[00:00:00] policies have a tone of voice and getting that tone right. Is key in influencing people to actually follow them. Unfortunately, the tone of written policies in many organizations has not kept up with the shift in terms of how leaders, you know, how we actually speak with employees in modern times, most of us were brought up to think that rules have to be really bossy in order to.
[00:02:05] Well, in this episode, we explore some fascinating tips for good policy writing. We also look at the connection between policy writing and talent in HR. My guest is Lewis. Eisen Lewis is the author of the international bestseller. How to write rules that people want to follow a guide to drafting, respectful policies and directive.
[00:02:26] Now his approach to drafting policy has been adopted by groups at organizations across the us, Canada and Europe, over his lengthy career. He's been a practicing lawyer, a technology consultant, and a policy writer in the federal government. He's been providing professional training seminars and workshops for 40 years.
[00:02:44] He's currently a member of the faculty of professional education group based out of Minnesota. It was so fun getting to know Lewis in this conversation, especially given that his brother Paul, a good friend of mine joined me on episode 37, 2 brilliant eyes and brothers. I am so lucky. Enjoy and thanks for listening. Hello, and welcome back to talent management truths. I'm your host, Lisa Mitchell. And today my guess is Lewis. Eon Lewis is a policy writing expert, and I'm delighted to have him join us on the show today. Welcome Lewis.
[00:03:21] lewis-eisen_recording-1_2022-06-28--t05-57-01pm--guest758906--lewis-eisen: Oh, thanks, Lisa. So glad to be here.
[00:03:23] lewis-eisen_recording-1_2022-06-28--t05-57-01pm--61157a395affa4006d0cfc64--lollyg: So perhaps you could begin by sharing with our audience a little bit about your journey to policy writing expert, because you're, you're a bit of a, a departure from my typical guest.
[00:03:35] lewis-eisen_recording-1_2022-06-28--t05-57-01pm--guest758906--lewis-eisen: Yeah, I guess so I'm, I'm a reformed lawyer. So I practiced for a while and then I saw the light and became a business consultant for a long time and then ended up working in government at public service where I, I served a 17 year sentence at hard labor and eventually got paroled. I got into policies when I was at the government is when I started really working and we did some policy work as a lawyer, but when I got into the government really started looking at corporate policies and corporate support policies.
[00:04:02] And I had a group of people when I first arrived. I was in charge of a nationwide records system. And my managers came up to me and said, we have a terrible problem. Nobody's following our policies. Everybody's ignoring us. I, no, no. We're wasting our. So I took a look at the policies and they were full of a lot of, sort of very harsh terms, like never and no exceptions and is not tolerated and a lot of bold and attacks and underlying and
[00:04:26] sentences in all
[00:04:27] lewis-eisen_recording-1_2022-06-28--t05-57-01pm--61157a395affa4006d0cfc64--lollyg: pointing.
[00:04:28] lewis-eisen_recording-1_2022-06-28--t05-57-01pm--guest758906--lewis-eisen: That's it? Yeah.
[00:04:29] And I realized policies have a tone of voice. They're part of a conversation and people who are really nice, friendly, helpful people who would never. To their colleagues in this tone of voice were writing policies in a tone of voice because they thought that's the way it has to.
[00:04:50] lewis-eisen_recording-1_2022-06-28--t05-57-01pm--61157a395affa4006d0cfc64--lollyg: Interesting because you know, this policies have a tone of voice piece. I think that really made me stop for a moment. I wrote that down. Because, you know, what I think about is, is I led a policies department briefly going way, way back over a couple decades ago. and then it during, you know, my time in HR and so on, I remember a lot of the times policies would be written in response to a fairly.
[00:05:13] Out there kind of situation that had occurred, right? no streaking allowed in the call center. No, I'm
[00:05:18] not. making that up. That's overdone, but it was kind of like unlikely to recur. And yet a senior leader would be like, we need a policy on this, put something in black and white please and communicate it.
[00:05:28] And it felt kind of silly, but I think that sometimes in the policy writing, there was this frustration being expressed that, you know, people would ever do something that didn't abide by, You know, the, the principle of the policy itself.
[00:05:42] lewis-eisen_recording-1_2022-06-28--t05-57-01pm--guest758906--lewis-eisen: Absolutely. And I'll tell you where that comes from though, because it's not necessarily that they're born of that. We're brought up that way from our parents and teachers to, to learn, to brought up, to think that rules have to be bossy. I'm telling you what to do. So it's gotta be bossy and, you know, stop fidgeting.
[00:05:58] Don't don't write while I'm talking to you, this is the tone of voice that we expect people to To say. So we grow into that. And then we inherit these policies that were written 40 years ago, 50 years ago at a time when bosses used to talk to their employees this way. I mean, I, I know I, I look 25 years old, online, but I'm actually a baby boomer.
[00:06:17] And when I was growing up and, or started working, if a boss was rude to you or gave you, you didn't argue back
[00:06:25] today, nobody talks that way to their employees today. We are respectful when we talk, but the writing hasn't caught up yet. That's the difference. The writing is still behind and people are thinking that somehow it needs to sound tough in writing or it won't be respected.
[00:06:41] lewis-eisen_recording-1_2022-06-28--t05-57-01pm--61157a395affa4006d0cfc64--lollyg: yeah, it's really kind of interesting. So what do you think is, is needed for that change to finally happen?
[00:06:48] lewis-eisen_recording-1_2022-06-28--t05-57-01pm--guest758906--lewis-eisen: So first thing is. A bit of a reality check. Okay. I've looked at the penal codes of all 50 states in the us and the Canadian criminal code. And 80% of them use very respectful language. They don't, nothing says murder is not tolerated. Murder is forbidden. You must never murder. Anybody never says that.
[00:07:10] It says murder is punishable by five years in prison. Sure. You're an adult. You make your own decision. 80% of the criminal code. Are in that tone of voice. So I, I think the first thing is to realize that we have a situation where the strictest laws for the most heinous crimes in the country are worded more nicely than most of the policies come out of our organizations.
[00:07:33] You know, I mean, you'd think in fact that it was far not as bad, not as serious to kill your boss as to not replace the coffee in the coffee pot on the machine, cuz you should see the way that sign is worded. So first, just a bit of a reality check that we don't need that kind of, of language. The second thing that's required is an understanding that the purpose of the policy is to help people do things right.
[00:07:59] Not to punish them or, or threaten them about doing things wrong. That's that switch needs to take
[00:08:04] lewis-eisen_recording-1_2022-06-28--t05-57-01pm--61157a395affa4006d0cfc64--lollyg: Or control them really?
[00:08:06] lewis-eisen_recording-1_2022-06-28--t05-57-01pm--guest758906--lewis-eisen: or control. That's right. policy is a statement of your culture. Okay. With your policy, you tell the world how you handle things. Our policy is office hours are nine to five that's policy. It's quite strict.
[00:08:18] Office hours are nine to five. But it's basically about the way you do things.
[00:08:21] lewis-eisen_recording-1_2022-06-28--t05-57-01pm--61157a395affa4006d0cfc64--lollyg: So what's the danger. When we're, we're framing it in a way that's, that's
[00:08:27] controlling or confrontational.
[00:08:30] lewis-eisen_recording-1_2022-06-28--t05-57-01pm--guest758906--lewis-eisen: Most of people who are frustrated with this having to write policies and find that they're not getting the buy-in that they want. So we there's something called psychological reactance and that simply is adults. We react quickly to instructions. as an adult, again, you, you think for a second.
[00:08:49] Oh, okay. I understand this person isn't being mean they're not being rude, but it is a reaction and you want to avoid that. So in fact, you should be able to have a full policy suite that people will look at and say, wow, these are great policies. God, I can't, I believe every one of these policies is perfect.
[00:09:07] Even if it's not in their area, they should be able to look and say what a wonderful policy. Absolutely. I think every organization should have this policy.
[00:09:15] lewis-eisen_recording-1_2022-06-28--t05-57-01pm--61157a395affa4006d0cfc64--lollyg: Right versus, oh my God, that irritates me, makes me wanna dig my heels in and
[00:09:19] conjure being just for fun. Well, it's, it's, you know, your book is called how to. Rules that others want to follow, which I, I kind of smiled when I saw that. Cause I thought, oh, I love it. When I'm doing leadership development, facilitation, for instance, I'm often talking about how can you, as a leader, create willing followers versus, you know, trying to use the carrot or the stick kind of approach.
[00:09:43] And, and it sort of, you know, sounds like that's what you're talking about here. When it comes to writing rules and respo and policy.
[00:09:48] lewis-eisen_recording-1_2022-06-28--t05-57-01pm--guest758906--lewis-eisen: That's exactly it. Everybody should be on side with your policies. And there's no reason if they're written properly, that everybody won't look at them and say, yep, you're right. This is the policy we should have. This is great.
[00:09:59] lewis-eisen_recording-1_2022-06-28--t05-57-01pm--61157a395affa4006d0cfc64--lollyg: Right. Okay. so let's dig into this a little bit further because you know, in the, in the green room we were talking about the importance of avoid. because I said, so, you know, adults do not, well, nobody, even your own kids, don't like to be told what to do. Right. And, and so we don't wanna create an us versus them scenario. So what would, what would you say is the biggest tip for policy readers? If you aren't able to come in and train them? But what would be the biggest tip for them to keep top of mind as they approach, you know, the blank page, starting to write a new policy?
[00:10:33] lewis-eisen_recording-1_2022-06-28--t05-57-01pm--guest758906--lewis-eisen: I would flip the traditional rule, which is thing you're not supposed to do followed by punishment. I'm gonna give you, I'd flip that around and write a rule about how you handle situations that you don't desire. Okay. So theaters learned this a long time ago. when theaters and orchestras, they got tired of people coming late and interrupting, but they don't write on the ticket.
[00:10:57] You must not be late. You loser don't ever come late. That's not what they write. What they say is we see late comers of the first opportunity. In other words, that's the situation they want to avoid, and they just tell you how they handle it. And it's not about being bad and getting punishment.
[00:11:12] lewis-eisen_recording-1_2022-06-28--t05-57-01pm--61157a395affa4006d0cfc64--lollyg: No, that's a terrific example. I love, love, love it, right. Because cuz I I'm a theater goer. I love
[00:11:17] going to concerts and, and shows and so on. And, and it's true. There's nothing controversial about that or that makes me feel defensive or silly or childlike. It's it's just straightforward. It's very respectful.
[00:11:30] lewis-eisen_recording-1_2022-06-28--t05-57-01pm--guest758906--lewis-eisen: If I can take that one step further, we don't want people showing up to work intoxicated. Okay. So we could say you must not show up to work. I.
[00:11:40] lewis-eisen_recording-1_2022-06-28--t05-57-01pm--61157a395affa4006d0cfc64--lollyg: unless you're interested in a social experiment.
[00:11:42] lewis-eisen_recording-1_2022-06-28--t05-57-01pm--guest758906--lewis-eisen: Fair enough, but a better way to do it is to talk about how you handle that situation. So it might be our policy is that when people show up for work intoxicated, we send them home. That's our policy. Here's how we handle this situation. If someone shows up for work intoxicated several times in a row, here's what we do.
[00:12:03] lewis-eisen_recording-1_2022-06-28--t05-57-01pm--61157a395affa4006d0cfc64--lollyg: Right.
[00:12:05] lewis-eisen_recording-1_2022-06-28--t05-57-01pm--guest758906--lewis-eisen: That's the same as the murder example, be guilty of murder. You go for jail for five years. It never says don't do that. It just tells you here's what we're gonna do. If we find you guilty of murder, we're gonna throw you in jail. You're an adult company yourself accordingly.
[00:12:17] lewis-eisen_recording-1_2022-06-28--t05-57-01pm--61157a395affa4006d0cfc64--lollyg: Yeah. Here's what you need to know before you
[00:12:20] you raise that, that a okay, well, so, you know, as you know, our audience here tend to be people in the HR space, organizational development, learning, and development, so that overall
[00:12:31] talent management umbrella. So what would you offer is, is. You know, something for these folks to consider when it comes to writing policies that are, that are more in their space versus it, or finance.
[00:12:45] lewis-eisen_recording-1_2022-06-28--t05-57-01pm--guest758906--lewis-eisen: It's a very good question. Because every corporate service has its own baggage in a sense to that. They, they carry with it. One of the baggages, I would say one part of the baggage, the reputation that HR has among other groups, it tries very hard not to play the policemen, not to play the heavy. And it has this sort of there's this feeling that if all I'm doing is reading their rules, they're really all about.
[00:13:10] The reason that's a problem is because now that I've worked with HR more and understand them, they're about safety and security and wellbeing, but it's not easy for me not coming from that field and looking at the policies to make the connection between the rules that they're putting forward and their goals of safety, security, and wellbeing.
[00:13:32] The way the rules are worded. When I read. What sounds like is important is control, discipline covering our back as an organization that this is what we consider important and your wellbeing, safety and security is well. Yeah. Okay. That's sort of incidental. That's gotta switch around.
[00:13:51] So it's gotta be clear, obvious to other, other people in the organization, the connect. Between that organizational goal for their benefit and the policy that you've put forward when someone says why should I have to follow that? What they're really asking is I have an agenda that my boss gave me and I have values that I have to follow.
[00:14:17] And you're telling me that your values are more important and they're outweighing mine. What's the principle and it might be a principle such as we do not compromise on safety. That's our, that's our value. We do not compromise on people's security. That's why safety is more important than speed. Safety is more important than profit safety is more important.
[00:14:40] So that's why you're weighing values against each other.
[00:14:44] lewis-eisen_recording-1_2022-06-28--t05-57-01pm--61157a395affa4006d0cfc64--lollyg: So, so it's important to have that value be, be front and center in the way a policy is worded.
[00:14:51] lewis-eisen_recording-1_2022-06-28--t05-57-01pm--guest758906--lewis-eisen: Absolutely because just as it's very hard for HR people, for instance, to understand what values the information management group is complaining about. I was an information manager for a long time. I know we walked around talking about preservation and compliance and all kinds of things that had no meaning to HR.
[00:15:09] Where, when I teach the, information management people, I tell them, no, you need to be talking about integrity and accountability. That's what you wanna be talking about. You want people to comply because that's what corporate integrity is. I did the work and I did it by the book. I didn't cheat.
[00:15:26] You're helping the organization preserve its integrity. That's the reason for this policy not compliance, Compliance is simply a, a method to maintain your integrity. So it's the same on the HR side, we often tout things like standardization and fairness, fairness is the reason I'm doing it.
[00:15:47] Okay. As opposed to the ultimate value that the, that stands behind the whole structure, which could be safety, security, wellbeing. Respect for others
[00:16:00] could be any of those. That's the value.
[00:16:03] lewis-eisen_recording-1_2022-06-28--t05-57-01pm--61157a395affa4006d0cfc64--lollyg: Yeah, that's really powerful. So let's dig into an example. Can, can you think of like I'm thinking of all sorts of policies that used to be, you know, on the internet in my last role about applying for jobs, you know, as an internal candidate, for instance, what's a common thing you see, and how would you rephrase.
[00:16:20] lewis-eisen_recording-1_2022-06-28--t05-57-01pm--guest758906--lewis-eisen: there's two issues going there. I have to tell you and I'm gonna start with the most basic one, and that is people tend to reach for the term. You must, whenever they write rules, cuz they figure that's the way rules should start with. So a very in a job application for example, or job posting, you might say you must be an analyst to apply for the director.
[00:16:39] Well, I, I think what you mean is that the director position is open only to analysts. That's, that's what you mean. It's not, you must be any there's nothing I don't must about it. And government is, is really bad about that you must be 65 years or older to get this social, social benefit, as opposed to this social benefit is open to people's 65 years in old, or, and what a difference in.
[00:17:02] The you must is a bouncer standing at the door going not you, not you, not you. Whereas when you word it the other way, this position is open to analysts and whatnot. Hey, do you qualify? Come on in, do you qualify? Come on. It's a whole different attitude.
[00:17:18] lewis-eisen_recording-1_2022-06-28--t05-57-01pm--61157a395affa4006d0cfc64--lollyg: And it's inclusive. You know, like I, I, I work with a lot of people, you know, a lot of people in our space right now DEI is more important than ever. So diversity, equity, inclusion belonging, and, you know, organizations are putting their money where their mouth is, and really investing in these areas, getting experts in to help them.
[00:17:37] And you know, when you talk about like you, these, these examples roll off your tongue so beautifully, right? They're inclusive. They're they're, they're not exclusive like putting, you know, people at opposite ends. You me over here.
[00:17:50] lewis-eisen_recording-1_2022-06-28--t05-57-01pm--guest758906--lewis-eisen: That's absolutely right. That's something I see very common are rules starting with employees must when it actually applies to everybody, doesn't just apply to employees. Rules, no reason a rule can start with, we. We don't park behind the building and the fire escape. We all arrive on meetings on time.
[00:18:09] We, we complete our meetings on time. We vacate the meeting room when someone else has booked it. We do, I have had a couple of clients say to me, my management won't let us use we because they don't think it's formal. There's the problem right there. we just identified the problem that somehow the notion of we from management's point of view, doesn't give them enough control.
[00:18:36] lewis-eisen_recording-1_2022-06-28--t05-57-01pm--61157a395affa4006d0cfc64--lollyg: Yeah, we have
[00:18:37] to de formalize it really. and, and yet there's this, this old sort of learned belief around rules that they must be formal in terms of how they sound
[00:18:46] really, really?
[00:18:47] lewis-eisen_recording-1_2022-06-28--t05-57-01pm--guest758906--lewis-eisen: They must be strict. Absolutely. And that's, that's absolutely not the case. I recommend rules be often they start with three and they simp. They simply be, they should be in the same tone of voice, you know, if you had somebody new to the office, And you see, let me show you around and tell you how we do things.
[00:19:02] We put this over there, we file this here. If somebody does this, we do this, we do this. That's the tone of voice you want. I'm just gonna explain to you how this works. And I think we should assume positive intent. We're writing for the people who want to do the right thing and want to comply. my doctor's office has a sign behind the receptionist that. Aggressiveness will not be tolerated. Absolutely not. Authorities will be called so yeah, really it's very striking. So there's two problems with that. First is do we actually think that that tone of voice and the sign prevents aggressive people from being aggressive? I don't think so. In terms of effectiveness now, more serious than that, it reflects on the receptionist sitting behind there.
[00:19:46] They're actually really nice. But it makes it look like they're primed for a fight. And when people come to the HR department and they've read your policies and the policies sound like you're primed for a fight, you're ready to be, you're ready to cover your butt. And you're not gonna have anyone pull anything over on you, you know, that's and it's the way very often they sound
[00:20:10] it reflects on the whole department.
[00:20:13] lewis-eisen_recording-1_2022-06-28--t05-57-01pm--61157a395affa4006d0cfc64--lollyg: there's something very visual. That's invoked in that example of the receptionist sign, aggressiveness will not be tolerated because immediately when you said that I'm I had this vision of, oh my God, this receptionist has been engaged in some kind of violent altercation.
[00:20:28] I was thinking more that she'd been abused by, you know, a patient or something like that. But but it wasn't a pleasant kind of, you know, response.
[00:20:35] lewis-eisen_recording-1_2022-06-28--t05-57-01pm--guest758906--lewis-eisen: So one, so the first thing is that yes, we are. We are looking like we're primed for a fight. The second thing is we're not just looking like that to us. We're looking like that to the entire world. So if you've got people, for instance, that belong to governments that are required to put their policies out online, Not only do I know that you're frustrated about this problem, everybody's gonna know you're frustrated a problem, so I can look at your policy and see what your internal problems are, cuz you've just announced them to me in all of these these different issues you have, that's not the point of, of your policy to be able to do that.
[00:21:08] lewis-eisen_recording-1_2022-06-28--t05-57-01pm--61157a395affa4006d0cfc64--lollyg: Yeah, well, it comes back to, you know, policies being written in response to certain more extreme, you know, behaviors and so on. Th this is so great. Okay. So we were talking
Marker
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[00:21:18] lewis-eisen_recording-1_2022-06-28--t05-57-01pm--61157a395affa4006d0cfc64--lollyg: a little while ago about, I was sharing with you. I remembered when the, the CEO of, of general motors, Mary Barra came out with this brand new dress code and it turns out it was in 2009.
[00:21:29] I was thinking it was more recent. I guess COVID has messed, messed me up in
[00:21:32] terms of memory right along with everybody else. But there were, they had this 10 page dress coat, you know, that outlined all the things you should or should not wear. And she replaced it with a two. Dress code the two words are dress appropriately. And what was interesting about this was that the initial reaction was from HR. There was huge backlash from her HR department, followed by people leaders saying, well, how can we possibly enforce this when we don't have particulars and specifics? And you had shared a little bit about Nordstrom's approach.
[00:22:04] lewis-eisen_recording-1_2022-06-28--t05-57-01pm--guest758906--lewis-eisen: Nordstrom is uh, one of leaders in customer service. And they have taken a very strong culture of empowerment with all their sales people, and it shows up in the policy suite. They have one policy in the employee handbook. It's use your best judgment. That's the rule. There are no other rules. And obviously there are many organizations that have say medical issues, safety issues.
[00:22:29] They, they can't just afford not to lose the sale. There, there are worse things that would go wrong. But the, the point is still that. Nordstrom is comfortable empowering its employees and in setting a policy that teaches people how to be empowered. But one of the other things I can advise HR people is that sometimes they are uncomfortable giving someone a discretion to be able to say, have a policy that says the manager has the discretion to do this, and you get upset, but the policy is incomplete.
[00:22:57] Simply saying the manager has the discretion, the following. Are the considerations to be used when exercising the discretion, the length of time, the severity of the event, the whatever it is so that you are, you are now equipping the manager. You're giving them the authority. You're giving them discretion.
[00:23:16] You're giving them the tools with which they can make their decision. That's
[00:23:20] lewis-eisen_recording-1_2022-06-28--t05-57-01pm--61157a395affa4006d0cfc64--lollyg: which is a, a beautiful thing, but in, in a sense, and also very scary, cuz I, cause I work with a lot of tele management leaders and I can tell you and have having been there myself. I think that there's a lot of consideration that needs to happen in terms of how you. Support your leaders with that kind, that level of empowerment, because more often than not, people are looking for a black and white kind of binary answer or, or direction, they, they don't feel comfortable with.
[00:23:49] Any level of gray or ambiguity. So it's around helping people step into that. So, so for listeners, I'm thinking, you know, the, a good question today into would be okay, so how do we start to get people comfortable with this? Right. And, and see that there's value in being able to, to gauge each, each situation and context based on its own merit and act according.
[00:24:13] lewis-eisen_recording-1_2022-06-28--t05-57-01pm--guest758906--lewis-eisen: Is perfectly right. We obviously Nordstrom can't have that policy without a good deal of training. Right. They, they don't just bring in somebody off the street and say, here's your best judgment.
[00:24:23] lewis-eisen_recording-1_2022-06-28--t05-57-01pm--61157a395affa4006d0cfc64--lollyg: figure it out.
[00:24:24] lewis-eisen_recording-1_2022-06-28--t05-57-01pm--guest758906--lewis-eisen: Yeah, that's it. Cuz that's, that's not what it's about.
[00:24:27] lewis-eisen_recording-1_2022-06-28--t05-57-01pm--61157a395affa4006d0cfc64--lollyg: Yeah. Yeah. So, so I mean, there's a, there's this, this idea of, of switching things up and starting to treat people with respect, you know, in an inclusive way as adults who can control their behavior and face consequences, if they so choose, right. Like just
[00:24:43] be open about that. And, and with that, there's a responsibility to make sure that they understand everything that's involved in.
[00:24:49] That what's also interesting to me, that's sort of coming up and. This happens to me a lot Lewis. So bear with me as I get these sort of like little connections that fly across my brain when I'm talking to interesting people and, and it's this, this concept. You know, HR doesn't wanna be seen as the police.
[00:25:06] You know, I used to joke, I, I did sort of an HR director gig for about five years. Most of the rest of the time I was more in OD or operations or learning and so on. And you know, I used to feel as though sometimes I'd walk into a room and the person already had no painted on their forehead. Right. Or, or they were sort of, you know,
[00:25:23] doing sort of the cross at me like, oh, the police or
[00:25:26] you, like, there was, there's a
[00:25:27] lewis-eisen_recording-1_2022-06-28--t05-57-01pm--guest758906--lewis-eisen: the people
[00:25:28] lewis-eisen_recording-1_2022-06-28--t05-57-01pm--61157a395affa4006d0cfc64--lollyg: of a immediate distrust.
[00:25:29] Well, before they even know. Because you, you have, there's this perception that you're the rules enforcer, and while HR resents that, and doesn't want that for themselves, when they write policies that are so focused on, you know, controlling others. I'm not saying everybody does this, but there's this sort of unwitting tendency, then they're kind of reinforcing that perception.
[00:25:51] lewis-eisen_recording-1_2022-06-28--t05-57-01pm--guest758906--lewis-eisen: So I have to tell you one of the things I found when I was practicing law, is that a client might come in and say, oh, I think I'd like to do this with my organization. I wanna do ABC. And I'd say, no, not a good idea. Here's what you need to do according to the law, X, Y, Z. And they'd say, oh, okay, thanks. And they're gonna do a Y ABC anyway.
[00:26:09] So I would send them a letter saying you came in, we. I told you to do X, Y, Z, then you're an adult. I didn't go home and have a glass of wine. Do you know what happens to, to policymakers? Like in, in corporate services, when somebody doesn't listen to their advice, they get depressed. Nobody loves me.
[00:26:25] Nobody's listening to me. I told them to follow the advice and they're not listening. They take this as a series of disrespect. So part of that is to change. I think the perspective of. Contribution to the organization. So as a subject matter expert in whatever field you're in as a policy writer, I think your job is to be able to come up with the rule, a defensible rationale for why the rule is the way it is, and a clear statement of the risk for not following the rule. There may be at the same time, some kind of enforcement mechanism that needs to take place, but that's a separate mechanism and that might be an HR disciplinary process. That's independent. It might be audit and evaluation going through and writing a report. It might be somebody at the system improvement office or wherever, wherever you are.
[00:27:20] There may be a consequence section, but as the policy writer. Your job is really to explain the rationale, offer the help, but you can't take responsibility for somebody thumbing their nose at it and saying, I don't want it.
[00:27:35] lewis-eisen_recording-1_2022-06-28--t05-57-01pm--61157a395affa4006d0cfc64--lollyg: Right.
[00:27:36] lewis-eisen_recording-1_2022-06-28--t05-57-01pm--guest758906--lewis-eisen: can't own that.
[00:27:37] lewis-eisen_recording-1_2022-06-28--t05-57-01pm--61157a395affa4006d0cfc64--lollyg: that's interesting. Yeah, that's a, that's a really great point. Now. What about, so there, there's this idea too, that, that we had talked about earlier of, you know, you've got the writer, the people that are
[00:27:48] coming up with the defensible rationale and then there's the enforcers, right?
[00:27:52] so so what happens though?
[00:27:54] When, when in some cases those are one in the.
[00:27:58] lewis-eisen_recording-1_2022-06-28--t05-57-01pm--guest758906--lewis-eisen: So let let's start with a proper functional process. And my guest example always is a city municipal municipality that has speed limits. There are people, people in municipality who have to decide whether you get to go 40, 50, 60, 70 miles or kilometers on the road. and they have to come up with a defensible rationale for why they chose that.
[00:28:20] And they have to make sure that signs are posted so people know what it is, and they need to be able to explain the problem if you don't follow it. And that's it. A whole separate group of people does the enforcement and they don't care about the rationale. They don't, you can't argue with them that this road was badly marked that's that's not their.
[00:28:40] I always wonder, do we think that the people, I mean, if I, I often ask people, you say you want a hundred percent compliance with your policies, your HR policies, do you, what percent compliance do we have with the speeding policies in your area? Usually a lot lower. Do you think that the people who work at city hall who write those rules go home and cry at night?
[00:29:00] Cuz no one's following them. I don't think. Every once in a while, an organization puts the policy writer in a terrible position because they do give them the responsibility of playing the cop of enforcement without the training or the tools of authority or authority. And that's a really bad problem at one of my Offices a it policy came out and it said the head of it is responsible for enforcing this policy.
[00:29:27] And I walked across to the auditors who are sitting there, scratching their head and they're going, how can a corporate support area support a policy enforce a policy? Are they gonna give that group the right to go and inspect their books? Well, no, I don't think so. Are they gonna give that group the right to go and interview the managers of that?
[00:29:47] I don't are they gonna give them the right to put somebody into that business area to monitor what's going on? We have those rights. That's how we do enforcement. How can they expect somebody else to do enforcement unless they give them that? So, no, no doubt. There are some people who are put in a very bad situation being given responsibility with no tools, training or authority.
[00:30:08] lewis-eisen_recording-1_2022-06-28--t05-57-01pm--61157a395affa4006d0cfc64--lollyg: That's yeah, it's tough. And, and it made me think of respect in the workplace investigations and how at one company where, you know, I have great deal of respect for Franklin Templeton. We always brought in an external investigator to lead. Now you might have folks within HR do some of the interviews, but under his supervision.
[00:30:28] And and there was a reason for that, right? It was a credibility piece. It was also about clear roles, delineation of roles and responsibilities. And, you know, cause the respect in the workplace policy was an HR policy and was being upheld essentially by folks
[00:30:42] within HR. But with that externalized support.
[00:30:44] So.
[00:30:44] lewis-eisen_recording-1_2022-06-28--t05-57-01pm--guest758906--lewis-eisen: Now, let me turn to the other side of that though, which is, I talked about making sure that your policies reflect the value behind it. . So if you can make those values clear, then instead of people saying, well, that policy doesn't apply to me, what they'll say is, okay, I guess I need to hit this value.
[00:31:04] I, I maybe can't do this policy this way, but can you help me negotiate this and hit this value? And that's a whole different. For them to come in and sometimes, yeah, in fact, they can follow the policy and sometimes they can't, but the reason they are willing is because they see the value behind it. It's only when they don't understand that value that they'll come in and say, well, that's just a rule you're trying to control me.
[00:31:28] lewis-eisen_recording-1_2022-06-28--t05-57-01pm--61157a395affa4006d0cfc64--lollyg: Yeah. Yeah. Can you give us yet one more example, just to illustrate that with the value coming first and for it being crystal clear,
[00:31:35] lewis-eisen_recording-1_2022-06-28--t05-57-01pm--guest758906--lewis-eisen: A lot of organizations have a rule about employees not being allowed to swap their entry passes, to share the entry passes, or they have to always show them when they come in, when they come out from an employee's point of view, normally that's just a control mechanism. They're just they're control freaks, but that's not what it's about.
[00:31:54] Right? It's about safety. Now, if the policy says you're not allowed to swap passes, no matter what. We have no value behind there except control. So of course there are gonna be people that wanna resist and ignore it. But what if we turned that around and said, no, our policy is that we will take responsibility for the safety of everybody that we know is in the building.
[00:32:17] That's our policy. And the way we're gonna do that is by having a number of things in place. And one of them is a procedure that tells people the prohibit. Procedure that prohibits policy swapping. Now, when they come, we're not dealing with the procedure we're gonna address the policy. That is our goal is to be able to make sure, you know, I'm in the building so that because I support this, I'm supporting the value behind it.
[00:32:42] For most people. That's just not clear. You know, we, we're just not aware of what the values are, that's that are running the other parts of the organization. And in many cases, our bosses have given us a different. Right. They, you know, we have to get the skis sold or the, you know, whatever's the fruit delivered or the book print, whatever it is we have to do.
[00:33:03] That's on my agenda. And I don't understand what the passes have to do with my selling skis.
[00:33:10] lewis-eisen_recording-1_2022-06-28--t05-57-01pm--61157a395affa4006d0cfc64--lollyg: There's
[00:33:10] lewis-eisen_recording-1_2022-06-28--t05-57-01pm--guest758906--lewis-eisen: That's why it's so important to bring it up to a common, to a common level.
[00:33:14] lewis-eisen_recording-1_2022-06-28--t05-57-01pm--61157a395affa4006d0cfc64--lollyg: Yeah. Oh, it's also fascinating.
[00:33:16] lewis-eisen_recording-1_2022-06-28--t05-57-01pm--guest758906--lewis-eisen: I mentioned before on how the staff wears this attitude, right? That it's not just, they're not just wearing it to people in the organization. I can't tell you the number of times someone has said we interviewed a new HR director. She was gonna come in, we had a great interview.
[00:33:33] And then she asked to see the policies and she said, oh my God, you, people are not who you say, you. You talked to me about empowerment and everything. You gave me this great vibe, but I'm reading what, the way you're talking to people in these, sorry, you're not who you say you are.
[00:33:49] lewis-eisen_recording-1_2022-06-28--t05-57-01pm--61157a395affa4006d0cfc64--lollyg: Oh,
[00:33:49] lewis-eisen_recording-1_2022-06-28--t05-57-01pm--guest758906--lewis-eisen: We all wear them. We wear them whether we wrote them or not.
[00:33:54] lewis-eisen_recording-1_2022-06-28--t05-57-01pm--61157a395affa4006d0cfc64--lollyg: I bet you there's some listeners who right now just wrote that down when I'm interviewing for my next job, I'm gonna ask to see the policy book an interesting
[00:34:01] way to get an inside peak,
[00:34:03] although to, to people's credit. Sometimes it may be that, you know, they are, it's more, they just don't know how to write these policies.
[00:34:10] Right. So, so, You know, and as that carryover from the, the 40 plus years of, of writing, like we're, we're talking to naughty children. So I'd, I'd like to, to connect into something that we've all been going through for the last few years, which is a global pandemic. And out of that pandemic came a lot of new rules that were imposed.
[00:34:30] Right. And I'm not here to debate about whether people agree with those rules or vaccination, completely agnostic about that. But for. being told that you had to have a mask to enter a store. I saw different examples at different businesses that would explain what the requirement was. Some of them were nicer than others.
[00:34:49] Let's put it
[00:34:49] that way. What did you see any, any kind of, experiences you could share with us?
[00:34:54] lewis-eisen_recording-1_2022-06-28--t05-57-01pm--guest758906--lewis-eisen: the worst thing you can do. I think first of all, is be divisive to say something like customers must wear a mask. It suggests that they don't have to wear a mask, but you have to wear a mask. Okay. So the, the better way clearly would be to say, and a, we statement always works.
[00:35:09] We are wearing masks in this store and we appreciate your support, you know, and that's absolutely the, the way to do it, to make sure that. You're asking people to cooperate. This is the other thing we don't want obedience. I mean that a lot of these policies are written with the notion that I'm gonna get obedience, whether they like it or not.
[00:35:28] No, what we want is will cheerful, cooperation. That's what we want. So write a sentence, a statement that people can look at and say, I'm happy to cooperate with that.
[00:35:40] lewis-eisen_recording-1_2022-06-28--t05-57-01pm--61157a395affa4006d0cfc64--lollyg: Yeah. So it's clear it's the value is, is completely obvious and it's simply written
[00:35:47] right in praying language. And there's
[00:35:49] lewis-eisen_recording-1_2022-06-28--t05-57-01pm--guest758906--lewis-eisen: no
[00:35:50] Right, right. So the another example I see in HR is all vacation requests must be received seven days in advance, or they will be refused.
[00:35:58] lewis-eisen_recording-1_2022-06-28--t05-57-01pm--61157a395affa4006d0cfc64--lollyg: Yeah.
[00:35:58] lewis-eisen_recording-1_2022-06-28--t05-57-01pm--guest758906--lewis-eisen: Well, I can't look at a, a policy with a threat and say, I love it. It's just not gonna happen.
[00:36:05] lewis-eisen_recording-1_2022-06-28--t05-57-01pm--61157a395affa4006d0cfc64--lollyg: Yeah. Oh my
[00:36:05] God. And the refused word is, so is so, oh boy. Back to the, okay. The mask examples, cuz I, I know a lot of stores where the, they would say like, it'd be right on the front door as you
[00:36:18] entered.
[00:36:19] The government has mandated that everyone entering will be wearing a mask.
[00:36:24] And so there, there seemed to be this underlying desire to not blame the government, but to sort of say, we have to do this.
[00:36:31] Don't, don't be mad at us.
[00:36:33] lewis-eisen_recording-1_2022-06-28--t05-57-01pm--guest758906--lewis-eisen: I agree. And that's, it's actually a terrible message. Okay. And I'll give you a real example that I found in one place. I saw an organization that had a policy that says this is a Canadian example. According to the Canada labor code, we are required to train you on all the skills you need for your job.
[00:36:49] In other words, you're not doing it cuz you want trained employees. You're doing it. Cuz the law says. This is your message. Okay. Now we are happy to train you. We'd love you to be no we're training you cuz the law says we have and that's what's going on here. We don't care about your welfare. We're doing it.
[00:37:04] Cuz the law says we have to do it. Terrible message to come out.
[00:37:07] lewis-eisen_recording-1_2022-06-28--t05-57-01pm--61157a395affa4006d0cfc64--lollyg: It's F it's really. Wow. There's, there's so much here because you know, I've often said that language precedes behavior,
[00:37:14] right. And we are meaning making machines. So we're all interpreting at any given time what somebody else's means. But what somebody else means with the words that they use. So even more reason to be thoughtful and intentional about how we communicate and what we choose to emphasize, which in this case is, is the value of what we're asking people to do versus the consequence, So I think you've, you've painted that picture really beautifully for us today. Really really excellent conversation. So, so Lewis just, you know, we're coming to the end of our time together. So, you know, my last question for you would be What is your biggest piece of advice for for talent management leaders?
[00:37:55] You know, they're, they're very fatigued coming out of this, this pandemic they've had to do all sorts of things. They never dreamt. They'd have to do enforce vaccine mandates and so on. But when it comes to, to, to policy and creating willing followers who are happy and engaged and safe and secure, what would you offer?
[00:38:13] lewis-eisen_recording-1_2022-06-28--t05-57-01pm--guest758906--lewis-eisen: My best principle really is assume positive intent.
[00:38:17] we have a lot of people working from home and then we have people going back to the office and we are putting in some policies about people still being able to work from home. And the wrong thing to do is to say, I'm putting these in cuz I don't want people to abuse them.
[00:38:31] If that's our approach, we have to put in things, cuz people are going to abuse us. If we don't, we've already lost. I think we need to assume positive intent. People want to do the right thing. And I have to mention as well, you know, some people work for unionized environments and they'll say something like, oh, well the union objects, if we don't do this, they're gonna make it.
[00:38:51] You know what? No, you sit down with a union and you say, we would like to come up with a. that's respectful to our, our people. And that clearly indicates that something is mandatory. What wording can we say? I mean, if we just use is required, if we put an asterisk next to it, meaning it's mandatory. Will that be good enough for you?
[00:39:12] We're trying to do this. Respectfully union will be happy to oblige to work out something. This shouldn't be a defensive posture, right? This shouldn't be everybody's gonna try and get away and abuse the.
[00:39:25] lewis-eisen_recording-1_2022-06-28--t05-57-01pm--61157a395affa4006d0cfc64--lollyg: Oh, absolutely. And I'm so
[00:39:26] glad you brought that up because I see a lot of fear for a lot of HR and labor folks. When it comes to actually sitting down with the unions and saying, Hey, let's, let's collaborate on this. Like what's
[00:39:35] gonna work for, you know, our shared interest, which is people wellbeing.
[00:39:38] Right. And, and
[00:39:39] being treated well. So. . Yeah. Beautiful. Thank you so much, Louis. This has been fascinating and I've thoroughly enjoyed your insights today.
[00:39:48] lewis-eisen_recording-1_2022-06-28--t05-57-01pm--guest758906--lewis-eisen: you're welcome.
