[00:00:00] You know those conferences where you go and listen to some speakers, pick up a new idea or two, maybe exchange a few business cards here and there. You get slightly inspired and refreshed, and then you go back to work and get swept back up in the busyness of it all. Never getting around to applying what you learned.
[00:01:16] That's why I offer free monthly talent talks. For busy talent leaders like you, we spend time discussing essential topics in small breakout groups and facilitated large group discussions. We develop our networks and we pool our expertise. You walk away with not only ideas, but realistic steps for how you will apply your shiny new learning.
[00:01:38] Register [email protected] slash talent talks. See you. Have you ever been frustrated by a small talent pool, a lack of qualified candidates, or by hiring managers fixated on candidates having certain degrees or credential? If yes, this episode is for you. My guest is Lou Adler. Lou is the CEO and founder of Performance Based Hiring Learning Systems, a consulting and training firm, helping recruiters and hiring managers around the World Source Interview and hire the strongest and most diverse talent.
[00:02:18] He is an author and LinkedIn learning trainer and a prolific blogger. Please see the links in the show notes for all of the details about where to find him, and so allow me to present to you my conversation with Lou. Thanks for listening. Hello and welcome to Talent Management Truth. I'm your host, Lisa Mitchell, and today I'm joined by Lou Adler. Lou is CEO of the Adler Group, the Adler Group is creator of a performance based hiring learning system. It's a pleasure to have you on the show today, Lou. Welcome.
[00:02:52] lou-adler_recording-1_2022-08-23--t06-14-05pm--guest458235--lou-adler: Thank you very much, Lisa, for inviting me. I look forward to chatting with.
[00:02:55] lou-adler_recording-1_2022-08-23--t06-14-05pm--61157a395affa4006d0cfc64--lollyg: Absolutely. My pleasure. So, so let's begin, as I typically do with sharing with our listeners a little bit about your professional background. you've had an interesting journey.
[00:03:05] lou-adler_recording-1_2022-08-23--t06-14-05pm--guest458235--lou-adler: Yeah, well actually it was real weird because I didn't I've been a recruiter in the recruiting space for 40, 45 years now, but my first 10 years industry, I was in engineering, manufacturing, budgeting, and planning logistics and supply chain. I had a lot of jobs. I just said, Hey, I want to do that and I want to do that, and.
[00:03:21] People let me do it. But then I got one job, was running a small manufacturing company and had a group president who he and I clashed. I was pretty much a wise acre kid. every two weeks he came down to the office and I yelled and screamed at him and he yelled and screamed at me and I quit.
[00:03:37] And finally gave a six month notice, quit four times and decided to become an executive recruiter, only really to look for another job. But as I got into executive recruiting, I realized it was a business process. You could actually, if you followed certain rules and regulations, there was a lot of emotion and human nature in it, but there was some actual practical business and science, and I kind of captured that, and that eventually became performance based hiring.
[00:04:02] lou-adler_recording-1_2022-08-23--t06-14-05pm--61157a395affa4006d0cfc64--lollyg: Wonderful. Well, tell us a little bit about you know, your definition of performance based hiring.
[00:04:08] lou-adler_recording-1_2022-08-23--t06-14-05pm--guest458235--lou-adler: Well, let me kind of give it as a story. You know, I've given the story before my first search assignment, which I think really sets the stage, was for a plant manager in the automotive industry, and I knew the president of the company and because I gave six months notice, I kinda went out in the industry and people I knew and say, I'm gonna become a recruiter.
[00:04:24] Which a lot of people thought was pretty dumb, and in some way I kind of thought was a little dumb too at the time, but I decided to give it a shot and the support of my wife. But the first assignment I took was for a plant manager in the automotive industry and the p. When he said, Hey, Lou, welcome aboard, or Welcome, here's the project.
[00:04:38] I need someone with 10 to 15 years experience. This kind of degree, this kind of engineering background, this kind of manufacturing background, this kind of industry experience, these kind of personality traits, and had to list this. It was handwritten. I think maybe somewhat was tight, but and I said, Mike, that's not a job description.
[00:04:54] That's a person description. A job doesn't have skills, experience and competencies. A job has stuff that people need to. Let's put the person description in the parking lot. What do you want the person to do? So this is my manufacturing and engineering background. It just was such a logical question.
[00:05:10] let's talk about the job, not the person doing the job. He said, That's kinda interesting. He said, I want someone to turn around the plant. So we walked out in the plant. It was a big plant 250,000 square feet I guess, or so. And we walked through the plant of two thirds of it was manufacturing, a little bit of warehousing.
[00:05:25] The layout of the plant was terrible. The machining processes were clumsy. A lot of scrap labor performance was marginal. The quality control you could see was sloppy. So we just came up with six or seven things on how the person had to turn around the plant in terms of profit and manufacturing process improvements over the course of the year 12 to 18 months.
[00:05:44] That and we're doing, about a month later, we found a candidate in the hire or somebody. I've never used after 1500 search projects. Sometimes we do 'em ourselves. Sometimes we help other companies. I always ask the question, what does this person need to do to be successful? I've never used the job description, listing skills, experience, and competencies.
[00:06:00] Now obviously we have to. So that's the first step is how do you define the work? Second step, you gotta find candidates who not competent and motivated to do that work. And I tell my clients we're never gonna compromise on the work, just the mix and skills experience. Gimme a break there cuz that's the variable.
[00:06:16] the work isn't a variable that you have to get done. And if they can do the work, they have all the skills and experience on the other side. If you want a good person, they have to see that. Job's a career move. So pre-qualifying candidates requires two sides to the. So we just really spent a lot of time talking to semifinalists, not anybody else, just those two.
[00:06:35] Now we've gotta interview those candidates properly. So that's the third step. Obviously the candidate has to be competent and motivated to do that work in that environment and see that jobs or career remove. And the fourth step is the close. Rarely will companies have the most money to offer, but if they have the best career opportunity to offer, then it's a win.
[00:06:53] Obviously the package gotta. Competitive. Once it's above a threshold, the other stuff matters more. And I tell candidates, no, look at this as a one to two to three year career move. That's where your growth will take place. Yeah, I know the comp year one and the start date has to be competitive, but look at this as a growth opportunity with a competitive comp, not just what you get on the start date.
[00:07:15] So that was the issue, and I see too many candidates focus. The start date with not a real insight with the respect to the job itself and where it's going. And in my mind, that's really caused number one lack of job satisfaction and also the cause of the great resignation. Always looking for something, but they don't know what they're looking for.
[00:07:32] And I think performance based hiring defines a process of what to look for to get career growth and from both the candidate standpoint and the company standpoint.
[00:07:40] lou-adler_recording-1_2022-08-23--t06-14-05pm--61157a395affa4006d0cfc64--lollyg: Yeah, I really appreciate that you're coming at it from both perspectives, right? Because it takes two to tango and both sides need to get some satisfaction through the process. You know what else that makes me think of is, is this wasn't, the result of coming through an interview process necessarily, but I left a 10 year.
[00:07:57] You know, job, career in a really great, great company, Franklin Templeton, and went somewhere, which is no longer in business by the way. I left before they went under, it was Sears, Canada. But I went from a director role to a director role and there was, there was a change in the allocation of compensation, but, but the net, there was no net difference essentially.
[00:08:14] So, I didn't take a haircut, but I didn't get an increase necessarily. But the reason I went, it was a former mentor and leader of mine who had reached out. You know, it wasn't a formal interview process, but she was able to paint the picture of just what was in it for me in terms of growth. Cuz I had 60 people in my downstream and I had multiple geographic locations and so on.
[00:08:33] And it was a really, really important stepping stone I would say, from my next role, which, which was at the VP level. So I appreciate what you're saying right. Is, is helping people sort of map
[00:08:43] out like
[00:08:43] what's the
[00:08:43] value
[00:08:44] lou-adler_recording-1_2022-08-23--t06-14-05pm--guest458235--lou-adler: What's I say, it's a trust on both sides. I mean, you knew this person and you trusted her and she trusted you. And it's the same thing when you don't know somebody, it's a risk to hire somebody. That's why when you, we think we really emphasize the opportunity of networking, but it's also clarity of expectations.
[00:09:00] You can develop that trust as a, not gonna remember. The third party recruiter is always kind of the go between on these. So if that person's not trusting and how do you develop trust? The recruiter knows the hiring manager, knows the job in the company, and then can relay that to the candidate as well.
[00:09:16] There's a trust built just on knowledge, not just on I'll call it the hustle. And I think too many people in the recruiting hustle to close the job and put it definitely puts a bad taste in the whole process and increases the likelihood that there's gonna be a mistake made some.
[00:09:30] lou-adler_recording-1_2022-08-23--t06-14-05pm--61157a395affa4006d0cfc64--lollyg: Right. So, so do you, so would you say in, in when you're training people in, in organizations, are you training mainly third party recruiters or in your system, or is it people within, you know, recruiters that are inside organizations?
[00:09:46] lou-adler_recording-1_2022-08-23--t06-14-05pm--guest458235--lou-adler: I actually, we have a program, we call it the case study, is we really like recruiters and hiring managers to work together on a search project. So we train hiring managers and recruit. We do it independently and together, and we do third party recruiters and company recruiters.
[00:09:59] But the best is when recruiters and hiring managers work on a search project and go through each one. Let's define the job and let's know it, Let's go find semi-finalists. Let's go interview candidates. Let's debrief 'em in a panel. Let's show how it works and let's close together. When they do it together, they actually learn it.
[00:10:16] It's kind of a hands on as opposed to a lecture. Most training in my mind. Even our, I think our training is great, but if you do it independently and don't do it, it's just training. But when you actually do it in the field and actually talk to candidates and actually mess up and have candidates say no, and that can't get the referral, you really learn when you're actually doing it.
[00:10:34] So learn by doing is the right way to do it, and making mistakes along the way is part of the learning process.
[00:10:40] lou-adler_recording-1_2022-08-23--t06-14-05pm--61157a395affa4006d0cfc64--lollyg: Here. Here, Absolutely applied learning all the way. I love it. Okay, so, So we started to, I. Dig in a little bit further to some of the part parts of your process here. So, you know, you started with how do you define the work? So instead of, you know, coming up with a person description, let's get an actual job description around what do we want the person to do.
[00:10:59] So, so what would you, could you give us a couple of examples to paint the picture of, you know, a j you know, the job description that is more of a person description that you've seen recently, and how you would tweak it to be,
[00:11:11] lou-adler_recording-1_2022-08-23--t06-14-05pm--guest458235--lou-adler: Let me give you one from about 20 years ago and one from about two weeks ago.
[00:11:16] So as it gives you the whole idea of why managers fight this, so I, it was an assign. I had worked with one company and that president of that company was on the board of another company, said, Lou our CEO is looking for a VP marketing.
[00:11:28] He doesn't know what he's looking for. And he said, And you might get the search assignment. So this would've big search assignment. It was when the internet was really exploding and the 2002 through, around that timeframe. So I went in to see this fellow up in Silicon Valley, California, and he. I want a MBA from top school like Stanford.
[00:11:49] Do E from a top school of Cal Tech or Stanford should have an master's degree in at least 10 years in this business. And he, and he said, then he was kind of complaining that like, why are you te, why are you even here? Have you ever done a search like that? Have you ever done this? How many people do you know?
[00:12:04] And he was really giving me the riot act and didn't want me there, which is. Not uncommon, but the chairman was this guy that I knew, so he kind of had to do it. And I said, Lee, just let me ask you this question. You've hired a person over the course of a year and he turns out to be exactly what you want.
[00:12:21] And you're in front of the board a year from today, and you want to give this fellow a bigger bonus or more stock options. What does a person accomplish that you can fully state this as a great person? And he is like a half hour entry. He says, Adler, you're finally asking me a smart. This is what he said, You're finally uh, and he said, I want this person.
[00:12:42] The biggest thing, a three year product roadmap that details exactly where the technology's going, exactly the take product lines we can offer. And using our engineering and leveraging our engineering talent and just filling in some critical positions where we have voice. This person's gotta know that inside and out. And I said, Okay. What if I could find someone who's done that work and I will not compromise on that work. They've done that kind of work, but they don't have a necessary, The MBA from Stanford, I know they gotta be a good business person, so I'm not compromising. Maybe they, I know they have to have strong technology.
[00:13:16] I don't know where the degree is. They certainly have to know the internet space and be able to convert with engineers, so I won't compromise in that. They have to do something complicated and similar. Would you at least see the person, he said, Absolut? No question. Now I've just, he said, I just told you that, I mean, it was like he went from berating me completely to once I had him walk through what the job was.
[00:13:37] So the first step is the big project and then the, then there's a series of substeps. Substep might be in the first 30, 60, 90 days, understand the business. Next 36 days, lay that into a trend of where the product line is going. Mesh the two together, put together and get board approval within six months for a plan, and then begin implementing the plan.
[00:13:56] But there's a sequence of steps that you go through once you have a big project. So that's kind of the way it works, is you just define the work and a sequence of steps. I had someone else who said last week, I need someone who's really got great communication skills. I'm seeing all these people with accents.
[00:14:11] They don't have great communication. And I said, Wait a second, Steve. Gimme a break. Where do they need good communication skills? What does that look like on the job? He said, Well, they've gotta make presentations to my executive team and our board of advisors at least once a month. I said, Fine. I won't compromise on that.
[00:14:30] So we'll get examples of a person making executive presentations on I'll where your business is going and how profit's being improved. A COO role. And we won't compromise on that, but don't make some idiotic comment and I did say this to the guy cuz I that long and I do say this. I, I would not use my in your face approach to get this.
[00:14:48] You can be much more diplomatic. But the idea was, is you convert a competency or skill or behavior into what does this look like on the job. And once you do that, then that becomes the measure. And I think this is where bias and problems occur, is because managers and recruiters don't know what this looks like in the real world.
[00:15:08] Why as a recruiter wanna know what this looks like in rural? Cause that opens a pool to everybody who can do the work, and it takes away some of those biase. Now, I used to get a lot of pushback from HR people, Oh, you can't do that. It's illegal. I talked to the number one labor attorney in the United States from LER Mendelson, which is number one Labor firm in the us and he went through my book Higher With Your Head, and he said, this is the perfect way to open up the talent pool to everybody by focusing on outcomes which are equally as objective as five to 10 years experience, which sound objective.
[00:15:37] Why is it three years experience? Why is it not 20 years experience? It's just cause you put a number before some subjective criteria. Doesn't really make it objective. In fact, it actually narrows the pool to people. And his comment was, it's much better to define the work as a series of performance objectives rather than a list of skills,
[00:15:55] lou-adler_recording-1_2022-08-23--t06-14-05pm--61157a395affa4006d0cfc64--lollyg: Oh, I, I couldn't agree with you more. I'm sort of getting the giggles over here at Lou because I'm thinking about , you know, both myself and then, and then, you know, training teams of, of talent acquisition professionals about how. We, we want to work with hiring managers to figure out like, like, let's define what would we see if we were looking in the window?
[00:16:13] It's someone who's successful, what are they actually accomplishing? What's
[00:16:15] lou-adler_recording-1_2022-08-23--t06-14-05pm--guest458235--lou-adler: it's exactly
[00:16:16] what it is.
[00:16:17] lou-adler_recording-1_2022-08-23--t06-14-05pm--61157a395affa4006d0cfc64--lollyg: Right? Versus, you know, you, you want 'em to come from a particular school or have a certain number of. Years of experience. And hiring managers often fight that. It is kind of tricky for them because it's harder.
[00:16:27] They actually have to think a little more critically. Right. And, and have a, a, a vision about what that could look like. So I, I appreciate the struggle.
[00:16:34] lou-adler_recording-1_2022-08-23--t06-14-05pm--guest458235--lou-adler: Yeah, but equally
[00:16:35] As important. Just on that point, if you look at a couple of studies, Galls Q 12, which was the first. First, what hiring managers do the best first, break all the rules. It's clarify expectations front and hire people who are competent and motivated to do that work. Now I kind of fell into it because to me it was common sense, but there's a lot of studies that supported that.
[00:16:55] I mean, even Google's project Oxygen. So there's a lot of studies that say if you wanna be a good manager, you gotta tell people what to do, given the resources to do it and support and develop them. I mean, and, and you look at all the reasons why people under performance cause of lack of those three. I didn't.
[00:17:09] I just did it because I was giving a one year guarantee for my searches, so I just kind of fell into it. Hey, this is the way I'm gonna have to do it if I want people to stay. But it wasn't done scientifically. It was done from a business point of view perspective.
[00:17:22] lou-adler_recording-1_2022-08-23--t06-14-05pm--61157a395affa4006d0cfc64--lollyg: Right. Yes. Yeah, I hear you well. Okay, so we've talked a bit more about, you know, defining the work and, and what the, the job description should actually look like. Now getting into this piece around how to find the candidates. So you talked about, pre-qualifying candidates and, and trying to interview like, I can't remember what semi-finalists.
[00:17:39] I think. So how, what are, what are your tips? Like what are the best practices
[00:17:43] around
[00:17:44] findings?
[00:17:45] lou-adler_recording-1_2022-08-23--t06-14-05pm--guest458235--lou-adler: Well, the thing is, when I look for a semi, so let's say LinkedIn is an invaluable tool. But it's not in, but it's not invaluable the way most people use it. When you look at LinkedIn, it is a network of 800 million people, not a database of 800 million people. A database means you look for skills, experience, and competencies, and then send emails out.
[00:18:06] A network of 800 million people is, means, I don't know, how many connections do you have, lease on your linked.
[00:18:12] lou-adler_recording-1_2022-08-23--t06-14-05pm--61157a395affa4006d0cfc64--lollyg: Oh I don't know, 3 30, 500, something like
[00:18:15] lou-adler_recording-1_2022-08-23--t06-14-05pm--guest458235--lou-adler: Okay, so nonetheless is, I suspect there's a lot of, and you have a lot of network people in hr, right, On your network. I bet if I have an HR director's level job in Canada or in your area, you probably know a great person. The likelihood that you're gonna give me that person is remote. On the other hand, if I connect with you using LinkedIn recruiter, I can actually search on candidates and ask you, Hey, what do you think of Mary Smith?
[00:18:43] What do you think of Bill Jones? What do you think of Juanita? Sanchez? You would say, Oh, Juanita's great, but she's not looking. I said, But could I use your name? So when you think about LinkedIn is a network and proactively I can, so I can search for semifinalists. Your connection. So I think of an HR spot I had in which in, and it's not your neck of the woods, but it was in central Michigan about a real search I had about seven or eight years ago.
[00:19:07] It was in central Michigan for a company's about $500 million division of another company growing in leaps and bats. I had to find someone who had to relocate. There was nobody there had to relocate to this company. So I looked in Chicago, Detroit, Indianapolis, for people who were directors of. Bigger companies and offered them a VP level title.
[00:19:30] And I wrote a stor, so I was looking for people. So number one, I wrote an ad. I looked for people from those areas. All I looked for is directors of HR who were kind of like generalists, and I looked for people who were directors, so right away and had some recognition. I don't think I look for single si.
[00:19:46] I just look for the title and some kind of recognition that they were pretty good. Meaning they spoke at a conference they had some kind of award or some kind of honor in their background. Obvious. I think they, I looking, in this case, I found so many that I said, Okay, I wanna speaker to Shem conference.
[00:20:02] I said, These people are pretty good. And then I wrote a letter, Hey, I got a company that needs someone to lead the complete turnaround and implementation of a huge hr. If you are interested in something like that, and I, it was a little bit more clever than that cuz it talked about strategy and impact. I said, Look, that set up a chat with you.
[00:20:19] Those was a pretty cool email, but I only sent it by 30 people that I found in those areas. Half of 'em responded in 24 hours.
[00:20:26] lou-adler_recording-1_2022-08-23--t06-14-05pm--61157a395affa4006d0cfc64--lollyg: Yeah,
[00:20:27] lou-adler_recording-1_2022-08-23--t06-14-05pm--guest458235--lou-adler: I mean, they just love the ad and they said, Oh, I'll take to become a VP and spent three years and I'll have to relocate. So that was a semi fund. I knew they were good. They were from a credible company, had a good track record.
[00:20:38] They were recognized for their effort and from the candidate side they'd see the job as a promotion and they could convince their family that, Hey, , I'm re going here cause this is gonna be, this is gonna put us on a better career trajectory. All of those things. I think we found someone in a week and closed the deal four or five weeks later.
[00:20:55] I mean, it's, and LinkedIn gives you that capability.
[00:20:58] I didn't, when I read the email, cuz I still show that email. I didn't put one skill in the email. We need someone to implement a complete HR system.
[00:21:06] if you, and I even said, don't tell me your rhythm. I just, if you've done that, just gimme a quick story of where you've done something like that.
[00:21:11] That's all I said. And we'll arrange a con a conversation with the board and that's what we did. It worked.
[00:21:16] lou-adler_recording-1_2022-08-23--t06-14-05pm--61157a395affa4006d0cfc64--lollyg: what I love here, and I just wanna point out for, for the, for the listeners, is that, you know, this is a really great example of a very active and innovative way to recruit. So instead of just waiting for candidates to, to load up your atm of candidate resumes and so on, so, Your candidate database and so on, or your ats, whatever you use. I'm calling it ATM to be silly, but you know, instead of just waiting for people to enter in through that and then sort through and have the yes no maybes of the resume land, this is actually you know, a more active, but I would argue more efficient process, right?
[00:21:52] To find excellent talent off the
[00:21:54] lou-adler_recording-1_2022-08-23--t06-14-05pm--guest458235--lou-adler: You know, you think about, and this is where I have a problem with posting an individual job. Number one, the best people don't apply, and we all know. At best, 5% of the people who apply are qualified. So if you get a hundred postings, two or three of those people will be interviewed and one might get hired or somebody get referred somewhere else or promoted.
[00:22:14] So you got 95% of the people who apply. You actually have to manage that process now. So you gotta treat these people properly cause they've applied. So now you got all this overhead that you're managing around people who you don't wanna hire to begin. That's a pretty inefficient system. And my approach is I only talk to people who are semifinalists and some of 'em will get the job.
[00:22:35] Some of 'em will get me referrals. So, and I treat these people royal. I mean, there's no question I spend more time with fewer people and they're remarkable people. I've gotta treat them I don't wanna say kid gloves, cuz that's not really what I mean, but it's certainly. Respect their time, respect that this is a career move, respect that they're, it's not an individual decision.
[00:22:55] It's not just about the money. And it's a deliberative process on their side and their family's side as well as on the company side. But you can't do that if you're dealing with hundreds and hundreds of people who have applied that shouldn't have applied to begin with. I've actually had this conversation with job board owners of some of the big ones.
[00:23:11] They don't like the idea. They're in a business of selling job postings. They're in a business, their turnover is good for job boards. They sell more postings. But it's, when you look at it from that standpoint, oh, there's not such a good idea. I mean, they like turnover and churn. They're not in it for people to stay in a job, two to three or four years, they're in it to create more job posting.
[00:23:30] So when you look at it just from that pure, selfish perspective, This is why I'm kind of opposed to boring job postings. I'm not opposed to very compelling job postings that offer people to engage in a different kind of a conversation.
[00:23:42] lou-adler_recording-1_2022-08-23--t06-14-05pm--61157a395affa4006d0cfc64--lollyg: Fair enough. So I do, you know, wanna be pragmatic here for a moment and sort of consider the fact that, you know, this approach I really appreciate it for, for it being very active versus passive and, and innovative As I mentioned, I I, I can see it working so well when it's when you're going. Outside the company.
[00:24:00] Right. But a lot of organizations are really working on developing talent and in internal mobility that is on, like several of my clients, that is their, one of their key deliverables this year is focusing on internal mobility strategies. And so, you know, and, and in, in certainly, Every company I worked in has had a policy of posting every job being transparent about it so that anybody within the organization could you know, there'd be a minimum.
[00:24:26] It has to be posted internally for three days or five days. That is a really typical policy, at least here in Canada and with the US organizations I've worked with. So what do you do there? Like what, what, what? Thoughts around the fact that, you know, like you have to be fair and, ensure opportunities for, for equity and inclusivity.
[00:24:43] And yet it does inflate potentially the pool of candidates that you have to work through and they may not all be qualified. Any thoughts on that?
[00:24:52] lou-adler_recording-1_2022-08-23--t06-14-05pm--guest458235--lou-adler: Absolutely. Let's say, first off, the idea of internal mobility is mandatory, but what does that really mean? Now the question is how do you implement that policy? That's where it's kind of silly. I mean, so when I make the pitch to my candidates that this is a long-term career move it's not just a what do you get on the start date?
[00:25:09] Move then says, Okay, what is, what does it take to have a long-term career move? It means that the job is. What you're gonna be doing in terms of the work is motivating and fulfilling that the company's gonna invest in you in terms of learning and training. The hiring manager's gonna provide you the resources to become better and the manager is gonna promote you and offer you to other divisions and other opportunity.
[00:25:31] That is all part of this idea of hiring for the long term. We call it win-win hiring, where both the candidate and the hiring manager say, After a year, I'm so glad you took this job. And the candidate says, I'm so glad I'm. But to fulfill that, the company's gotta deliver on the promise. So totally support that.
[00:25:50] Is posting a job, a boring job? The meaning to me, that's kind of silly. That's not what you call, Oh, I'm posting all these boring jobs and you have an opportunity to go to 'em. No. Post real jobs with real meaning and give people a career opportunity and proactively tell 'em, Hey, if they're good people, let's be real frankly.
[00:26:07] So the reason that person reached out to you, you took that job cuz she knew you were. Managers know people are good internally. The, so 25% of the people are already part of this internal mobility process. We already know they're good. You gotta get the manager to be a little bit more open minded that they don't want to steal their best people.
[00:26:24] Well, too bad you're gonna be stolen. That part of your job is a third half of your department has to leave in two years cuz you've promoted them. And development, that's a hiring manager issue. So to me, the idea of giving a job posting internally before it's publicly outside, A silly answer to a very serious and important problem.
[00:26:44] It's like we haven't really thought through it, so we'll do that. That's because we gotta do, it's the legal thing. So again, I'm a real pragmatic engineer. I mean, I literally, when I was 22 years old, I was assigned and I didn't know anything. But I was given the project of when do we blow up a nuclear missile when it's off course.
[00:27:01] Well, sometimes you gotta dig deep into problems and understand the root cause and say, Okay, is this really the best solution or is it a. In my mind, your question is a bandaid, and it's kind of a silly solution to a very important and serious problem of internal mobility.
[00:27:14] lou-adler_recording-1_2022-08-23--t06-14-05pm--61157a395affa4006d0cfc64--lollyg: Yeah. Yeah. It's, it's . It's a potentially complex one, but I can tell you that people would be thinking about, Oh, okay, okay. How do, how do we translate this here? So thanks for that answer. So let's go on to the next stage around. You know, you mentioned finding the candidates and pre-qualifying them, and then it's interviewing them properly.
[00:27:32] So what does properly look like to you?
[00:27:34] lou-adler_recording-1_2022-08-23--t06-14-05pm--guest458235--lou-adler: Well, this is a, So I kinda remember a program I kinda lucked out as part of this, as my next door neighbor was part of a business. And we were chatting one day This's, 30 years, maybe more than that. And he said, Lou, why don't you speak to my business group? And this business group was a bunch of CEOs that got together every month.
[00:27:52] Well, it was a very formal group called Y P O, Young President's Organization. There was another group called Vista. And he introduced me to these groups and then all of a sudden I started talking about hiring people. And I would tell him, give them an overview. I didn't call it performance based hiring at the time, but I would do this.
[00:28:07] And me and my two associates, we gave 400 presentations to business groups in the nineties. We'd walk out of those with search projects. One of 'em came in at the end of it and he said, What's the most important interview question of all time? I don't have time to be here, but I'm interviewing a candidate this afternoon.
[00:28:22] So this was the, but this is the essence of it. But as I and I, so now I'm gonna go to 1997 or 98, I maybe happy 98 or 99. I had just written the first edition of Higher With Your Head. It's now in the fourth edition. But I was asked to speak at a recruiter convention in New York City at the Javit Center. and it was 1800 people and I had never spoken. I had spoken to 20 or 30 people, was fine. Still get nervous that I got nervous at the time. This is 1800. I was really, really nervous. So I said, Oh, how am I gonna handle this? But I had this kind of a trick question, which was the same one of what's the most important interview question of all time.
[00:29:00] So I decided in front of this group of 1800, he said, I'm gonna do something a little bit weird. And what I did is, and I, somebody told me, said, Just ask the audience a question and that'll reduce your own nervousness. So I started open and said, I'm gonna ask everyone a question. I want you to think about the best thing you've ever done in your whole career.
[00:29:18] Cause during the course of my conversation, I'm gonna ask you to describe that to me. I'm gonna interview everybody in this room, 1800 people at the same time. I said, But take 30 seconds and think of what you want to talk about for 15 minutes. The thing, single biggest thing you've ever accomplished in your whole career.
[00:29:34] So then, so that kind of took the pressure off and people were laughing and I went off and pulled the chair up and I actually asked people and I just said, Okay, describe that major accomplishment. What was the biggest thing? How did you get the assign? How did you get assigned that project? Did you volunteer for?
[00:29:51] And if you did, why? And if you. Were assigned it. Why did someone assign it to you? Who was on the project team with you? What kind of skills did you use? How did you apply those skills? What did you learn? How did you learn those skills? Walk me through the biggest decision you made. Walk me through the biggest problem you had and I went through a whole litany of thing.
[00:30:07] Walk me through the environment. Who did you like best? Why did you like it? Why didn't you like it? Where'd you take the initiative? I went through this whole, and I call it the most important interview question of all time. You can actually look on LinkedIn. It's still there. It was my first post on LinkedIn.
[00:30:21] I think it has 1.4 million people have read it by now. But that was the question, And I asked it and I was sitting on, I mean, it was kinda weird because I was kind of nervous, but I sat up there and I, but I had the question already figured out. And I, I have what I call the magic card which has the question, and it has one about individual accomplishments and one about team accomplishments.
[00:30:39] And then I said, What if I ask that question for two or three times over period of five or 10 years, what would I learn about you? And I just asked people and I said, To learn about my growth and development, what I like, what I don't like, where I'm good at, where I'm growing, the size and scope of it. So what I do is, Dig deep into candidates accomplishments related to the performance objectives of the job.
[00:30:59] So for if I was gonna ask you, Lisa, Lisa, you know, you've gotta put a three year product roadmap together of the whole internet space and how this company can maximize its growth. What if you ever accomplished that's like that? And I would really spend 10 or 15 minutes doing it. Walk me through the teams you had, how'd you build and developed the.
[00:31:15] What was the biggest technical challenge I have? So I'd really focus on asking detailed questions about the performance objectives I took during the intake meeting. And it's almost a mirror image of that kind of accomplishment. So that's really the core of it is really digging deep. And I, that's the evidence that I try to gather.
[00:31:33] And I remember one CEO. Now was the CFO for a cost guy. This guy was very, very soft spoken. Everybody else in the company loved him. The CFO didn't like the guy 10 minute and this guy's totally incompetent. And I, when I talked to the CFO, I said, Do you realize that this person accomplished something very, very similar, equally as complicated as what you want?
[00:31:52] And you didn't even give him a chance cuz she was, you thought it was soft spoken. And yet that was the reason he was so successful. He worked with a UAW union, he worked with the IT people, he worked with the manufacturing people, He worked with the finance and accounting people, and you blew him away because he was soft spoken.
[00:32:09] lou-adler_recording-1_2022-08-23--t06-14-05pm--61157a395affa4006d0cfc64--lollyg: Right.
[00:32:09] lou-adler_recording-1_2022-08-23--t06-14-05pm--guest458235--lou-adler: interviewed him the next day and said, This guy's remarkable. And that again, that CFO began implementing this idea of knowing the job and really digging deep and getting evidence as this candidate can perform that job and that environment of equal, complex.
[00:32:23] lou-adler_recording-1_2022-08-23--t06-14-05pm--61157a395affa4006d0cfc64--lollyg: Yeah, well this, this gets at this whole idea of of of being, alert to potential. Biases and assumptions that we make about people and where, you know, emotions come into play. Like I remember, you know, one hiring manager was known to, to hire a lot of mini me, he would hire a lot of, you know, people in his own image and, you know, then struggle to, to accomplish certain things that he needed to accomplish.
[00:32:45] Cuz what he really needed was to, to build out skills that he did not have already on the team. so kudos for being.
[00:32:52] To help people
[00:32:53] see
[00:32:53] lou-adler_recording-1_2022-08-23--t06-14-05pm--guest458235--lou-adler: again, it was so, in my mind, it was selfish, Lisa. I wanted to make more placements
[00:32:58] and I had good people that I knew got blown out for stupid reasons like you just said. So just like this one couple weeks ago about communications. And I wasn't doing the recruiting, somebody else was doing it, but I knew that if I could define what good communication skills look like as opposed to some bias understanding of it, that would change his mind.
[00:33:17] And it did. I mean it, So it's the idea, but again, it was done selfishly of how can I make this system work better where people don't get excluded for stupid reasons? And it all started when you define the job, if you don't do that,
[00:33:29] you just set your stage for bias and. Incompetent in valid interviews.
[00:33:34] lou-adler_recording-1_2022-08-23--t06-14-05pm--61157a395affa4006d0cfc64--lollyg: Well, and it's funny, you know, I remember when I began my, I'm an executive coach as well, and when I began my coach education, you know, just really digging into the fact that, you know, language is so different for all of us and we make assumptions about what people mean and we are meaning making machines ourselves.
[00:33:48] So, you know, I might tell you I need somebody with amazing communication skills and you immediately go, Oh, well for me, communication skills means, you know, and this is director, they, that must mean they need to present, you know, be a good presenter, but I actually mean they need to report, you know, write really good thorough reports.
[00:34:04] And so it, it's all always bears, you know, going deeper. Right. And, and going below the surface and not
[00:34:11] lou-adler_recording-1_2022-08-23--t06-14-05pm--guest458235--lou-adler: I call it having to doing. So I would say, Lisa, what do you mean by good communication skills? How are you gonna make that judgment?
[00:34:16] lou-adler_recording-1_2022-08-23--t06-14-05pm--61157a395affa4006d0cfc64--lollyg: Yeah. And how would I know, how would I see on the job and be able to
[00:34:20] lou-adler_recording-1_2022-08-23--t06-14-05pm--guest458235--lou-adler: Right? And it's, yeah. And I think too many recruiters are afraid to ask those questions.
[00:34:26]
[00:34:26] now I think they're, if you're hiring someone recently, if you're hiring a 22 year old or 24 year old and a recruiter's 25, it's probably okay. But if recruiter's 25 and they have to hire a director or vp and they're dealing with a VP or a general manager, they get intimidated by that.
[00:34:42] And that's the problem. By my experience, I knew work. I mean, and they, people, my clients knew that I knew the job. My, this cfo, he knew that I knew cost accounting. and I did but I also conducted a very thorough interview. The guy with the plant knew that I had been through manufacturing plants, and I was very comfortable walking around and saying, Geez, why is that line laid out that way?
[00:35:02] Why is this pile of scrap sitting over here? So it's the idea of if you have some subject matter expertise in the job, you're more credible with the hiring manager and with the candidates. They trust you. And most recruiters don't have that level of trust with either. Decisions. All they'll do is they go between pushing paper back and forth.
[00:35:21] So that in my mind is a missing link. I think knowing the job and asking those questions helps bridge that gap. It's not the total thing, but it helps bridge the gap.
[00:35:32] lou-adler_recording-1_2022-08-23--t06-14-05pm--61157a395affa4006d0cfc64--lollyg: Yeah. So, so, you know, would you say that that's the biggest opportunity for talent leaders that, that are listening today? You know, when it comes to talent acquisition, is it, is it around That piece of the puzzle that you were just talking about, or is it more about the job descriptions?
[00:35:47] lou-adler_recording-1_2022-08-23--t06-14-05pm--guest458235--lou-adler: think what is understanding the job and taking what I call a performance based job description, because the other key is I think to get semi-finalists, you can't get referrals. You can't even qualify a person unless you know the job. A good candidate knows that a recruiter is competent or not by the quality of questions.
[00:36:05] Good candidates, if they're not looking, will say, Well, Lisa, tell me a little bit about the. It's this, this, and this. And they know within seconds if this recruiter is competent seconds. And then if you're not competent, they tune you off and then you get a referral. So if you're competent and ask good questions, and, but knowing the job is the core of that, everything else then kind of surrounds it to add to your skill set.
[00:36:25] It's just like any sales person, Let's just think about it. You're buying any product. A new refrigerator, new tv, something designed for your home. If that sales rep doesn't know the product and how it works, you don't give 'em a lot of credibility. They're just a hustler. So it doesn't matter. So it's just like, well, you're, you're selling, you're affecting a person's life.
[00:36:46] Number one, the candidate's life and the hiring manager's life. Truth of the matter is the candidate. It's has more at stake than the hiring manager. You're affecting this change. This candidate's gonna take this job for this reason. And if you don't know, You're affecting that life and that person and that family hiring managers, they'll hire somebody else.
[00:37:02] So I really always take the perspective of I am doing something more important for the candidate. My clients don't think that way. They think, Oh, I'm paying you the bill. I said, Too bad I'm affecting that person's life. But they also trust me cuz I really do my homework. I mean, that's the other part. I did my homework
[00:37:20] lou-adler_recording-1_2022-08-23--t06-14-05pm--61157a395affa4006d0cfc64--lollyg: I love that. Well, because, you know, I, so in, in, you know, my last few roles, my, my biggest passion is, it's really my area of practice was around employee experience. So the entire employee journey from how we attract talent in how we recruit, and, you know, how they move through that process and how they feel as a result of it, even if they are declined.
[00:37:40] I want them to be ambassadors for the company and feel they were well treated, respected, heard and had. You know, we're taking care of essentially, so, So this is what you make me think of. I mean, this is, this is an opportunity to help people. If they do get hired, start out on a high right. Really feeling understood, heard, and like this is a great fit.
[00:37:59] This is a great decision for me and my future.
[00:38:01] lou-adler_recording-1_2022-08-23--t06-14-05pm--guest458235--lou-adler: Well, I think part of it is you can't do that. With every single person who applies. That's why my idea is I spend more time with fewer people. But you gotta have, they have to have a remarkable experience. They have to be interviewed properly and professionally. They have to know that there's no bias. You cannot do that with, When hundreds and hundreds of people come in and you get a hundred people, only three or four of every hundred get interviewed, one of 1% at most get hired.
[00:38:26] So you got 95% that you gotta, So you water it down for the good before that you wanna do it, but you watered it down to the 96. I said, No, don't even talk to the 96, just talk to the, the four or the 20 to start. So it's really focus. On the semi-finalists, and it's just like no recruit, no salesperson talks to every potential client in the world.
[00:38:47] They talk, they pre-qualify everybody before they call 'em. Why? Talent leaders don't understand that fundamental principle. If you gotta know your product and you gotta pre-qualify your clients common sense,
[00:38:59] lou-adler_recording-1_2022-08-23--t06-14-05pm--61157a395affa4006d0cfc64--lollyg: Well, I think a lot do I, I think a lot do, and, and I think it is a, it is a, a learning edge, shall we say, for, for others. But I, you know, I think it's a really important point. So let's, you know, we've actually come to the, the end. I can't believe at the time always flies. I'd love to find out from you.
[00:39:15] You've got your book, Hire With Your Head. That's got several additions, which sounds like a great place to start. What are some other resources you might recommend for listeners?
[00:39:24] lou-adler_recording-1_2022-08-23--t06-14-05pm--guest458235--lou-adler: Well, if I had to say from a recruiter, I always suggest read First Break all the rules Gallup Group, which is, and for hiring managers. I also suggest Steve Covey's book Seven Habits of Highly Effective People, But from a recruiter standpoint is also book, I'm gonna call it Spin Selling. I think there's some other words for it.
[00:39:43] Spin Selling and the Challenger Sales Model where it's the idea of this is a solution. You got two very sophisticated buyers. You have to customize the solution. And traditional processes don't work. So you've gotta challenge people's thinking and you gotta be comfortable doing that. And I think but you gotta know what you're talking about.
[00:40:01] And I think, so it's, there's a lot of research, so it's becoming, so even when I became a recruiter, It was really learning sophisticated selling techniques. So I went to a lot of training. It wasn't recruiter training at time, cause that was in nine, early eighties. There was some, but it was really, I went to some pretty sophisticated sales training and then adopted those techniques for recruiting.
[00:40:21] I really kind of knew the work, so, and I stumbled upon it, but it was defining work as performance objectives rather than skills. That was, to me, it was real.
[00:40:29] lou-adler_recording-1_2022-08-23--t06-14-05pm--61157a395affa4006d0cfc64--lollyg: Yeah, there's a real, real connection with the marketing sales, kind of, you know, approach or a model. I agree with you. Yeah. Excellent. Well, thank you so much for your time today. I've thoroughly enjoyed the conversation and, and I appreciate you bringing your, your perspective and experience,
[00:40:44] lou-adler_recording-1_2022-08-23--t06-14-05pm--guest458235--lou-adler: And thank you very much for inviting me, Lisa.
