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[00:01:24] In this time of talent shortages and so-called quiet, quitting organizations are working to switch up their approaches to hiring and developing and retaining their people. That's why being inclusive in the design and offering of programs that support employees is so essential. When it comes to how you lead and how you design organizational programs.
[00:01:49] How do you ensure that you're addressing the needs of neurodivergent? And of highly sensitive people, perhaps you didn't realize you could or should be doing so. Well, no worries. You are in the right place. My guest is Claire Kumar. Claire is a productivity catalyst and highly sensitive executive coach who helps professionals achieve sustainable performance through improving productivity and wellbeing, while avoiding exhaustion and burnout.
[00:02:16] Claire's passion for what she does and her I guess you would say uncanny ability to come up with quotable sound bites really made this conversation a pleasure. I hope you love it. Welcome back to Talent Management Truths. Today I'm joined by Claire Kumar. Claire is a highly sensitive executive coach, and it's my pleasure to, to welcome her to the show. Welcome, Claire.
[00:02:41] clare-kumar_recording-1_2022-11-03--t04-12-46pm--guest448822--clare: Oh, good to be with you, Lisa.
[00:02:43] clare-kumar_recording-1_2022-11-03--t04-12-46pm--61157a395affa4006d0cfc64--lollyg: So let's kick off and it would be wonderful if you could share with our listeners a little bit about who you are, what you do in your background.
[00:02:52] clare-kumar_recording-1_2022-11-03--t04-12-46pm--guest448822--clare: Oh, thank you. So who I am highly sensitive. You mentioned that right off the top. So I mentioned that first because it's so much of who I am and how I show up in the world. More on that later, executive productivity coach. I speak and talk about really inclusivity and performance and the whole need to hold onto respect for humanity.
[00:03:16] in inviting that performance. My degree is biology. I spent 15 years in the corporate world and then there's a whole story around that, which we may or may not get into. But I left to do my, create my own business relates a lot to high sensitivity actually. And for 15 more, no more, I'm stopping counting now, I think more than 15 years.
[00:03:37] It used to be half and half, and I was cool with that. Now it's more I really work with organizations and leaders. Busy professionals on successful work-life integration, bringing teams back into the office, helping them perform, all of that big juicy conversation, which is really important right now.
[00:03:55] clare-kumar_recording-1_2022-11-03--t04-12-46pm--61157a395affa4006d0cfc64--lollyg: And didn't you do a bit of a stint as a professional organizer?
[00:03:59] clare-kumar_recording-1_2022-11-03--t04-12-46pm--guest448822--clare: Yeah. That was the, when I stepped into entrepreneurship my kids were three and five, and I was blessed to be living in Quebec at that time because we had highly subsidized daycare. So my son was older, so he was oh, he was, he was in daycare. My daughter was two and a half and I had. Incredible need to share.
[00:04:22] Her actually, when she was 19 months and didn't have a language, she had a lot of willfulness, but without words, and that was difficult. So I thought, okay, I wanna figure out, and this is very salient for anyone who's highly sensitive, some really value aligned work that also sets me up for a better quality of work in life.
[00:04:41] And so I started my organizing business. I also sort of knew there was something more for me. B2B or B2C rather than b2b, and I'd always
[00:04:52] been in the
[00:04:52] clare-kumar_recording-1_2022-11-03--t04-12-46pm--61157a395affa4006d0cfc64--lollyg: that's business. Business to to consumer directly or business to business.
[00:04:57] clare-kumar_recording-1_2022-11-03--t04-12-46pm--guest448822--clare: Exactly. So I wanted to think about the, the ultimate consumer, the end user of of things. And so I wanted to get back to my talents, what skills I had that I think could serve others, and just a more tangible. Do something, see the results kind of construct. So yeah, I, I did that for many years. I very rarely will actually see someone in person around organization.
[00:05:23] It I more now coach around productivity of which organization is a
[00:05:28] clare-kumar_recording-1_2022-11-03--t04-12-46pm--61157a395affa4006d0cfc64--lollyg: is part of it. Yes. It's such an interesting evolution and that's why I wanted to bring it up, right, because I think that so many of the listeners, you know, have had interesting career paths themselves and, and you know, I get, I get comments from people or notes about how much they appreciate hearing sort of the, the, the, the ups and downs and the twists and turns that people take.
[00:05:48] clare-kumar_recording-1_2022-11-03--t04-12-46pm--guest448822--clare: and I still, I still get booked in organizations to talk about organization Bec, it's one of those topics that, you know, if I was ever at a cocktail party and I wouldn't bring up what I did, but if it came up, oh my gosh, everyone had something to say and most people would say, oh, I need you in some area of life, whether it be work at or at home or at home.
[00:06:07] So still doing a lot of talking around that, but more as a subset of productivity Now.
[00:06:12] clare-kumar_recording-1_2022-11-03--t04-12-46pm--61157a395affa4006d0cfc64--lollyg: Yeah, and it's, it's so, it's so interesting cuz some people sort of naturally think better with a little bit of chaos around them. I'm not somebody who adores detail. It actually, I can do it very effectively, but I don't enjoy it. That said, because being organized helps me. Achieve results. I'm highly organized, you know what I mean?
[00:06:30] Like, it's, it's, it's fascinating. So people say you're so organized. Well, it, it's more something, you know, it's a learned thing. In order to have the results I want.
[00:06:40] clare-kumar_recording-1_2022-11-03--t04-12-46pm--guest448822--clare: You bet. It's a learned thing for me, I think it was part of my coping strategy to deal with my sensitivity. I feel better if there's structure. So I've put a bit of a model together actually, which is on one access. It's your per propensity to create order. And I've just discovered actually that there's a body of work for 50 years around this.
[00:07:00] It's Michael, I think it's Michael, his first name, Curtin, 50 years ago, developed this model, KA a i. It's the the KA I foundation. Anyway, I added another element to it though. So we have this propensity drive to create order. We also have in the other access. a tolerance for chaos or a sensitivity to that environment.
[00:07:21] And depending on what quad, which quadrant we're in, we have different motivations or drives to get to that place of order. Some people are like, don't bother me with order. I'm just going free flow and I don't want anything to do with that. And then there are other people who are like, oh, I can not only organize it, I can color code it, you know,
[00:07:39] So it's like there's
[00:07:41] clare-kumar_recording-1_2022-11-03--t04-12-46pm--61157a395affa4006d0cfc64--lollyg: the line of the color coding
[00:07:43] clare-kumar_recording-1_2022-11-03--t04-12-46pm--guest448822--clare: but I see the, I see the color behind you in your
[00:07:46] file. Uhhuh. . So I, I see you.
[00:07:49] clare-kumar_recording-1_2022-11-03--t04-12-46pm--61157a395affa4006d0cfc64--lollyg: Yeah, well, I just mean in files cuz my, I remember my, my my last executive assistant used to tease me because she'd say, oh, Lisa, you do these handwritten labels for all your file folders. Let me get out the brother Puch and, and make them for you in color coat. And I'm like, I just don't have time for that
[00:08:05] clare-kumar_recording-1_2022-11-03--t04-12-46pm--guest448822--clare: Mm-hmm.
[00:08:06] Hundred
[00:08:06] percent.
[00:08:07] clare-kumar_recording-1_2022-11-03--t04-12-46pm--61157a395affa4006d0cfc64--lollyg: I, have the folders, they're very organized, but I just, I, I didn't care enough to go the extra mile to make them beautiful
[00:08:14] clare-kumar_recording-1_2022-11-03--t04-12-46pm--guest448822--clare: Yes. I thought there has to always be an r o roi. When you're gonna put an effort into organizing something, the payback has to be there. So you've, you determined for you, and what the invitation for anyone listening to think about is what's your relationship to structure, whether it be in your space or your schedule.
[00:08:31] What's your relationship to your social connections, all of that. What's your relationship to the need for structure and the need for free flow? When we understand that we can better design lives to be really sat satisfying for us.
[00:08:44] clare-kumar_recording-1_2022-11-03--t04-12-46pm--61157a395affa4006d0cfc64--lollyg: Oh, I love that. What a great question. Okay. So , so that's something I'm gonna think about too. I really like that. I appreciate it. Okay, so, so organizing peace aside. Now you're really focused on inclusive and sustainable performance in organizations with individuals and a, a key part of what you do is as a highly sensitive person yourself, is supporting highly sensitive people, helping organizations support these folks.
[00:09:10] Can you tell us a little bit about what it is to be a highly sensitive.
[00:09:15] clare-kumar_recording-1_2022-11-03--t04-12-46pm--guest448822--clare: Sure, sure. I can. First of all, a little nod to anyone who wants to go real deep in this and go back to the beginnings of it. If you've gotta look at Dr. Elaine Aaron's work, she wrote a book called The Highly Sensitive Person back in 1996. I can show you, I'll just show for anybody who's gonna watch.
[00:09:31] I've gotta. Picture of it right here. That's the 25th anniversary edition, which came out last year. I like to give her all the credit in the world for discovering what is, or really articulating what is a trait. It's a temperament trait. It is part of NeuroD urgency. Although I'm still struggling because I see a lot of talk about neurodivergent brain.
[00:09:53] high sensitivities not mentioned. And I'm like, the subway doors are open. I'm coming in. There's yeah, there's, it, it's a way of being, which is atypical, which means that we're one in five people, not the four out of five people who are not sensitive to the degree that we are. And so that's the premise.
[00:10:12] It's, it's pretty evenly split across gender. It, it occurs in other species of animals and. . I'll give you a breakdown of what I call the seed model for high sensitivity, and seed stands for sensitivity to stimuli, empathy, emotional responsiveness, and depth of processing, so sensitivity to stimuli, empathy, emotional responsi.
[00:10:43] and depth of processing. And for each of those elements, there are amazing strengths and rich qualities to be found. But there are also the dark side of each of the, the expression of these traits. And I'm happy to break down that, that further or if anyone's interested in finding out if, oh my gosh, this could be me.
[00:11:04] I have put together a quiz which is really fast and hopefully fun to take. It's a light. Sort of opportunity to answer some questions to say, Hey, are you sensitive? You might you be one of these people.
[00:11:15] clare-kumar_recording-1_2022-11-03--t04-12-46pm--61157a395affa4006d0cfc64--lollyg: Yeah. And, and thanks for mentioning the quiz, cuz I, cuz I, I've done it myself and and you know, I, I, I turned out to be, Very highly sensitive. Now am I surprised about that? Yes and no because. , you know, I'm such a kind of achiever, results based person and so on. So I sort of think, well, I'm just gonna charge the, I, I, I, you know, I welcome change, I in initiate it and all that kind of stuff.
[00:11:41] Have, have dealt with anxiety in my life though. And you had said something to me when we were talking back in the summer about, you know, , think about what, you know, kind of feedback you might have gotten as a young kid, like from your mom and so on. And, and what does that mean to you now? And it's, it's true.
[00:11:56] Mom used to get kind of frustrated sometimes cuz she's, you're being too sensitive. And so would that you know, in their words. So, so I do encourage people to take the quiz because it can give you some interesting insight, maybe some surprising insight into, to what it means to be an Hs p. and, and, you know, sort of fodder for reflection around, okay, well how, how, what does that mean in terms of how I show up in the world?
[00:12:18] How, you know, how I want to take care of myself how I wanna structure my life accordingly.
[00:12:25] clare-kumar_recording-1_2022-11-03--t04-12-46pm--guest448822--clare: Well, and because the audience is so full of leaders as listeners here, it's also thinking about the one in five people or more potentially who are on your team and you wanna invite their best performance. So I really encourage everyone to take the quiz even just to learn a little bit. If you take the quiz, you'll get a downloadable sheet, which.
[00:12:45] Breaks down the seed model and tells you a little bit more, and also an invitation to join a community where we're exploring the topic of inclusivity and performance from the perspective of high sensitivity. So,
[00:12:57] clare-kumar_recording-1_2022-11-03--t04-12-46pm--61157a395affa4006d0cfc64--lollyg: Beautiful. Okay, so let's dig in a little bit to to that very question. So you know whether people are themselves, view themselves as highly sensitive. . Thinking about teams and the ecosystem of teams, what's important for leaders in general, not just talent management leaders, to consider when, when they do have those one in five folks on their team, how can they, how can they adjust meaningfully?
[00:13:24] clare-kumar_recording-1_2022-11-03--t04-12-46pm--guest448822--clare: Well, I, I think it's, if we understand the trait, for example, let's take the first one, sensitivity to stimuli. . So one of the ways I often describe a highly sensitive person is to use the picture of a mere cat. So you can imagine this long lean animal standing up, right and looking out on alert. There's a, there, there, there will be a me, a mere cat in the mob that is on sentinel duty, right?
[00:13:49] Smelling hearing, sensing, seeing. so that everyone else can kind of frolic around, feed, do whatever they need to do, but there's someone on alert. Well, that's the highly sensitive person. So I want you to think of taking that mi cat, putting them in an open concept office, right? And they're, you're not inviting them to, to take a break and have a nap and have lunch and, and then go frolic and come back to being on duty.
[00:14:15] That mead in your office is on duty all the time. . And so while we are incredible noticers and will and be really, you want people on your team that are highly sensitive because they will be the, Hey, did you recognize there was an energy shift in the room? And I'm not sure everybody was on board or in that, in that graphic design.
[00:14:37] No, there's a, there's a typo. There's like, there's something we don't wanna go out. They will notice everything at the same time. And taking all that information in the propensity to burnout. is much, much higher. So when you have a highly sensitive person that says, I need more time, I need more quiet space to work, I might need to do this work from home, or another quiet location, or I need a meeting room to book, or I need a rest space to actually really rest and restore and have quiet space, and maybe it doesn't need to be in a phone booth in the dark, maybe I don't wanna be, you know, I want rest, but I don't need to be feeling isolated. there's a lot to consider in offering all employees choice, but if we design for highly sensitive people, then we're gonna look after everybody. , there's, there's a real opportunity that, and maybe I can take just a second to expand. So, sensitivity in this temperament applies to about one in five people.
[00:15:36] But if we look at other neuro, neuro divergencies, like a D H D, autism, dyslexia Tourettes, there's a, a few disor known disorders. The group expands. If we add in anxiety as a mental health issue, the group expands. If we add in P t s.
[00:15:56] clare-kumar_recording-1_2022-11-03--t04-12-46pm--61157a395affa4006d0cfc64--lollyg: Hmm.
[00:15:57] clare-kumar_recording-1_2022-11-03--t04-12-46pm--guest448822--clare: And after our two and a half year pandemic, we are not the same people.
[00:16:02] There's a lot of stress and sensitivity that is in our teams now, and I think that's why we're seeing quiet quitting, and we're seeing reluctance to go back to the office and step into the construct of work and life as it was.
[00:16:16] clare-kumar_recording-1_2022-11-03--t04-12-46pm--61157a395affa4006d0cfc64--lollyg: So much stuff there to unwrap. So, one of the things that came up for me when you were talking about, you know, even just trying to figure out who on your team might be highly sensitive, it might be obvious, but sometimes maybe not, if you've never really thought about the concept or, you know, it's, it's like kind of a, a novel idea.
[00:16:34] It strikes me that these are the folks that operate at the higher level of listening. You're probably familiar with the levels of listening. So level one, listening to reply. So you're, you're, you know, coming up with your response as you're listening, so you're not really listening, so you're missing stuff.
[00:16:48] Level two, listening to understand. And then level three being that global listening, where you're picking up on what's not being said in terms of energy expression. Posture, you know, all of these different things that, so, so, such a huge strength on the one hand, and yet can also like as you said, be more closely aligned to, to falling into, into burnout, right.
[00:17:11] If
[00:17:11] clare-kumar_recording-1_2022-11-03--t04-12-46pm--guest448822--clare: Well, yeah. Yeah. And if I can touch on e emotional responsiveness for a second, that leads to, so we are quick to perceive emotions in our body, so highly, highly self-aware. However, if not rested, if hangry, if irritated, if, if
[00:17:31] clare-kumar_recording-1_2022-11-03--t04-12-46pm--61157a395affa4006d0cfc64--lollyg: Dreaded.
[00:17:32] clare-kumar_recording-1_2022-11-03--t04-12-46pm--guest448822--clare: Right If, if depleted in in some way, then we become the Will Smith that slaps Chris Rock because we cannot.
[00:17:40] Our emotional release in check. So really inviting this. This is why I talk about sustainable performance and I embed wellbeing in every aspect of productivity that I talk about. Now. We can't, we can't forget we're animals. And we are one kind of animal here with sensitivity that needs a little more care.
[00:18:03] It needs a little more invitation to regulate and self-regulate well, to recognize the trait to regulate for it. And then what the invitation, and I'm just, I've got the book outlined, done now for a book talking about this. Yeah. To to step into advocating. What can we influence. Around us that will invite richer contributions from more people.
[00:18:27] Because honestly, we've been designing to get the best from the most,
[00:18:30] clare-kumar_recording-1_2022-11-03--t04-12-46pm--61157a395affa4006d0cfc64--lollyg: Yes.
[00:18:31] clare-kumar_recording-1_2022-11-03--t04-12-46pm--guest448822--clare: but we've been sacrificing the most from some of the best minds. We've just seen them burn out, checkout, opt out, and. I'm like, that's not good enough. We know that there's such a need for talent now. We are seeing organizations in, in my podcast, I've interviewed TD Bank Group, for example, who has now a new hiring process for Neurodivergent Minds, right? We're starting to understand the value of the diversity that's there. We can't lose it in this invitation to return, to return to the office, return to normal, cuz normal wasn't good enough. We need to. the situation. Now we've got a gorgeous opportunity.
[00:19:10] clare-kumar_recording-1_2022-11-03--t04-12-46pm--61157a395affa4006d0cfc64--lollyg: Oh, I agree. And you know, this, this idea of of of rest, of recuperation, this is something that I talk a lot about on the, on the, the show and, and in my blogs and, and in my work with people, this concept of refueling. Cuz that was something, you know, in my 25 years in corporate in senior roles. We're talking a bit of a workaholic, really, and burnt out more than once.
[00:19:32] You know, not really understanding or respecting the need to refuel and, and, you know, seeing it as a luxury that I could not afford and did not have time for. And now what I see is the, you know, if I were to say I, I work with people of all. Different industries on the one one-to-one level. For instance, what everybody has in common is, is just that is not taking enough time to refuel and not noticing when they're depleted and being very intentional about filling their cup back up and, and doing it in ways that they may think are frivolous. Embrace the frivolous. For me, it's reading a decor magazine for, for goodness sakes, like honestly, cuz it gets me, gets my mind sort of sparking into this more creative space, right? That gives me
[00:20:24] clare-kumar_recording-1_2022-11-03--t04-12-46pm--guest448822--clare: Oh, we, we, we, one thing we don't celebrate in our culture is the need for mind wandering.
[00:20:30] clare-kumar_recording-1_2022-11-03--t04-12-46pm--61157a395affa4006d0cfc64--lollyg: Yes, it's true. It's,
[00:20:32] it's,
[00:20:32] clare-kumar_recording-1_2022-11-03--t04-12-46pm--guest448822--clare: it's, that's a thing. That's a thing we need to make time for, especially if we want a creative mind. You can't track that by mouse movement
[00:20:39] software, right.
[00:20:41] clare-kumar_recording-1_2022-11-03--t04-12-46pm--61157a395affa4006d0cfc64--lollyg: Oh, oh God. A me shutter. Well, you think about Ernest Hemingway, and I think I probably mentioned this before, but I'm so fascinated by his process cuz he would walk around as an expat in Paris 1920s, you know, hanging out with Fitzgerald and, and the lake. And he would go walking through Lak, I can't think of the name of it right now.
[00:20:59] Den Luxembourg. Okay. In
[00:21:00] clare-kumar_recording-1_2022-11-03--t04-12-46pm--guest448822--clare: Oh, we should call, call we. Yeah. My partner's from Luxembourg, so I always perk. Perk at the language.
[00:21:06] clare-kumar_recording-1_2022-11-03--t04-12-46pm--61157a395affa4006d0cfc64--lollyg: There you go. There you go. So he would walk through the, and, and, you know, with his hands behind his back apparently. and would just think he would just, he would just walk and he was working, he was creating, he was musing. It just didn't look like work.
[00:21:22] clare-kumar_recording-1_2022-11-03--t04-12-46pm--guest448822--clare: do you know Harold Taylor by any
[00:21:24] clare-kumar_recording-1_2022-11-03--t04-12-46pm--61157a395affa4006d0cfc64--lollyg: I don't.
[00:21:25] clare-kumar_recording-1_2022-11-03--t04-12-46pm--guest448822--clare: Okay. A fabulous gentleman interviewed him on both the podcasts, my current one and the one before 89 years old, productivity expert extraordinaire. Walks, walks every day as part of his creative process. His kids gave him AirPods. I had to listen to other things and he's like, ah, tried it.
[00:21:46] No Uhuh. That's processing time and he's a productivity expert. So I pay attention to anything Harold.
[00:21:53] clare-kumar_recording-1_2022-11-03--t04-12-46pm--61157a395affa4006d0cfc64--lollyg: Excellent. Yeah. Well, there you go. Right. It's this idea of refueling recuperation. Now, the other theme that you touched on here is, is you know, the. The work from home, we were all kind of forced to do that if you weren't already doing it. Some companies I've seen, they've, they've gotten rid of their corporate digs and everybody's working from home now and other companies you know, one, I have a friend that works out.
[00:22:14] They've mandated all five days, everybody in the office globally, and then other companies. Two, at minimum two days or minimum three in the office. Doesn't matter when. There's no necessarily need to, to plan or book a desk. Others, it's, you've gotta book the desk. And you've also got, you know, leaders, we want you to be intentional about if people are coming in, that they're coming in for a reason.
[00:22:37] It's not to sit on video calls all day, cause they could do that at home, but how are you? , you know, pulling people together to collaborate meaningfully and and leverage the fact that they're in person. So all these kinds of approaches, and ultimately what you were starting to, to get at, I think, is around the need for flexibility.
[00:22:56] clare-kumar_recording-1_2022-11-03--t04-12-46pm--guest448822--clare: is inclusivity.
[00:23:00] clare-kumar_recording-1_2022-11-03--t04-12-46pm--61157a395affa4006d0cfc64--lollyg: Hmm.
[00:23:00] clare-kumar_recording-1_2022-11-03--t04-12-46pm--guest448822--clare: If you don't have flexibility, you are not being inclusive. Bar, hands down, you are not being inclusive.
[00:23:05] clare-kumar_recording-1_2022-11-03--t04-12-46pm--61157a395affa4006d0cfc64--lollyg: Can you say a little bit more about
[00:23:07] clare-kumar_recording-1_2022-11-03--t04-12-46pm--guest448822--clare: Yeah. , and it comes not only from sensitivity being there, it comes from moms and caregiving. It comes from life happening. It becomes from the fact we're right now in cold and flu season, if that comes from the fact that there's a tornado or a weather event or a power outage or a flood in your home.
[00:23:25] Like we, we have to make room for life. And so hashtag flexibility is inclusivity. Hashtag autonomy is for. Okay. We're not parenting children here, right? They've, most of our employees, many of our employees have come through with degrees and we expect them to manage their life successfully. Can we not also expect them to manage their brain successfully and figure out what they need to be able to deliver what you're asking them and inviting them to contribute to be thoughtful, very, very thoughtful. The ask hashtag, acknowledge the ask. This is another thing I talk about because especially for ladies getting ready, getting out the door and showing up. is a bigger ask than for most men. Not all men, I get you. But acknowledge what the ask is. It's the commute, it's the childcare obligations drop off.
[00:24:20] It's the getting ready, it's the spend now on in an inflationary economy, on gas, it's potential. Gosh, if I didn't go in, I'd be doing a better thing for the environment than actually having to drive my car. So there's, there's also moral value clashes going on as well as the expense of time, energy, and attention.
[00:24:42] Like we have to manage a cup of tea, time, energy, and attention is super important to think about and for leaders to acknowledge the ask. So, flexibility is require. autonomy needs to be there and still we need to get work done and we need to achieve things and there is value in coming together. So what does that look like?
[00:25:02] I think it looks like really thought out, well designed meetings for people to come together that's task focused. I think equally it's around making sure there's time for human connection. because if we are not deliberate about designing it in, it's an afterthought and it will stay an afterthought. So some successful leaders I talk to really are like, oh, I think about collaboration and connection in every single interaction.
[00:25:30] It's just the way I approach everything. If it's an add-on, , actually ask yourself, how much time are you inviting sweet starts or soft landings to the beginning of your meeting so that you can connect as humans first? What, what are you doing to invite talking about other things, because a story about what happened on the basketball court last night might actually.
[00:25:51] Drive an idea for what needs to happen on a project tomorrow. So we need to, to think beyond that. I need to get these three things done and I'm just gonna stay in that little box here. I need to, I need to, I don't know where that voice came from. . We need to, we need to think more. We need to think a little more broadly and invite that exploratory, earn Ernest Hemingway experience into the world.
[00:26:12] The other thing too, connect. Was an issue before the pandemic. There are stats that show 61% of people were lonely pre pandemic, and then we stuck people
[00:26:24] clare-kumar_recording-1_2022-11-03--t04-12-46pm--61157a395affa4006d0cfc64--lollyg: created a ministry of loneliness.
[00:26:26] clare-kumar_recording-1_2022-11-03--t04-12-46pm--guest448822--clare: yeah, I mean the surgeon general. The 19th and 21st, surgeon General of Yek Murti in the US wrote a book called Together because in his 19th um, mustache in that role, he thought that was the most prevalent health.
[00:26:43] in the us so we need people to come back to the office for connection. I'll tell you the other thing, when I was giving workshops for tech companies in Toronto in 2019, I had young employees, some new to Canada saying, I don't know how to connect to my colleagues. They were in person. So do not think that just because you've said everybody needs to be in the office,
[00:27:05] the, connection is happening.
[00:27:07] It's much more, needs much more nurturing
[00:27:10] clare-kumar_recording-1_2022-11-03--t04-12-46pm--61157a395affa4006d0cfc64--lollyg: And facilitation. Facilitation. one of the things that occurred to me as you were saying that is, you know, There was a, a lack of, of connection and a need for greater connection before the pandemic. And then do you remember early on in the pandemic there was all sorts of new effort by teams?
[00:27:28] I had certain leaders that I was coaching and they were like, I've set it up. So we have a weekly happy hour at 5:00 PM on Thursday, and we come together and we let our hair down and we just sort of chit chat about people's lives and the challenges of, you know, homeschooling and all this kind of stuff.
[00:27:41] And it was great. And you know what happened? after a little while that just went away and I think things became even so, so like the pendulum swung a little bit, right? Recognizing the need, oh my God, now we're virtual. So it was sort of amplified. We, we, we've gotta connect. So people were trying to facilitate it more.
[00:27:57] And then that kind of, kind of, diluted over time and, and became non-existent. And now as you're saying, you know, pulling people back in, we can be too quick to move to business. And I still run into a lot of senior leaders. know, they, you know, they'll start out with really not buying the need to start on a human level shift into business and on a human level.
[00:28:19] That's for anybody who's ever been through achieving extraordinary customer relations training back in the day, that was a, a key thing, the human business model. And it's not a cursory thing. It's, it's not just. A fluffy way to start your email. It's actually demonstrating a desire to know people, to understand people to see them.
[00:28:39] clare-kumar_recording-1_2022-11-03--t04-12-46pm--guest448822--clare: well, I, I can't tell you how a misplaced, I think self-checkout is in the retail experience right
[00:28:46] clare-kumar_recording-1_2022-11-03--t04-12-46pm--61157a395affa4006d0cfc64--lollyg: Oh,
[00:28:47] clare-kumar_recording-1_2022-11-03--t04-12-46pm--guest448822--clare: It's, it's such a disaster. Because they're missing an opportunity for human connection in the brand experience. And any retailer out there now who is making that the forefront? Costco's doing it.
[00:29:01] Costco's doing it. They're, they've amped, amped up in the last few weeks. Have a great day. How are you like this? This is coming through several, several connections going through the store, and they're not. They're upping their service and human connection in a time where everyone else is making everybody check things out themselves and taking humanity out of it.
[00:29:22] It is such a misplay if we believe that social connection is important.
[00:29:28] clare-kumar_recording-1_2022-11-03--t04-12-46pm--61157a395affa4006d0cfc64--lollyg: I, I couldn't agree with you more, and there's just so many other problems with, actually Heather Mallek is, Very amusing writer in the Toronto Star. Very caustic, sarcastic, but she Few, few articles ago. She, she wrote something about, she goes, how did I become a part-time employee of Shoppers Drug Mart, or something like
[00:29:46] clare-kumar_recording-1_2022-11-03--t04-12-46pm--guest448822--clare: With, Yeah.
[00:29:46] No benefits, just, yeah.
[00:29:48] clare-kumar_recording-1_2022-11-03--t04-12-46pm--61157a395affa4006d0cfc64--lollyg: No benefits, but I'm doing the work. Yeah, it's, it's crazy. So, so if, if this is an issue with, you know, we need flexibility in terms of this return to office and h and, and whether it's return to office or just how we work together in the new reality, how do you go about convincing leaders are helping them see the way
[00:30:08] clare-kumar_recording-1_2022-11-03--t04-12-46pm--guest448822--clare: Yeah. You know, I think story, story is the most powerful way to do it. There has to be a con emotional connection to. Getting it. And I mean, I use this in my workshops a lot. I tell stories of working for a leader when my dad was ill. And he had just come out of remission in his fight for cancer.
[00:30:33] And I got the phone call at my desk, for example, and my leader came by and he saw me in tears
[00:30:39] clare-kumar_recording-1_2022-11-03--t04-12-46pm--61157a395affa4006d0cfc64--lollyg: right?
[00:30:40] clare-kumar_recording-1_2022-11-03--t04-12-46pm--guest448822--clare: he sat in my cubicle chair and said, Claire, when my dad died, I took three days. , you don't wanna let this ruin your career.
[00:30:48] I was 23. Okay. I was 23 years old and I just, I didn't know where to put that. I didn't, I didn't know where to put that
[00:30:58] clare-kumar_recording-1_2022-11-03--t04-12-46pm--61157a395affa4006d0cfc64--lollyg: In the garbage receptacle under your desk,
[00:31:00] clare-kumar_recording-1_2022-11-03--t04-12-46pm--guest448822--clare: Right. But this is like, huh. So there's no one I've told that story who didn't sort of gasp, but like that's what he said. Fast forward my managers changed. My dad was in I C U. And it was the last three weeks of his life and we, we knew it was dyer, but we were always hopeful, right? Until the end. And my manager then said, Claire, I was driving from Brampton.
[00:31:23] I worked out back in tech in the day in Brampton and driving to Toronto General Hospital every evening to go be with my dad. And at one point, my, that manager said, Claire, do what you need to do. Do what? Just let it, because when you're in that situation, You're amygdalas hijacked, you're not going to be able to work properly anyway until you figure, figure out what's, what's happening or may need to roll with it.
[00:31:47] So that's why empathy, when I talk about high sensitivity and empathy being there, you want this in your leaders. You, you want, this is such a core, beautiful trait, and we need this in leadership now. . But we have to think about how we show up in these moments. And it's, I a hashtag, nevermind the labels.
[00:32:07] It's not about disability. Inclusivity is not about disability. Inclusivity is about humanity and recognizing that human capacity is dynamic in everybody. Everybody's fallen and sprained their ankle or, or had some kind of personal injury. Well, guess what? Your capacity. was affected by that, and maybe you're one of those.
[00:32:32] Suck it up. I'm gonna go through it anyway. Maybe. does that, did you heal faster? Did you like what are, if we can start looking at ourselves as human animals, and this is more my biology degree finally makes sense, it's like we're human animals and we have to respect that. We have to respect our emotional way of being, our physical way of being.
[00:32:53] The fact we need social connection, the fact our temperaments are different, and the fact that life. In, in leadership workshops, I'll be giving all through the pandemic. I, I, I've talked a lot about expanding inclusivity to really, really be respecting humanity beyond what the government mandates we must respect.
[00:33:10] It's like open your, open your thinking and say, I'm gonna respect this human being in front of me and know that. , that person wants to make a rich contribution. Here's why. Because every time we're making a rich contribution, we're feeling good about ourselves, we're getting something back. The reciprocity in that is leading to that fulfilling life.
[00:33:30] So I think the gold is in figuring out, not work life integration, but life work integration, and figuring out how you can have someone be so effective at. They're, they're able to fulfill their life goals and they're not in competition right now because of blurred boundaries in the pandemic. We've had so much erosion.
[00:33:52] We've had Ontario government instill the right to disconnect. We also have the Ontario government now potentially bullying workers about and not, and we're removing the, the right to strike. So
[00:34:03] clare-kumar_recording-1_2022-11-03--t04-12-46pm--61157a395affa4006d0cfc64--lollyg: Oh, oh, there's so much, there's so much,
[00:34:05] clare-kumar_recording-1_2022-11-03--t04-12-46pm--guest448822--clare: so much,
[00:34:06] clare-kumar_recording-1_2022-11-03--t04-12-46pm--61157a395affa4006d0cfc64--lollyg: You know, part of what I appreciate about what you were talking about is, Like I see a lot of senior leaders in particular that will resist being flexible enough because they've got their own story and maybe their own experience, their own baggage that tells them that three days off to grieve is going to ruin your career or put or cite you back.
[00:34:23] And he may have been thinking he was giving you a gift. You know, it is what it is. So, but pe but people, all of us make assumptions at time about other people's situations and we project.
[00:34:33] clare-kumar_recording-1_2022-11-03--t04-12-46pm--guest448822--clare: Yeah.
[00:34:33] clare-kumar_recording-1_2022-11-03--t04-12-46pm--61157a395affa4006d0cfc64--lollyg: But with, with, with leaders, I think often what gets in their way about offering that level of flexibility is trust is trusting enough, trusting the person not to take advantage, right.
[00:34:45] And trusting themselves to be able to have a conversation if that does appear to be occurring down the road, you know, it's, it's sort of like, let's go as far as we can see right now, Claire's in front of me, she needs. a substantial amount of support and empathy and flexibility. And if down the road I'm sort of feeling like, oh, okay, you know, how are you doing?
[00:35:07] And you know, what's the plan to come back and I'm feeling like there's something else going on, then, then I need to be brave and speak up about that, you know, and trust myself that I'll have a reasonable adult to adult conversation.
[00:35:18] clare-kumar_recording-1_2022-11-03--t04-12-46pm--guest448822--clare: I think there's a couple of things at play. The trust piece is, is really.
[00:35:22] clare-kumar_recording-1_2022-11-03--t04-12-46pm--61157a395affa4006d0cfc64--lollyg: Yes,
[00:35:23] clare-kumar_recording-1_2022-11-03--t04-12-46pm--guest448822--clare: fear of losing control. And so it's like, oh, so then how do you mitigate that fear? Cuz that's on you, right? I'm like productive until proven unproductive. is, is is like innocent until proven guilty. Don't, don't assume that.
[00:35:38] And I see this in a lot of smaller entrepreneurial organizations where the leader says, and Elon might be in here, the way I work is the way you. The way, the way I, I work best this way, therefore, you should work
[00:35:50] clare-kumar_recording-1_2022-11-03--t04-12-46pm--61157a395affa4006d0cfc64--lollyg: you should and
[00:35:51] clare-kumar_recording-1_2022-11-03--t04-12-46pm--guest448822--clare: Right? Marissa Meyer, I want everybody in the, in the office at Yahoo. Excuse me.
[00:35:57] clare-kumar_recording-1_2022-11-03--t04-12-46pm--61157a395affa4006d0cfc64--lollyg: Yeah. Yeah.
[00:35:58] clare-kumar_recording-1_2022-11-03--t04-12-46pm--guest448822--clare: by complete dismissal of the inclusivity and rich talent, we've been able to invite to the table because of temperament, because of invisible disabilities because of childcare duties. You know, you talk about the five o'clock on a Thursday social thing. Well, how many people are pick dealing with small kids
[00:36:17] at five o'clock? And it's like,
[00:36:18] that's
[00:36:19] clare-kumar_recording-1_2022-11-03--t04-12-46pm--61157a395affa4006d0cfc64--lollyg: know. Yeah.
[00:36:20] clare-kumar_recording-1_2022-11-03--t04-12-46pm--guest448822--clare: So how do
[00:36:21] we think
[00:36:21] clare-kumar_recording-1_2022-11-03--t04-12-46pm--61157a395affa4006d0cfc64--lollyg: please everyone, but you can have a variety of different ways to, to include, you know, it's, it's like you can't sort of check checklist it like it's one and done.
[00:36:31] clare-kumar_recording-1_2022-11-03--t04-12-46pm--guest448822--clare: just, just to go a little further on that thought, there's that trust issue. There's also quest for convenience.
[00:36:38] clare-kumar_recording-1_2022-11-03--t04-12-46pm--61157a395affa4006d0cfc64--lollyg: Mm-hmm.
[00:36:39] clare-kumar_recording-1_2022-11-03--t04-12-46pm--guest448822--clare: So I think honestly, hybrid is harder, right? I worked in a hybrid environment in the nineties. Hello. In the early two thousands I worked, I led a team. I had a team member in Calgary.
[00:36:51] I was in Montreal. One person Will is in Lavell, one person was in Toronto. I had to figure this out without video conferencing people. This is not new.
[00:37:00] clare-kumar_recording-1_2022-11-03--t04-12-46pm--61157a395affa4006d0cfc64--lollyg: Yes,
[00:37:01] clare-kumar_recording-1_2022-11-03--t04-12-46pm--guest448822--clare: This is just more complex than what you were used to. And I remember in that day and time, this was in 2000, I was noticing that we didn't have enough connection yet.
[00:37:13] The first thing that was gonna be cut was the budget to bring people together. So leaders. Allow for people to work where they wanna work, and maybe you have a disor dis dispersed workforce and you're like shaking your head at all. This challenge around managing this anyway. But you need a budget to bring people together.
[00:37:30] I think Salesforce is doing this particularly well, thinking about bringing people together in beautiful spaces for rich connection. . That's how you build a team that's got each other's back. That's how you build people who go, oh, Lisa, I know you used to be a teacher and you did a French literature degree, and, and you know, I, I know these things about you cuz I've connected on a human level and therefore I have you back.
[00:37:52] Right? But if we don't budget for that and design that in, and we think that coming to the office every day to be on Zoom calls with other people or like I was my, my job before I left the corporate world in 2000 and. was 90% on the phone,
[00:38:08] clare-kumar_recording-1_2022-11-03--t04-12-46pm--61157a395affa4006d0cfc64--lollyg: Oh,
[00:38:09] clare-kumar_recording-1_2022-11-03--t04-12-46pm--guest448822--clare: 90% on the phone, and I was,
[00:38:11] clare-kumar_recording-1_2022-11-03--t04-12-46pm--61157a395affa4006d0cfc64--lollyg: same as me.
[00:38:12] clare-kumar_recording-1_2022-11-03--t04-12-46pm--guest448822--clare: I was mandated to be in the office a hundred percent of my time.
[00:38:16] I, and I had proven already in the same or sister company that I could work. I've worked from home successfully for years. Leadership preference, quest for convenience. Lazy, lazy leader.
[00:38:30] clare-kumar_recording-1_2022-11-03--t04-12-46pm--61157a395affa4006d0cfc64--lollyg: Yeah. It, it's, it is tough that quest for convenience and, and, and that, you know, in this hustle, there's a real hustle side to our culture you know, corporate culture and so on. You know, I, I keep thinking about, just to go back to what you were saying earlier about. You know, your dad being in I C U I, I lost my dad in 2020 and he spent his last days in in ICU as well.
[00:38:51] And, you know, I'm self-employed and I have my own business, so I, I was able to step back and take care of him during that summer. I was full-time caregiver, but also when he died to take two months off, that's what it took
[00:39:04] clare-kumar_recording-1_2022-11-03--t04-12-46pm--guest448822--clare: Not three days,
[00:39:05] clare-kumar_recording-1_2022-11-03--t04-12-46pm--61157a395affa4006d0cfc64--lollyg: I still
[00:39:05] clare-kumar_recording-1_2022-11-03--t04-12-46pm--guest448822--clare: three days.
[00:39:07] clare-kumar_recording-1_2022-11-03--t04-12-46pm--61157a395affa4006d0cfc64--lollyg: I, I had, I still had a, a, a few coaching clients, but I did nothing else new.
[00:39:12] It was all I could do, just, just to, I don't even remember it to be honest. I was managing the estate and he lived with me. So, you know, moving dealing with all of the stuff and, but you think about, that's kind of like a grieving. Linked to mental health and then your point about if you break an ankle, I've seen people try to push through healing of, of a broken bone only to break it again or to exacerbate the injury so that it spreads and so on, and it takes longer.
[00:39:40] You know, when my mom died years earlier, I tried to push through and, and so the grieving process took much longer and it was more unpredictable cuz I didn't. Give myself time to actively grieve. Right. And so, I I just, I just wanted to return to that because I think that kind of story for leaders listening is the way to influence your stakeholders, right?
[00:40:02] Is, is to help people connect with their own humanity and their own needs and what it can do for not only them, the team, but the whole organiz.
[00:40:12] clare-kumar_recording-1_2022-11-03--t04-12-46pm--guest448822--clare: Yeah. In, in my leadership workshops, I referred to some McKenzie work that came out early in the pandemic, and you'll like this. I, I turned, took the acronym avek, because you need to carry these items with you awareness. , vulnerability, empathy, and compassion. So instead of cave, I don't like that. So You know, you need to carry these ways of being with you.
[00:40:34] And if you're a, as a leader, can have a story or connect to your own vulnerability and have a way to share that with your people, they'll be also able to express their own. I have a beautiful client that I coached some time ago who had a family member in an absolute medical disaster. Couldn't, couldn't share that his family was in some distress and he, he might need a little support from the team.
[00:41:01] Couldn't voice it. Just stuck here. Couldn't, couldn't get it out. If we really are gonna have each other's backs, then wanna have a supportive culture. We have to, we have to be able to make room,
[00:41:15] clare-kumar_recording-1_2022-11-03--t04-12-46pm--61157a395affa4006d0cfc64--lollyg: And
[00:41:15] clare-kumar_recording-1_2022-11-03--t04-12-46pm--guest448822--clare: time.
[00:41:16] clare-kumar_recording-1_2022-11-03--t04-12-46pm--61157a395affa4006d0cfc64--lollyg: safety we keep hearing about. Yeah.
[00:41:18] clare-kumar_recording-1_2022-11-03--t04-12-46pm--guest448822--clare: and it takes patience. It takes time. It's gonna take time away from a task that you thought you were gonna get done.
[00:41:23] So are we planning productivity tip? Are we planning to 85% of what we think we can do to allow for both emergencies and beautiful opportunities? Are we planning to 115 and trying to cram it in a hundred percent?
[00:41:37] clare-kumar_recording-1_2022-11-03--t04-12-46pm--61157a395affa4006d0cfc64--lollyg: right? Yeah. Excellent point. Okay, so the, we could just go on for hours. I'm thinking we are running outta time, so I, I'd love to, to wrap with, with you know, another question that's really specific for the audience, which is, is mostly talent leaders. So in the HR organizational effectiveness, people, employee experience space.
[00:41:56] So how can these. Talented talent leaders that are listening best support highly sensitive people in, in the programming that they provide in, in the learning and development ecosystem, people, programs. What are your thoughts?
[00:42:13] clare-kumar_recording-1_2022-11-03--t04-12-46pm--guest448822--clare: I'm gonna leave you with a a little model I put together, and this was after doing research into invisible disability actually in the us And how do we get at supporting someone when we've got privacy concerns? We, we, we don't wanna be probing. We, we have to be kind of sensitive. And it was, it was to ask people, what do you need to succeed?
[00:42:33] What do you need to succeed? Because for everybody who's highly sensitive or otherwise, c. It's going to look very, very, very different. I then took ask and broke it down further, and there's three points. Number one is I want you to acknowledge the situation. Acknowledge the challenge. Acknowledge there might be a barrier.
[00:42:55] Anticipate a solution, right? Anticipate a solution to the barrier you're thinking. Is there S is for suggest. A chest suggests the solution that you know of already. So maybe, maybe somebody is always coming in late. There could be a whole lot of things behind that. , right? But asking, you know, what do you need to succeed?
[00:43:19] Oh my gosh, I have to drop two kids off and their daycares are having problems. We couldn't get them in the same place. And now my partner has to also go early, ask what's, you know, what's going on? And K is commit to knowing your people better, knowing your people and building that time in for connection is going to help with that.
[00:43:38] So, anticipate, suggest. And. Will be three things that can apply to anybody, whether it's sensitivity, invisible challenges, visible challenges, and the life happens. Stuff that keeps popping up that, you know, there's, there's an article in H B R talking about the fact that adults are very, very reticent to raise issues at work, especially in the neurodivergent community, especially with invisible illnesses.
[00:44:06] For seven years, I did not disclose, and I rarely bring it. That I have an autoimmune disease. I have ms. And I very, very, very rarely talked about it because I was afraid no one would hire me. I have so much to add, so much to add. And the fear of disclosure is massive. How can we help people if we can't talk about and if we can't accommodate, we have to have that compassion and empathy at the forefront.
[00:44:36] And then, , really we can encourage and invite the best performance. Like that second manager, did you know who did I wanna work harder for? The guy that said, you know, don't ruin your career. Or the person that said, take what time you need. We're here and we know you're coming back. You know?
[00:44:53] clare-kumar_recording-1_2022-11-03--t04-12-46pm--61157a395affa4006d0cfc64--lollyg: Yeah, it's huge. And I really, you know, I, I wanna acknowledge you sharing that piece around, around ms because it, I think that is a very common response for many people. I have lupus. So, so I, I relate a little bit and, and I have not always been forthcoming about that because I didn't ever want it to be perceived as, as an excuse.
[00:45:11] And, you know, it's been in remission for a long time, but it is something that goes through your head, right? And, and that you may be seen as lesser than or less capable of. So just imagine like, How many folks out there are dealing, like, we've all got something. It seems, you know, like
[00:45:24] clare-kumar_recording-1_2022-11-03--t04-12-46pm--guest448822--clare: Oh yeah.
[00:45:26] clare-kumar_recording-1_2022-11-03--t04-12-46pm--61157a395affa4006d0cfc64--lollyg: And so, so back to your earlier point, Claire, about inclusivity is flexibility and if we, if we design for HSPs, but for, for, for the people with those more invisible needs, if you will, then we're taking care of everybody.
[00:45:42] clare-kumar_recording-1_2022-11-03--t04-12-46pm--guest448822--clare: Yeah. We need inclusive design, universal design, inclusive
[00:45:46] clare-kumar_recording-1_2022-11-03--t04-12-46pm--61157a395affa4006d0cfc64--lollyg: Universal design. Yeah.
[00:45:48] clare-kumar_recording-1_2022-11-03--t04-12-46pm--guest448822--clare: as a thought process for the way we operate, and then we won't be marginalizing people inviting them to leave. I left the corporate world because I couldn't handle the commute daycare in one direction, a commute downtown and the other.
[00:46:01] I couldn't sustain it four days a week for a job that was 90% on the phone. For a company that sold the equipment to enable you to work from home, ah, stick a fork in my eye. Right. It was right. It just, I'm like, and it, it's interesting because I followed up with my. My boss's boss afterwards. I have so much respect for her, and I said, what was going on there?
[00:46:26] Because I was good at what I was doing. The person I was working for didn't have any kids, didn't understand my reality, said What was it? She said, oh, we wanted, we wanted people in for their mentorship.
[00:46:37] clare-kumar_recording-1_2022-11-03--t04-12-46pm--61157a395affa4006d0cfc64--lollyg: Hmm.
[00:46:38] there was no connection. There was no culture of connection. If you're not finding people naturally connect.
[00:46:45] clare-kumar_recording-1_2022-11-03--t04-12-46pm--guest448822--clare: what are you doing? Like you said your word. To facilitate it, you have to. You have to. It's not gonna happen because the tasks are there. You're getting paid to do the task. This connection piece is a leadership responsibility. Yeah.
[00:46:58] clare-kumar_recording-1_2022-11-03--t04-12-46pm--61157a395affa4006d0cfc64--lollyg: couldn't agree more. Well, what a rich conversation. So, so many nuggets of golden and I just really appreciate you and you coming on the show and sharing your wisdom with us and, and your insights cuz I know that it's gonna be very valuable for my listeners. So thank you.
[00:47:13] clare-kumar_recording-1_2022-11-03--t04-12-46pm--guest448822--clare: My great pleasure.
