[00:00:00] HR can feel like a very black and white place sometimes, especially for the people. It serves people in talent in HR usually acknowledge that the work is more complex in its many shades of gray context and circumstances must be considered for each situation encountered outside of say certain strict legal or ethical or pension plan parameters.
[00:02:16] Listen in on this episode to explore what living in the gray is all about and what makes it a reasonable approach. My guest is Helen Ashton, who is VP of people and culture at grand and toy. Helen holds a master's in industrial relations in HR and previously oversaw HR at Campbell soup company and Colgate Palm.
[00:02:37] She started out in the Canadian military and owned Marshall art schools. At one point, we bonded over the fact that both she and my teen son are TA Kondo black belts, Helen thrives in HR because she truly values the impact that HR can have on people's lives, both professionally and personally. This was a great episode, such a pleasure to record with Helen.
[00:02:58] Enjoy. Hello, and welcome back to talent management truths. I'm your host, Lisa Mitchell. And today I'm joined by Helen Ashton. Helen is the vice president of people and culture at Grandon toy Canada. And it's a pleasure to have her welcome to the show, Helen.
[00:03:18] helen-ashton_recording-1_2022-06-17--t02-25-12pm--guest620148--helen-ashton: Thank you, Lisa. It's so great to be.
[00:03:20] helen-ashton_recording-1_2022-06-17--t02-25-12pm--61157a395affa4006d0cfc64--lollyg: So let's begin by sharing a little bit with the listeners a bit of your, your career journey, cuz it's quite intriguing.
[00:03:28] helen-ashton_recording-1_2022-06-17--t02-25-12pm--guest620148--helen-ashton: Well, I dunno about intriguing, not traditional. How about we go with that? So yeah, the HR is not the first career that I had. I've spent some time in the military, so I wanted to be a trauma doctor. Military seemed like a good way to, you know, start that career from that perspective. So spent seven years there, I didn't become a, a trauma doctor.
[00:03:48] Then I also ran my own martial arts studio a couple of times. And then at one point I wanted to be a professor. So I tried my hand in that and I went and I taught at a college. And then I fell in HR by accident. Like I think most of us do, looking for a summer job and found a payroll position.
[00:04:05] And then as, as I was sort of going through it, tried my hand in a couple of different HR things and fell in love with HR. And 20 years later, still here.
[00:04:14] helen-ashton_recording-1_2022-06-17--t02-25-12pm--61157a395affa4006d0cfc64--lollyg: Interesting. Okay. So, so hang on. We J we. Dissect this a little bit. So military, so you said trauma doctor. So you were doing medical.
[00:04:23] helen-ashton_recording-1_2022-06-17--t02-25-12pm--guest620148--helen-ashton: Yeah. So I've started out wanting to do some medical work. After the first deployment, I realized that I don't have the stomach for it. But I didn't, wasn't ready to give up the military. So I went back and transferred into the disaster recovery unit. Did that for a few years. And then you know, guys and I were talking and a lot of us were trying to hand our spend in intelligence.
[00:04:45] So we've applied for special forces. I was very fortunate to get on. So I spent a few years doing that a couple more deployments, and then I came back home and realized that, that this is it for the military career. I need to build my life in the civilian world.
[00:05:00] helen-ashton_recording-1_2022-06-17--t02-25-12pm--61157a395affa4006d0cfc64--lollyg: Fascinating fascinating. And what would you say, you know, has been the most important piece of your military experience and learning that you've brought with you into this HR world?
[00:05:09] helen-ashton_recording-1_2022-06-17--t02-25-12pm--guest620148--helen-ashton: To know military experience is exceptionally unique on so many different levels. But what I would say translated really well is a leadership. Skills. Right. So if you, depending on the path that you take in the military, you have thrown in the leadership positions very, very early on in your career, and it gives you an opportunity to learn the lessons that might take a few years in the civilian world very, very quickly.
[00:05:35] So one of my biggest lessons from the leadership perspective was You know, the whole concept of you don't have to have all the answers. You need to make sure that you're relying on your team and they have a voice and their voices heard because that's what will help you come up with the best possible answer in any given situation.
[00:05:54] helen-ashton_recording-1_2022-06-17--t02-25-12pm--61157a395affa4006d0cfc64--lollyg: I think that's so interesting because, you know, I can say from, from my own experience, certainly that was a mistake that I made, you know, at certain points in my career. Especially if, there was, you know, high pressure, high stakes around something as helpers, right? Like as service oriented humans, which is typically what you find in the talent HR space.
[00:06:13] It's easy to wanna. I better do it. All right. And to forget that, Hey, we do have resources. We don't have to hoard all of the work, be that hero manager kind of thing. So it's interesting to hear you say that. Yeah.
[00:06:26] helen-ashton_recording-1_2022-06-17--t02-25-12pm--guest620148--helen-ashton: but Lisa, I'll also build on that too. I think as you progress, not you personally, but as we all progress in our leadership roles, think there is that pressure that comes with it of, oh, well, you're in this role. Therefore you need to know the answer. You need to be able to give the direction. You need to be able to tell people what to do.
[00:06:44] And that's not the case. Most of the time, I think there is a time and place for that when there is a big crisis or you need to make a decision really quickly. Sure. But most of the time, that's not the case. And being okay with that and being comfortable with that, cuz it's an uncomfortable position for the leader to be standing in front of their team and saying, well, I do one now, can you help me come up with a solution?
[00:07:05] Very humbling experience. I must admit.
[00:07:07] helen-ashton_recording-1_2022-06-17--t02-25-12pm--61157a395affa4006d0cfc64--lollyg: Yeah. It's, very, very interesting. And, you know, I think it's something also that is, is really prevalent. Almost like an elevated thing in the talent HR space, right. Because you're, you're supposed to know. all leaders feel this to some degree, right? I've led operations and different, different areas, but this is like, you're supposed to be the resident consultant if you will, or expert.
[00:07:28] so the, the, you know, I work pretty much exclusively. Other than on the one on one side with, with talent leaders and, and I see this all the time, like they just, they want, and they deserve a forum. To talk things through, right. You know, a thought partner, right. Cuz it's so it's, so it's not that they don't know.
[00:07:44] It's it's facilitative though. When you, you have somebody you trust that you can, you can talk things through and figure it out. Right. And that isn't always on your team. So this is one thing to involve your team, but sometimes it goes beyond what you are able to share or comfortable sharing
[00:07:59] helen-ashton_recording-1_2022-06-17--t02-25-12pm--guest620148--helen-ashton: Hundred percent. I couldn't agree more. And I love how you're talking about it from a perspective of a thought partner. Because very often I think in HR, what we tend to try to do is because of your subject matter experts, we have to design the programs ourselves. Right. So with no matter what, whether it's an L and D program or I and D program, we tend to design them ourselves.
[00:08:21] But very often in the HR world and the talent world, There is no one right way to do things. There is no silver bullet. And this is where bringing your stakeholders along with you to balance some of the ideas off is very helpful, right? Because you could have three different ways of solving the problems.
[00:08:40] And it's not until you talk to your stakeholders where it's like, oh, that's the one that will resonate. That's the one that will bring the best benefit.
[00:08:48] helen-ashton_recording-1_2022-06-17--t02-25-12pm--61157a395affa4006d0cfc64--lollyg: Yes. So there's all shades of gray, no silver bullet it's. So it's so true. And that, that ambiguity it can feel a little bit of. Bit tough, right. It can trip us up and it can be easy. You know, we were talking in the green room about it's easy for, for us and for stakeholders to kind of just jump into action, make all kinds of assumptions about what needs are and, and kind of spend wheels needlessly.
[00:09:11] you mentioned stakeholders a moment ago and, and I know you've got strong opinions about how to build, buy in with them. Would you tell us a little bit about your philosophy?
[00:09:22] helen-ashton_recording-1_2022-06-17--t02-25-12pm--guest620148--helen-ashton: of course. Thank you for the question. I think for me, it's really around what you saying it's getting their buy-in and not just in the very beginning or in the very end it's throughout the entire process. And what inspired that is a few years ago, I read agile manifesto. Right. So it was re it wasn't, it was aimed at the software industry, had nothing to do with the talent world, but I think there's so many interesting parallels that you can draw into the talent world as well.
[00:09:50] So, I'm not gonna do the book, the justice, but basically what it talked about is. The problem in the software developing world where what you do is you would talk to your stakeholders or your customers then you'll, and you'll take all of that in and start designing the tool. And then you don't bring them along until the product is either finished or almost finished.
[00:10:11] and the issue with some of that becomes that the stakeholder expectations have changed. The external market or internal dynamic have changed. So now you provided that solution that doesn't solve the current problem
[00:10:24] helen-ashton_recording-1_2022-06-17--t02-25-12pm--61157a395affa4006d0cfc64--lollyg: no longer relevant.
[00:10:25] helen-ashton_recording-1_2022-06-17--t02-25-12pm--guest620148--helen-ashton: Yeah. Or it's a solution where, to your point, you've asked some questions, but then you also fill it in some gaps with the assumptions.
[00:10:33] And those assumptions, weren't the right assumptions. So again, you spend all this time and the energy and the money and the effort, but you've came up with a product that doesn't solve the real problem. So the suggestion, there was, well, don't wait until the very end and build your product in iterations or sprints, however you wanna call 'em.
[00:10:49] And I loved that as an idea, because again, I think in the talent world, we are being looked at as subject matter experts all the time. And that. Means that there is this pressure on us to know all the answers and to be able to recommend one right way of doing things. And what I see, even in the talent as a function, very often, you would have the centers of excellence working separately on something and not bringing their HR generalist or business partners along on the journey with you.
[00:11:17] So then they worked on this wonderful program. They came up with a program, they show it to the HR business partners and they're like, oh, hold on. This is not gonna work. And here is the 20 reasons as to why, and very. Very much legit reasons. So in my opinion, it's very important to have your stakeholders, well, rounded stakeholders, not just one function or just one person, and certainly not only the people who you like or who will tell you what you wanna hear.
[00:11:43] helen-ashton_recording-1_2022-06-17--t02-25-12pm--61157a395affa4006d0cfc64--lollyg: Oh, important point
[00:11:45] helen-ashton_recording-1_2022-06-17--t02-25-12pm--guest620148--helen-ashton: Yeah. You need to make sure that when you thinking about your stakeholders, you're thinking about all the functions or all the people that this is gonna impact. and you are also thinking about people who are gonna give you honest, critical feedback, even when you don't wanna hear it. Right. And, and then sometimes I've used the trick of putting somebody on the team and they are sole purposes to play the devil's advocate.
[00:12:09] Right. So whenever we're working with a solution, come up with. What, what are we not thinking about? What are some of the obstacles? And look, it's not that we are gonna solve for everything. It's never going to be perfect, but at least some of the issues that could come up are on the table. And then we able to think through, if that does come up, what's gonna happen.
[00:12:30] And sometimes not having an answer is okay too, but at least we've given it some thought. I think that's very important. And then being very clear on what is the business problem we're trying to solve. What is the people problem we trying to solve. And then you start coming up with you actions, but as you defining even the business and the people problem and the action, that's where you check in with your stakeholders and you bring them on board, say, Hey, here's the business problem?
[00:12:57] Did they get this rate? Yes or no. And they trade that a couple times and then goes, okay, well, in the people problem, that's what I'm hearing you say, is that correct? Check those assumptions so that you're not working with the wrong ones. Then again, once you map out the plan, it doesn't have to be perfect by high level.
[00:13:14] Hey, directionally, here's the three things I'm thinking about. How does that sound get their feedback and then start implementing and putting some of the things together as well. And keep going back to them and say, Hey, this is how it's progressing. Is there anything that changed in your world? That's important for me to know.
[00:13:30] Is there anything new news that you wanted me to be mindful of? And sort of continuing inter integrating from that perspective. And it does a couple of things. I think for me, it builds a stronger partnership with whoever is that, that you are working with, whether it's within the talent function or across it also makes sure that the product that you are developing is addressing the needs.
[00:13:51] And then you don't have to do this incredible internal sales job in the end because everybody knows what you've been working with and they already had their input. And all that is is just one final alignment before you roll it out versus trying to push water uphill.
[00:14:09] helen-ashton_recording-1_2022-06-17--t02-25-12pm--61157a395affa4006d0cfc64--lollyg: So that is huge. So I just wanna let that sink in for people. So when you are, I call. Embracing the iteration. I just did this talent strategy initiative workshop with a, a group of folks and, we talked about it's so important to keep looping back, keep checking in. So this is what I heard.
[00:14:27] And is this correct? Okay. So now then based on that, this is what I'm recommending, what do you think? Okay, so we're gonna go, we're gonna get started now. I'm gonna come back say here's what we know now. But you said, you know, when you do this. You're ensuring you're addressing the needs and then you don't need the sales job, the massive sales job, right.
[00:14:46] For that rollout. And I think that is a mic drop moment for people, right? Like it's thinking ahead, there's a reason why it's important to invest. I get it. That it's an investment to spend some time up front. It will save you down the road. A lot of pain effort and.
[00:15:03] helen-ashton_recording-1_2022-06-17--t02-25-12pm--guest620148--helen-ashton: Could not agree more.
[00:15:05] helen-ashton_recording-1_2022-06-17--t02-25-12pm--61157a395affa4006d0cfc64--lollyg: Yeah, it's, it's, it's really, really huge. There's a few other things that came up too, as I was hearing you, you talk about, you know, having this well rounded group of stakeholders and not just who you like and, and, and inviting the devil's advocate role to the table reminds me of remember Deb bono six thinking hats, right?
[00:15:20] Like the black hat, the person who's gonna kind of poke holes. And, and it's why is that important? Because it takes all kinds of thinking, cuz we don't all think the same way. We're capable of thinking multiple ways, but we're often playing in a, a set role. So how do we, plan for that? Right.
[00:15:36] Getting at that critical thinking piece.
[00:15:38] helen-ashton_recording-1_2022-06-17--t02-25-12pm--guest620148--helen-ashton: Yeah. so you talking about it from that perspective. So my husband is a police officer for a Toronto police. And the way we talk about it at home very often is that sharing your street corner, right. Cuz if he's investigating the. Accident that happened at the intersection, depending what, where the witnesses are from in the war corner, they stood, they have a different picture and a different perspective.
[00:16:01] helen-ashton_recording-1_2022-06-17--t02-25-12pm--61157a395affa4006d0cfc64--lollyg: Oh, beautiful metaphor. Yeah.
[00:16:04] helen-ashton_recording-1_2022-06-17--t02-25-12pm--guest620148--helen-ashton: and he's spent some time in the traffic division. So he's been telling you lots of these stories. But, but that's what I keep going back to and saying. Yeah, but that's true. Depending where you stood at the moment, you saw it slightly differently and it's not until you talk to everybody who was around and get the whole 360 view where you get a really clear picture of what actually happened.
[00:16:27] And then in the talent world, that happens all the time. You know, most of us had to do an investigation at one point or the other. Right. And you always start with. Two par polarizing stories of what has actually happened. And it's not until you start having the conversation where you realize 90% of the time, don't quote me on that.
[00:16:45] But 90% of the time, the truth of what actually happened is somewhere in between.
[00:16:49] helen-ashton_recording-1_2022-06-17--t02-25-12pm--61157a395affa4006d0cfc64--lollyg: So that's so funny cuz when I'm often when I'm training leadership development and communication and tough conversations. And so, and that's often, you know, an example that I, that I share, which is there's the way I see it. There's the way you see it. But the truth is really somewhere in the middle. Right.
[00:17:03] And, and I appreciate you sh you talk about, you know, in an investigation and you've got the, the polarization happening, the two extremes You know, it reminds me of that book and I'm trying, Roger, The opposable mind, Roger Martin. And it's this idea that, you know, strong thinkers can I'm not gonna do it justice, but can hold two completely polar opposite ideas in their mind and begin to see opportunities to say, well, what if both of these existed in some. What might be thought possible if we had this and that. So it's that, that yes. And approach versus either or no, but, or yeah.
[00:17:42] helen-ashton_recording-1_2022-06-17--t02-25-12pm--guest620148--helen-ashton: I absolutely love where you're going with this. And I think talent world is the world that lives in gray. There is very, very few things that are exceptionally black and white. You know, and the black and white usually is ethical or legal. Everything else is in gray. And living in gray it's.
[00:18:00] That's one of the possibilities, you know, you could have two very different things that are true at the same time. And then I also gonna layer the employee or associate perspective on this. Right? Because their perspective is also very interesting. If you are not trans. Barring your communication. And if you don't give enough details, they start filling those details on their own, and then their perception becomes their reality.
[00:18:24] So now you live in the universe where there's all these different realities that exist at the same time and the same message or the same program is being interpreted through all of those different realities. And it's a fascinatingly complex situation to manage. I don't need to tell you that.
[00:18:40] helen-ashton_recording-1_2022-06-17--t02-25-12pm--61157a395affa4006d0cfc64--lollyg: Yeah, it's, it is, it is pretty wild, but well, and, and, and when there's gaps in information or communication, we go negative. It's just how you write. Oh, why hasn't she said hello to me for three days. Right. And, and something's wrong and something I've done or she's an idiot, you know, like we, we make. And assumptions like crazy.
[00:19:00] So I'd love to extrapolate this idea of stakeholder buy-in building that buy-in building the trust, the relationships and. Onboarding. I recently did an episode with Melissa law. Who's been on a about three times now about she's just started a new role and I know you're fairly new to grant and toy.
[00:19:16] But we talked about onboarding yourself, right. And what were some of the, questions and so on. She was considering as she, as she got to know the organization, In your case. I'm curious about what you've been doing since you came in to build that Goodwill and understand what your different, who your different stakeholders are, what their needs are.
[00:19:35] What's your approach.
[00:19:36] helen-ashton_recording-1_2022-06-17--t02-25-12pm--guest620148--helen-ashton: Yeah, I think it's a great question. I think my situation is a little unique. I was exceptionally fortunate that the individual who had held my role before was retiring and she kindly stayed for an extra month. So we actually spend a month together which was so helpful. And that's doesn't happen.
[00:19:55] Most of the time, but she has done a phenomenal job, making sure that I set up I'm set up for success. So she actually walked me through who are the stakeholders, how to think about it. How's the company structured. So I was fortunate enough to do that, to, to get that from one person. But for me it was.
[00:20:13] Really a couple of things, being new to the leadership team. I wanted to make sure that I've spent the time with the team, getting to know them, understanding from their perspective, couple of different things where they are going as a function, where are we going as a team? And then what challenges do they see from the business perspective, but also from the people and culture perspective.
[00:20:33] And, you know, I get a lot of different opinions of course, but once you hear something three or four times, it's like, oh, there is, there's a trend. There there's something that's going on. And then I made sure that I spend a lot of time with my team. My team is absolutely wonderful, very experienced.
[00:20:51] But I think what we very often forget in the talent world is we take care of everybody else. We make sure that everybody else employment experience is a great one. Very often we forget about ourselves. So I think it was very important for me that I did spend the time with the team that I did talk to them about how I think about leadership and some of the broader concept, but also spend some one on one time with them as well.
[00:21:14] And made sure that their experience is there really good one. And I have to admit, you know, a big part of grind into my interview was my conversations with my peers on the team. And it was fascinating to me because. The only company in my 20 year careers where I've asked my peers in terms of what my priorities should be when I onboard virtually every single one of them had said, you need to take care of your team.
[00:21:40] And that does not happen very often in the roles like this. So that's when I knew I was like, this is the right job. This is the right job. This is the right company. This is the right environ. But I digress. And then the other thing that was important for me from the onboarding perspective was really getting to know their organization, you know, onboarding in post pandemic.
[00:22:00] I don't even know if we're allowed to call it that just yet, but in this post,
[00:22:04] helen-ashton_recording-1_2022-06-17--t02-25-12pm--61157a395affa4006d0cfc64--lollyg: Are we there yet? Yeah.
[00:22:06] helen-ashton_recording-1_2022-06-17--t02-25-12pm--guest620148--helen-ashton: Well, I'm there mentally wishful thinking. I understand put them there. You know, so I think for me, it was very important to strike that right balance because you don't have all the people in the office. Right? So, some of this I'm gonna bump into you by the cooler or coffee machine, and I'm gonna have a chance to say hello, and Chad is no longer there.
[00:22:26] So I think onboarding needs to become a lot. Purposeful and you can't count anymore on, oh, I'm gonna meet everybody within the first 30 days, cuz that's not gonna happen. You might not see some people for six months. Because they're not in the building, they're not coming in or it's a national. Sort of company where you have locations all over the country.
[00:22:44] And that's definitely on my list. You know, Grandon toy does have locations across the country and I'm really hoping to get out to at least a couple of them in the summer. And then we'll take it from there.
[00:22:54] helen-ashton_recording-1_2022-06-17--t02-25-12pm--61157a395affa4006d0cfc64--lollyg: there's all sorts of goodness in there. So, I, first of all, I really appreciate how you said in the talent world. We tend to. take care of others. right. We're so focused on that. And so this, this advice from your peers to take care of your team is, is really welcome and refreshing.
[00:23:09] And, and I, you know, it's, it's kind of like put your oxygen mask on first and it's easy to know that old adage and it's a whole lot other thing to pay attention to it and actually live into it. On the onboarding piece, when you're, you're talking about being more, more purposeful, What sort of went through my head is, so here you've come in and you're kind of, it sounds like it's hybrid approach where you are, so you might see some people in person, some people might be online.
[00:23:33] one of my coaching clients, I was speaking with her. So she actually started in her organization right at the beginning of COVID right. Of lockdown. So had never until recently, and they're doing sort of a hybrid go in a couple days a week or something like.
[00:23:45] She had never met her boss in person or all of these other people that she works with.
[00:23:51] Right. And she's, you know, typical talent role in the sticky middle of the organization. So, so everybody sort of wants a piece of her, wants more from her. and she's finding this strange sort of a strange experience where now that she's meeting people, including her boss, she's people are kind of sliding back into this, get to know each other.
[00:24:09] There's a bit of awkwardness. Right. We're trying to reestablish, how are we gonna work together? Fascinating. Have you noticed anything like.
[00:24:17] helen-ashton_recording-1_2022-06-17--t02-25-12pm--guest620148--helen-ashton: Yeah. So I'll, I'll share a little bit you know, and that's gonna sound very self-deprecating. So I was one of those HR leaders until the pandemic hit, who said HR needs to be in the building, whatever that means. Right. And there was one of the roles that I had where the responsibility was national and I was on the.
[00:24:34] You know, out of the house, traveling three weeks out of the month, because I think it was for me at that time was very important to be where people are. So they know who you are. They know you on the personal level and they feel comfortable having some of those conversations, cuz let's face it. When associates and individual contributors come to HR, it's not for the fun things.
[00:24:54] They don't come to us to say, thank you. Well, they do, but rarely, most of the time it's something happened and they need somebody to talk through this or somebody to help them. And you can't do that. You can't open up at that meaningful level to somebody that you've never met, or you could, but it's rather difficult.
[00:25:11] So I was that HR leader. So long winded way of saying I was that HR leader. And then pandemic hit. And just like the friend that you are referring to, I actually started with Campbell's. About couple of weeks after the pandemic. So it was an interesting experience because here I was put in the situation where I had no choice, but to figure out how to onboard in the virtual world.
[00:25:33] And Campbell's, as an organization, did a phenomenal job during pandemic taking care of their people you know, supporting them in any way that they could, which means that we, by the time I left, we still haven't gone back to the. Right. So I had to deliver performance reviews and coaching conversations to the people that I've actually never met in person.
[00:25:56] You know, and all of a sudden I had to build this relationships in the virtual world, which was a very, very different dynamic. And then if you do meet them in person, and we did do a couple of outings where we just got to go each other. It, and it was exactly what you described. And it's like all of sudden, oh, this is what you look like in real life.
[00:26:14] And this is how tall you are. And Hey, can we talk about this? And it, it was very interesting, but I also have to say pandemic for me. Made our life a lot more real and holistic, right. Because I know my son popped in. Oh, I, I don't know if I told you this story. I went downstairs to get water and I already logged into the call.
[00:26:33] I come back upstairs and I hear him. Oh, can you tell me what 60 plus 60 is? What about this? What about this? So he actually had somebody who joined the call while I was downstairs. Getting water. Doing his math homework for him. Right. And to this day, if he's home and are working from home and he hears me talk, he'll pop in, he'll say hello.
[00:26:52] He'll call go back out. I mean, but we get to meet our spouses and our kids and our pets, and then we see how our houses are decorated. Like, oh, where did you get this picture from? Right. So it's just a very different and intimate way of having conversations. And I think if we. Learned anything from pandemic it's that, that we are an not just, you know, this is my role that there's this whole other life outside of us.
[00:27:20] And I think it was fascinating. And I just hope that we, as a talent team, figure out how to continue on this journey and don't lose sight of this lesson.
[00:27:28] helen-ashton_recording-1_2022-06-17--t02-25-12pm--61157a395affa4006d0cfc64--lollyg: Yes. I agree wholeheartedly. It's it's, you know, it's been so tough for so many and, and yet there, you know, if there is that silver lining, I think it is what you said that, you know, we see people as, as. More than just the work that they do, right. Or the role that they play. They are many roles, many things right.
[00:27:50] With, with different interests and different, tastes and so on. Fascinating. And, and I do think we're in for a couple of years, you know, coming out of two plus years in law, in and out of lockdowns. And so on like that, I think we're at least two years before everybody sort of feels like.
[00:28:09] Discover what the new normal is. What do you think? Like, I think I'm just saying, I think it'll take some time.
[00:28:14] helen-ashton_recording-1_2022-06-17--t02-25-12pm--guest620148--helen-ashton: Yeah. You know what? I actually dunno. I'm very curious about how this whole thing will pan out because I think. The entire pandemic and vaccination has been such a polarizing issue, right? People tend to have opinions on sort of both ends of the spectrum. And there's very few people who are sort somewhere in the middle.
[00:28:33] And I am very curious to see how that's gonna all play out. I think what I'm starting to see is for those of us who are back in the office, how fast it was for us to fall back into pre pandemic habits. But I do think that there is a lot of lessons that we learned during pandemic that we really need to continue.
[00:28:53] Being very purposeful, keeping that on top of our mind to make sure we don't slip back. Cuz there are some really great lessons from the perspective, are we all ever gonna go back to pre pandemic normal? I don't know that we will, because I think while pandemic was so difficult for so many reasons, for so many people, there were also some of the silver linings that came out of it.
[00:29:16] And I think because we were in pandemic for a few years, We all will have really hard time giving those silver linings up.
[00:29:24] helen-ashton_recording-1_2022-06-17--t02-25-12pm--61157a395affa4006d0cfc64--lollyg: Well, and that's exactly what I'm getting at, you know, what's the new normal, I think we all have to redefine that, rediscover it for ourselves, you know, both communally, you know, in the communities where we live and work, but also for ourselves individually, like, it's it, I just think about personally, I'm very extroverted.
[00:29:39] If you haven't noticed, and I really get a lot of energy from other people and enjoy being around them. And at the same time I've gotten more comfortable. And yeah, I guess it's comfortable with being at home. More and on my own, like, it feels like a much bigger deal to pack up all my gear and go facilitate in person for a day than it ever used to.
[00:30:01] Cause I've just recently gotten back into the classroom. I'm like, oh my goodness. You know, there's, there's, I, I enjoy operating from home more often. And so it, it sort of speaks to, how do I wanna structure my days? And, and, and, and we see with the great resignation or more in the us, but in Canada, the great migration as people sort of figure out.
[00:30:21] I have new information. I've discovered about myself and about how I like to operate and is my work lining up with that. And if not, some people are just leaving without something to go to. It's it's
[00:30:33] wild.
[00:30:34] helen-ashton_recording-1_2022-06-17--t02-25-12pm--guest620148--helen-ashton: I agree with you. And it's interesting, you said you're an extrovert in how you draw the energy. I'm actually the polar opposite. I'm extreme introvert as an extreme, if I can sit through the dinner party, say in two words, that's my happy place, but it was interesting for me that you know, while pandemic gave me a little bit of that, okay, well, I have my space and I can choose to figure out how I engage and where.
[00:30:57] I missed the people interaction, even being an extreme introvert. When I went back to the office and you hear the energy and you hear the laughter and you were part of the hallway conversations, it was a huge aha moment where it's like, yeah, I still miss that. Even though I in the typical day would think, oh no, no, no, I actually do that that's not my happy place.
[00:31:18] That's not where I am at my best. So I think I agree with you. We all, regardless of where we are, Spectrum. We all have learned different things. And sometimes we do as society need a little bit of that push as, as dark as it might sound to reevaluate, what's important. What are we willing to give up and what we are not willing to give up anymore and reimagine what's possible?
[00:31:42] Cuz I think if it wasn't for pandemic, not many of us would be able to go back and say, oh, that's possible. And I can ask for it and I can expect this and I can make this work.
[00:31:51] helen-ashton_recording-1_2022-06-17--t02-25-12pm--61157a395affa4006d0cfc64--lollyg: Yeah. It's, it's like a, I like to think of it as a great rebalancing or a great reframing for all of us, because you know, my son is, is 16. He's introverted like yourself. And initially he was middle of grade eight when things shut down and he, he there'd been an incident at school and he was only too happy.
[00:32:09] To work for, to work from home for school. He's a gamer too, so he loves his computer and he was just like, yeah, this is the best thing. And then went through all of grade nine and did well and made it through. And then coming into grade 10, coming back in, he was re he was a little reticent at first, and now he's just like, I could never go back to online school.
[00:32:27] Like this is from a kid who embrace it fully. And now it's kind of like, it's caused us to, to look at things that. Were we viewed as difficult or, or distasteful as now. There's some value in it within reason it's CR it's really fascinating.
[00:32:46] helen-ashton_recording-1_2022-06-17--t02-25-12pm--guest620148--helen-ashton: Yeah, no, I could not agree more.
[00:32:49] helen-ashton_recording-1_2022-06-17--t02-25-12pm--61157a395affa4006d0cfc64--lollyg: So tell me, you know, we're, we're coming to the end of our, our time here. So, you know, you've got your, your new role and I know you're trying to take in the landscape at Grandon toy. You know, what is based on your, your time there so far, what's the biggest lesson learned in your very interesting varied career that you feel is going to be most important for you as you move forward?
[00:33:14] helen-ashton_recording-1_2022-06-17--t02-25-12pm--guest620148--helen-ashton: That's a great question. I think there's two. I think one is making sure. That we always check our assumptions. And I think we talked a little bit about that. And what has been very apparent to me through my first couple of months at grand and Toi is we could use the same terminology, but in a different company means different things.
[00:33:35] And then for different people. It means a different thing. And you know, I'll give you an example at one of the leadership team meetings we were talking about moving the culture to more towards learning culture. And then, you know, when I asked the question, I got three different responses, right? Like, so even on the leadership team, we define things slightly different.
[00:33:55] So I think it's an important of, you know, don't assume that you understand what the terminology means. Make sure you pause and you ask some of the really good questions. And then the second one is the flexibility. And living in the gray. I think if pandemic taught us anything, is that you. We'll have to figure out how to make decisions and how to make plans and how to move forward without having all the information or without information being reliable or predictable.
[00:34:24] And while it might seem overwhelming at first, I actually am starting to find some excitement in it because it gives the opportunity to envision what's possible. And look at that. Hey, let there's no assumptions. There is no limitations. What could we do? What the absolute best would look like and then aim for it.
[00:34:45] Because again, if we learned anything from pandemic, is that anything is possible.
[00:34:49] helen-ashton_recording-1_2022-06-17--t02-25-12pm--61157a395affa4006d0cfc64--lollyg: Well said, I, I agree a hundred percent. I really appreciate that, that sentiment, right? It's it's given us the gift of kind of possibility almost right. If, if we ha if we need to live in. Ambiguity. That's the reality. Okay. And it sky's the limit, right?
[00:35:03] Well, thank you so much. What a, what an illuminating conversation and just a pleasure to spend time with you.
[00:35:09] I I genuinely enjoyed it. Thank you for coming on the show, Helen.
[00:35:12] helen-ashton_recording-1_2022-06-17--t02-25-12pm--guest620148--helen-ashton: Well, the feeling is mutual. The time just flew by and I really appreciated their opportunity. So thank you, Lisa.
