09] Going forward. What the employee experience has told us is there has to be some flexibility and a recognition the individual needs and wants are literally that individual personal choices. laugh sometimes and a smile to myself. When I hear organizations say, we're all going back into the office as soon as it's safe, or we're never going back into the office again, you know, from now on everybody's remote.
[00:31:32] Well, that doesn't accommodate. The needs and wants of every single employee. And I truly believe that people can still be productive if you give them the environment in which they feel most comfortable. And for some people that will be in the office, another people, it will be working remote or to be given the flexibility to maybe work remote a couple of days a week, but you can't really broad brush them.
[00:31:57] I mean, I think that's what the pandemics really taught is it's really about individual preferences and needs. And if we get away from that,
[00:32:05] I think we haven't learned the lessons of the last two years.
[00:32:07] pete-needham-march-23_recording-1_2022-03-23--t06-47-49pm--61157a395affa4006d0cfc64--lollyg: I agree. It's interesting, right? It's been a difficult phase and one where there was a lot of building the plane while we flew it, you know, through, throughout and, and, and yet, you know, and S and some pain We're coming out the other side and there's been some important even if it was difficult to get to that I think are going to help.
[00:32:25] In terms of how organizations are responding, how they're listening,
[00:32:28] pete-needham-march-23_recording-1_2022-03-23--t06-47-49pm--guest432069--pete: Yes.
[00:32:29] pete-needham-march-23_recording-1_2022-03-23--t06-47-49pm--61157a395affa4006d0cfc64--lollyg: It really tuning into what employees want. You know, something that you, you mentioned earlier before we started to you when we were talking about the concept of empathy and the empathy interviews and. It's such a key theme in the work I do as a, as a coach and, and working with talent leaders myself, you mentioned listening to understand, not to judge.
[00:32:45] And this is a core part. When, when I facilitate workshops for instance, around communication or having the difficult conversation, that is a key piece that comes into play three levels of listening based on Marianne Williamson's work. So. Tell me a little bit about how it plays out at next dimension, this, this, how do you, how do you help leaders and employees really listen to understand and not to judge?
[00:33:08] pete-needham-march-23_recording-1_2022-03-23--t06-47-49pm--guest432069--pete: Well, it's not easy, but I think one of the things that you have to recognize right off the bat is the em, empathy, this, this ability to listen to understand, but not to judge is at the heart of everything. I mean, if you talk about diversity, equity and inclusion, you can't possibly have inclusion without.
[00:33:29] And, it's really, really difficult as for individuals. I think it's something that you really have to focus in be very self-aware. The ego can be your worst enemy. And the ego is the start of thinking. So, as humans, I think it's almost wired into us. People will say something and we'll immediately go, well, I don't like.
[00:33:51] Or I don't agree with that, but that's the judgment coming in. So you can imagine how difficult it is to stop yourself from doing that. But what you can do in empathy interviews as a first step is to acknowledge, what's been said by probing questions, by nodding, by acknowledging, by showing interest,
[00:34:13] pete-needham-march-23_recording-1_2022-03-23--t06-47-49pm--61157a395affa4006d0cfc64--lollyg: Yes.
[00:34:13] pete-needham-march-23_recording-1_2022-03-23--t06-47-49pm--guest432069--pete: might be thinking in the back of your mind.
[00:34:15] I'm not sure I totally agree with this, but tell me more.
[00:34:17] pete-needham-march-23_recording-1_2022-03-23--t06-47-49pm--61157a395affa4006d0cfc64--lollyg: It's the it's choosing to be curious, right? It's it's moving from learner from judger mindset into learner mindset. Isn't it?
[00:34:24] pete-needham-march-23_recording-1_2022-03-23--t06-47-49pm--guest432069--pete: Yeah.
[00:34:25] pete-needham-march-23_recording-1_2022-03-23--t06-47-49pm--61157a395affa4006d0cfc64--lollyg: it's that? Oh, I don't quite understand where Pete's coming from, but you know, I really want to understand, you know, I want to, so that changes the kinds of questions, the inquiries that you make and moves the conversation forward versus getting stuck at an impasse because you're rolling your eyes internally.
[00:34:41] pete-needham-march-23_recording-1_2022-03-23--t06-47-49pm--guest432069--pete: We know what design thinking teaches us is to fall in love with the problem, not the solution set, the more information you can gather about whatever. You know, not working for the employees really, really important. that ego comes in at every stage of design thinking because when you're prototyping and testing, that it's easy to fall into is to try and sell the solution to the target audience.
[00:35:06] But you shouldn't do that. can present a solution, but you must be prepared for them to go. No, that's not what we want and be okay with that.
[00:35:15] pete-needham-march-23_recording-1_2022-03-23--t06-47-49pm--61157a395affa4006d0cfc64--lollyg: Right. Right. So it's offering it with no attachment. I also like the idea of offering options, right. So it's not like, and not being married to any of them. Like here's what I, based on what I've heard and here's where I'm thinking it's going. Yeah. I think that's something that, that a lot of HR talent leaders, because they're of service, they tend to be people that really want to be of service, want to help solve problems, you know, want to add value so badly sometimes can err, on the side of advice-giving versus really.
[00:35:42] Not because we're bad people, but, you know, versus really, truly listening to understand
[00:35:48] pete-needham-march-23_recording-1_2022-03-23--t06-47-49pm--guest432069--pete: Yes
[00:35:48] pete-needham-march-23_recording-1_2022-03-23--t06-47-49pm--61157a395affa4006d0cfc64--lollyg: dig and to go a little bit further to uncover before saying, you know, based on this, I'm thinking here, few ideas, you know, in the direction we could go solution wise, but taking your time. I love that fall in love with the problem, not the solution.
[00:36:01] That's really. Well, so we are, at the end of, of our time together. So I wanted to ask you one more question. Doesn't it go fast?
[00:36:08] It's wild. it does.
[00:36:09] It's like, whew. So one last question before we wrap Pete, which is, you were talking so eloquently earlier about how, learning so often is rooted in failure.
[00:36:18] So whether it's a failure story, not what would you say is your biggest learning over your career in, in our discipline?
[00:36:26] pete-needham-march-23_recording-1_2022-03-23--t06-47-49pm--guest432069--pete: It's okay to trust.
[00:36:28] pete-needham-march-23_recording-1_2022-03-23--t06-47-49pm--61157a395affa4006d0cfc64--lollyg: Oh, yes.
[00:36:30] pete-needham-march-23_recording-1_2022-03-23--t06-47-49pm--guest432069--pete: You know, I mean, you, you can have two perspectives. I can do this myself, cause I know I can do it or I can trust this person to do it and it's not naivety, but I think out of respect and out of consideration and a little bit of humility, it's okay to trust people. They might not do it exactly the same way as.
[00:36:51] Maybe I could have done it faster, but if they're doing their best and they're learning and developing and they're having fun, let's trust them.
[00:36:59] pete-needham-march-23_recording-1_2022-03-23--t06-47-49pm--61157a395affa4006d0cfc64--lollyg: Yeah. it's okay to trust people. Thank you very much. I think that's wise wise words for us today and thank you very much for coming on the show. It's been such a pleasure.
[00:37:09] pete-needham-march-23_recording-1_2022-03-23--t06-47-49pm--guest432069--pete: Oh, thank you for having me, Lisa. I really appreciate it.
