[00:00:00] what's on your plate to accomplish this year? Is it exciting or maybe a bit daunting? Could you use some support figuring it all out and talking it through? Maybe you could use some ideas and some proven tactics to try out and a supportive community of smart like-minded professionals. Great news. My new community-based program exclusively for talent management.
[00:01:11] Is now open for enrollment. The Talent Trust combines powerful peer-based learning and private coaching to help you get more inspiration, more influence, and more impact, so that you can implement and sustain your initiatives with ease and confidence. Check out the talent trust.ca for details and to book a call to discuss if this program is right for you.
[00:01:32] Once again, that's the talent trust.ca. See you there. What do business stakeholders really want from HR and talent, and what do they not want? So much of the work I do with my talent leader clients is to help them figure out how to build or improve stakeholder relationships. In this second year of the show, I'm expanding my guest list to include some amazing leaders from other areas of business leaders, from operations, sales, marketing, communications.
[00:02:06] It. And more tune into this episode for a hefty dose of practical inspiration for how you and your team can elevate your stakeholder relat. My guest is Shannon Hamilton. Shannon is Vice President of Sales for Blackberry Radar, overseeing the company's strategic growth and adoption, and she boast nearly three decades of experience in supply chain operations and sales.
[00:02:30] Full disclosure, Shannon is one of my best friends and has been for over 25 years since we first worked together on the same management. Not only is she my friend, but I admire this woman on a professional level like you wouldn't believe. She is really one of the most authentic and brilliant leaders I have ever met.
[00:02:48] Enjoy. Hello and welcome back to Talent Management Truths. I'm your host, Lisa Mitchell, and today I'm joined by one of my nearest end dearest friends and former work colleague Shannon Hamilton. Shannon is Vice President of Sales at Blackberry Berry radar, and she joins me today to bring a bit of a new perspective to the show, which is that of an operations and sales leader perspective, a stakeholder perspective.
[00:03:18] shannon-hamilton_recording-1_2023-01-24--t08-21-11pm--61157a395affa4006d0cfc64--lollyg: Welcome to the show, Shannon.
[00:03:19] shannon-hamilton_recording-1_2023-01-24--t08-21-11pm--guest691922--shannon-hamilton: Thank you, Lisa. It's great to be here.
[00:03:22] shannon-hamilton_recording-1_2023-01-24--t08-21-11pm--61157a395affa4006d0cfc64--lollyg: Awesome. So let's get started. I, you know, I always like to begin by having my guests share a little with the listeners about who they are, what they do, and, and your journey, how you got to, to this place.
[00:03:32] shannon-hamilton_recording-1_2023-01-24--t08-21-11pm--guest691922--shannon-hamilton: Absolutely. I like to think of my background and how I got to where I am today as a little bit unique. actually started my career in operations, so, I think back in the days when you and I had the opportunity to work together really. You know, solving some of the day-to-day challenges from a back office standpoint and customer service standpoint.
[00:03:53] Really great opportunity to learn kind of the ins and outs of how businesses run. And did that function in a, a number of different organizations? American Express spent almost 13 years there. But I had a. One point to actually based on a lot of the support that I was providing to our commercial card business while I was at American Express at the time, asked me if I could kind of take all of the great learnings and leadership that I had developed up to that point and make the transition to sales.
[00:04:22] And I remember that as clear as day because I had never seen myself as a salesperson. It was sort of this very used car salesman type of scary moment where I wasn't really sure that I was gonna be comfortable doing sales. But I knew, I knew the business really well and I was very passionate about the service and the product that we were providing.
[00:04:42] And I trusted that leader Incredib. So I made that transition and one of my key learnings there was, you know, having not carried the quote unquote bag as a salesperson prior to moving into sales in a leadership capacity, I really needed to earn my stripes. By getting very hands on, jumping on sales calls, getting out into the field with my team.
[00:05:06] And I must say I, I think at this point now I've spent about equally the same amount of time in sales as I did in, in customer success and operations. And the sales transition, the move has been one of the best decisions that I've ever made. I really enjoy building sales teams. I currently lead.
[00:05:24] Blackberry Radar as you've mentioned. We are a distinct unit within Blackberry, focused on transportation, logistics, and supply chain, which has been a really interesting place to be during and coming out of the pandemic. But I quite enjoy the opportunity to. Help companies solve problems, and at the end of the day, sales is about, you know, understanding what your customers need and, and giving them relevant solutions.
[00:05:49] And I get the pleasure of doing that and, and building teams to support it.
[00:05:53] shannon-hamilton_recording-1_2023-01-24--t08-21-11pm--61157a395affa4006d0cfc64--lollyg: So thank you for that, that background because there's, you know, I still remember you and I having lunch at the shops of, of Don Mills, I think it was, you know, we would meet up there and you telling me about this opportunity, this leader having approached you and you were really mulling it over and I was mulling my own.
[00:06:10] Kind of career shift. I'd had an offer come through at the time and was, and I just remember it so, so clearly. So I'm glad you made that move cuz clearly it suits you. The other thing too that, that jumped out at me that resonated was when you said you were worried about, oh my God, is it like a used car salesman?
[00:06:25] Is it kind of icky, this, you know, sales thing? And I'd always been encouraged to go into sales two and resisted. and that was when I was in wealth management. I just couldn't see myself asking people to part with their hard-earned money for investments. That said, fast forward and I'm running my own business and I'm in sales.
[00:06:43] You know, what I've learned is that you have to really believe in what you offer and the value you bring, and then it doesn't feel like, you know, you're a snake oil salesman. You're, you know, you're simply offering value, not. somebody, something they don't need. Which is really, really important. And in the end, I think, Just for the audience, for the people listening is that everybody's a salesperson, right?
[00:07:06] Ultimately we are. We are. There's, there's an we need to be able to clearly speak to the value in order to be able to influence, in order to make progress and so on. So I think we, we, we all have a bit of sales in us and need it to be successful. Any comments on that from your viewpoint?
[00:07:23] shannon-hamilton_recording-1_2023-01-24--t08-21-11pm--guest691922--shannon-hamilton: Absolutely. I think we're always selling, whether we're internally selling to stakeholders that we're working with you know, again, small organizations, big organizations, you need to be able to convey you know, a compelling value proposition. Have conviction. I always say be fiercely curious. You know, ask questions to understand.
[00:07:43] These are all good sales. You know, skills that, that you learn. But the people that can do it sincerely and have passion behind it, I think just obviously in my opinion, come across as those top performers and, and tend to deliver, you know, some exceptional results. But we all do it and, and it's a, it's a good skill to, to learn early on.
[00:08:03] shannon-hamilton_recording-1_2023-01-24--t08-21-11pm--61157a395affa4006d0cfc64--lollyg: Yeah. Yeah. I think we have to reframe it from, you know, it's something that's kind of slimy and, and you know, un uncomfortable into Oh, it's, it's, it's a valuable thing, right? To help people understand what you're bringing to the table. Which brings me to my next question. So in a lot of the work that I do, so I, I work one-on-one, as you know, with talent leaders as their thought partner.
[00:08:25] So this is folks in l and d or od or employee experience, people, hr, I work with them both one-on-one and in group programs. And something that comes up a lot is this desire, some people have it, but a lot of people want more of it. If they do have a little bit, they wanna have more airtime with the business.
[00:08:43] Which makes me crazy cuz I think, I think, you know, pe the business of people is really, there's people operations, right? It's a, it's a fundamental part of the business, but we tend to say, oh, there's HR when you're in it, and then there's the business. And so, you know, my clients are often thinking about like, how do I earn the right to be at that table and how do I increase my influence and how do I , you know, start, how can I be more effective in helping these folks
[00:09:10] So this is where getting some of your insight and and examples from, from your, your long career will be helpful. So when you think about the best collaboration you've ever experienced with an HR slash talent management function, what was that? And could you tell us?
[00:09:30] shannon-hamilton_recording-1_2023-01-24--t08-21-11pm--guest691922--shannon-hamilton: So I'm thinking about a couple of examples. Collaboration is really important. And I think I probably didn't touch on this enough in, in my introduction, but. You know, I've worked for larger organizations like American Express and Intuit, and then decided to transition into some earlier stage startups.
[00:09:48] So I wanted to take all of the, the skills and the structure and the learnings around what it means to, to operate in a, in a bigger structure organization and help a company in multiple companies have done this now, really grow in scale. And I think some of the things that I've learned and have, have.
[00:10:06] Maybe the best opportunities here for me to share an example would be, you know, in my experience with a, a startup where we didn't have a large scale HR team as the sales leader coming into the Company, I was told very clearly that we had a, a real challenge in, in growing the sales organization.
[00:10:26] So from a people standpoint having the right people in the right place at the right time was crucial in order to be really doubling the size of our business every year. So it was aggressive, aggressive growth. But yet we were churning a hundred percent of our sales team on an annual basis. So, as you can imagine, Yeah, so there were about 70 people, 70 people on the sales team.
[00:10:48] This is the, the, the, you know, recipe for insanity is you're doing the same thing over and over again and, and expecting different results. And, you know, we had a very good brand and recognition in the Toronto space as one of the fastest growing startups. So we had all of that going for us. We had the catered lunches, the bureau clocks on Friday.
[00:11:05] We had all the things that were, you know, fun and exciting, but yet we couldn't keep people and. My HR business partner at the time, you know, was spending a lot of resources both internally and externally, and just helping me from a, a talent acquisition standpoint, making sure that we had the right pipeline of candidates coming through.
[00:11:24] But employee experience and attrition were still an an issue and we definitely had some culture challenges as well. So you can imagine that this, this person that I was collaborating with we were having to tackle a lot of different elements of our business together and it required me to kind of flex a little bit into the HR space to say, okay you know, I'm really keen, I've had a lot of great exposure to employee engagement initiatives.
[00:11:51] let's work on these things together. What are some of the things that we can do, whether it's, you know, standups, town halls employee surveys, how are we getting feedback and actioning that feedback? Really kind of leveraging some of that structure that I had benefited from in, in some of the other organizations and bring that forward and.
[00:12:09] You know, one of the, the realities was we were losing talent because, you know, we were hiring people three to five years outta school who still had a lot of interest in, in traveling teaching English in, in other countries around the world. And so from our exit surveys or exit interview surveys, we were finding out that sabbatical and time off was really important to individuals.
[00:12:32] And so my HR business partner was really supportive in, in working with me on how. Sell, the return on investment that it would take in order to help the broader organization realize that if we could stem some of this massive attrition that we were having and, and, you know, these folks were our top performers.
[00:12:51] They were the ones that, you know, we really wanted to keep within the organization. But if we could build a training and development program specifically focused on scale sales people aren't coming out of college and university with training programs and skills related to sales. It's often something people have fallen into and having a curriculum with an end goal being a paid sabbatical Would be a benefit.
[00:13:15] It's an investment, but a benefit. And that opportunity to collaborate on both the curriculum and understanding of the type of people we were hiring and how we were gonna get them to stay, you know, working together on that was, you know, probably one of the, the key successes that I could say I've looked back on and, and feel really good about.
[00:13:33] shannon-hamilton_recording-1_2023-01-24--t08-21-11pm--61157a395affa4006d0cfc64--lollyg: I'm, I'm sure for the, that HR business partner, it's, it would be the same too because I mean, talk about turning tradition on its head and, and paving new paths. This is very innovative. Now granted a startup organization, so maybe more open to that, a little bit more agile, ready to embrace something that's not been done before.
[00:13:51] And I believe this when you were telling me earlier, before we. Recording. It was a two year curriculum. Right.
[00:13:57] shannon-hamilton_recording-1_2023-01-24--t08-21-11pm--guest691922--shannon-hamilton: It was a two year curriculum and we were selling to higher ed.
[00:14:02] shannon-hamilton_recording-1_2023-01-24--t08-21-11pm--61157a395affa4006d0cfc64--lollyg: yes. Selling to higher ed. So the sales curriculum was two, two years. So it sounds like, what do you mean you gave paid time off? But if you think about the cost of a hundred percent churn with a staff that size, and you need people to stick it out for the two years and keep growing and learning, you know, I think you could make the numbers work.
[00:14:24] It's really interesting.
[00:14:25] shannon-part-2-hamilton_recording-1_2023-01-25--t06-34-54pm--61157a395affa4006d0cfc64--lollyg: so, so with this program at Top Hat that you, you know, such a beautiful collaboration with hr, how did it play out?
[00:14:33] shannon-part-2-hamilton_recording-1_2023-01-25--t06-34-54pm--guest691922--shannon-hamilton: Yeah, great question. So there were a number of initiatives that I was working on to really combat the overall attrition that we had. But I will say that, you know, looking at things like our compensation plan The timing of our commissions relative to our goals and expectations, in addition to the sabbatical that we offered at the end of this two year program improved our attrition by 50%.
[00:14:57] So it was significant. We, you know, definitely still had work to do. But I, I would say, you know, there's never one thing that is driving that level of attrition. You know, there were culture elements, employee engagement. So it was nice to be able to, to know that, you know, looking at the issue in totality, we were able to to, you know, break down and come up with a few initiatives that had real impact and, and lasting impact with the team.
[00:15:24] shannon-part-2-hamilton_recording-1_2023-01-25--t06-34-54pm--61157a395affa4006d0cfc64--lollyg: Okay. Yeah, that's impressive. 50% reduction. And, and I hear you. I mean, it was just the, the beginning. There's so many environmental factors. That's why I can feel overwhelming sometimes, right. To tackle these things. But congratulations. That's quite a success story. So, so let's sort of dig into, you know, knowing that the, the listeners are really people, you know, leading in the, a HR OD learning space.
[00:15:45] Wh when you think about leaders in those areas that you've valued over the years that you've enjoyed working with h what was it about their approach or, you know, not necessarily what they did, but their approach that that stood out for you as a business?
[00:16:02] shannon-part-2-hamilton_recording-1_2023-01-25--t06-34-54pm--guest691922--shannon-hamilton: Yeah, I think we're. Coming up with a similar theme here, and, and it's really collaboration. I, I'm somebody that I don't want to work in isolation. I like to ideate and really have my, my partners kind of understand what are the goals that I'm trying to drive. I, I also thought about times when I was at American Express and we needed to make some big changes.
[00:16:24] With regards to inside sales and outside sales and territory and, and really kind of push the boundaries on some change management initiatives that we're gonna have impacted people, impact goals, but also drive our overall business success And, . I, I like to be able to step back and give context and explain sort of where I'm coming from, and then have a partner who's really gonna work with me on saying, okay, what can we do?
[00:16:48] What's possible? How do we break this down into chunks? And kind of work on that together? Versus me just coming with a list of saying, I need X, Y, and z. Because there may be things that I'm not considering. So really having that partnership to be able to work through what's the end in mind, what am I trying to accomplish from a business strategy standpoint?
[00:17:09] And then how can my HR business partner. Kind of work with me to break that down into chunks and, you know, keep me honest too, because sometimes, you know, the pace of change that I wanna operate under as an example, and especially being in sales and thinking about some of the startup environments that I've been in, we need to move fast.
[00:17:28] And so being a bit of a balancing component to, to the, to the reality of how quickly we can go from a people standpoint is, is important to, to have.
[00:17:38] shannon-part-2-hamilton_recording-1_2023-01-25--t06-34-54pm--61157a395affa4006d0cfc64--lollyg: Oh, I'm so glad you brought that up because it, because you know, ha, having. You know, run business functions like outside of HR as well as hr. Like I completely relate to that, this need for speed. And yet having been certainly, you know, well both on the HR side and the l and d side, you, you know, you feel that urgency from your clients and you wanna meet it.
[00:17:59] And yet often the, there's, there are very real parameters and limitations, right? And, and, and often it's just the, the leaders don't know what they don't know. So I think. , you know, it's important not to sort of shut down and help say, okay, well let's walk around this cuz what's really involved to implement this involve, da da da da.
[00:18:16] Right? And spell it out. So what I'm hearing from you, I'm just gonna recap so you know, you value collaboration, a chance to ideate with this partner, to get them to help you push your boundaries and look at, you know, change management. It really sounds like helping you think through what you need and get that clarity and then not breaking down into chunk.
[00:18:37] shannon-part-2-hamilton_recording-1_2023-01-25--t06-34-54pm--guest691922--shannon-hamilton: Absolutely. And you know, being in bigger organizations and I'm thinking about, you know, the last six months since I've joined Blackberry, it's, it's also helping me not reinvent the wheel. Like I have, you know, challenges within my team from a change management culture development standpoint. And I know that there's gonna be resources that I can tap into and I could spend a lot of time trying to create it myself.
[00:19:00] But I'm looking to them to help navigate the bigger organization so that I can move a little bit quicker, but take advantage of, you know, tools and resources that are already internal as well. So, absolutely.
[00:19:12] shannon-part-2-hamilton_recording-1_2023-01-25--t06-34-54pm--61157a395affa4006d0cfc64--lollyg: Yeah. Well, and as a, as a newer leader to Blackberry, as you say, you know, within six months, I mean, it's really leveraging their knowledge capital, what they already have and their relationship capital, what they already know, right? Assuming that they've been there longer than you. So, so helping you navigate the organization and, and access resources is huge.
[00:19:29] And you know what, if I were to. Write a book. What, what just went through my mind was if I were to write a book around how to help, maybe I should, Shannon, this is a good
[00:19:37] shannon-part-2-hamilton_recording-1_2023-01-25--t06-34-54pm--guest691922--shannon-hamilton: That's a really good
[00:19:39] shannon-part-2-hamilton_recording-1_2023-01-25--t06-34-54pm--61157a395affa4006d0cfc64--lollyg: write a book around how to help HR business partners, HR leaders and l and d od professionals work more effectively with stakeholders, these are some of the key tips that I would definitely include.
[00:19:50] Like it's, and, and I think. , you know, it's realistic and it's, it's not scary. It's about like, yes, this person is my internal client. And you know, a lot of clients do show up with prescribed solutions. Like, I have this problem and here's what I want you to do with it. And that can be intimidating for, for a lot of Talent professionals, right?
[00:20:10] They're sort of like, oh, okay. And, and ear earlier in their career. A lot of times they'll just take it at face value. I know I've made that mistake and okay. And I create the program and I roll it out and I do whatever, sort of took orders and it doesn't actually have the impact there. The, there's we, because we never got to the root cause of the issue,
[00:20:31] shannon-part-2-hamilton_recording-1_2023-01-25--t06-34-54pm--guest691922--shannon-hamilton: I, I say that to my team, you know, you need to ask why at least three times, but ideally five times in order to, to get to the root cause of something. And we need to do that with our prospective customers. And I do that internally when I'm trying to understand why are we taking a certain approach? Is there an opportunity to do it differently?
[00:20:48] But I can't just take the, the cer, the, you know, the surface answer. I need to probe a. deeper, and I think, you know, partners that I've worked with before have done it in a constructive way. Not to challenge because it isn't the right thinking, but to really try to get to what's the route, what, where, where do we need to start and how are we gonna make this successful?
[00:21:05] So yeah, I've taken, I've taken that approach and used it a few times.
[00:21:09] shannon-part-2-hamilton_recording-1_2023-01-25--t06-34-54pm--61157a395affa4006d0cfc64--lollyg: Yeah. Excellent. So, okay, so let's kind of flip over from w you know, what has worked for you in partnering with, with Talend and HR folks to what hasn't worked? Just, and you don't have to give specifics clearly of where you were and so on, but just like, what are some things that kind of, you know, if you could.
[00:21:28] tell us what, what we should avoid
[00:21:31] shannon-part-2-hamilton_recording-1_2023-01-25--t06-34-54pm--guest691922--shannon-hamilton: Yeah. You know what? I think it's, it's probably just the flip side of what we were just talking about is, you know, giving you a very prescriptive and giving me a prescriptive answers. Well, this is the way it is and this is the way that we have to do it. And perhaps not being willing to understand either how the business evolved has evolved.
[00:21:49] Sales is always changing. You know, the, I would say right now, data is the new currency, the way that I'm selling kind of consultatively today versus. The way that we would've sold product feature value, you know, even three years ago is changing. And so the way that we've approached certain problems within the business, we need to look at them differently.
[00:22:10] And so having the willingness to have that discussion and to re-explore things that might have worked a certain way in the past but now need to be thought of differently you know, I've. To situations where there's been resistance. Well, this is the way it is and, and, you know, in bigger organizations, There are processes and there are approaches, and they are very good, but sometimes you need somebody who's gonna work with you to be that champion, to move things forward and, and to take a little bit of risk to see what's possible.
[00:22:40] So when it hasn't worked out so well, it's been, you know, feeling like. There's been a barrier between my need to and willingness to innovate and try to push speed a little bit faster with a resistance that, well, this is the way that it is. And, and that's hard. Especially in the part of the business that's responsible for growth and sort of, as I say, keeping the lights on.
[00:23:03] shannon-part-2-hamilton_recording-1_2023-01-25--t06-34-54pm--61157a395affa4006d0cfc64--lollyg: Yeah. Fair enough. Well, that's always the trick, right? Like how do we. How do we be consultative enough? It's both in sales and, and in in learning and, and talent management, you know, be consultative enough to ensure that, you know, we're getting to the root cause. There's lots of clarity. There's, there's buy-in in terms of the approach that, that, the different ways we could approach it.
[00:23:24] And then the final decision on how will we and, and that need. for speed, for going quickly, for being innovative, for pushing the boundaries. And, and, and it can be hard sometimes in the moment, I think to sort of gauge how far is too far or not far enough. Right? So it goes back to that collaboration piece you were talking about, right?
[00:23:42] If you've got that relationship and that openness, you can, you can respectfully push each other's thinking.
[00:23:49] shannon-part-2-hamilton_recording-1_2023-01-25--t06-34-54pm--guest691922--shannon-hamilton: and the one and maybe other thing that I would add, and you know, I don't know if this is a post covid phenomenon, but there's so many changes organizations are making to things like benefits and flexibility. And frankly, even just compensation plans, especially in sales, we've seen like an explosion of compensation plans and you know, the level of.
[00:24:11] Dollars that are being put out for top performing pe, top performing people has been quite astronomical. But in h you know, I, and I try to keep pace with everything that I'm seeing and hearing. But you know, it's also nice to kind of be fed from my HR business partner. Some of the things that they're seeing, what, what are some of the cutting edge things?
[00:24:30] What should we be looking at in order to try to attract and create flexibility? You know, sometimes it's reminding me of things that exist within our business that maybe I'm not leveraging or selling enough to new people that I'm bringing on board, but There's a lot going on in, in the space, just like there's a lot going on in sales and supply chain and, you know, I don't expect, you know, my HR counterparts to know everything that's, that's going on in, in the industry.
[00:24:55] But we need to come together and kind of share those learnings and opportunities and, you know, I get excited too when, you know, a, a new idea gets presented to me that might have impact to retain people higher, faster, and, you know, rethink maybe the way that, that we've been doing compensation in a certain way. I think it's a two-way street.
[00:25:14] shannon-part-2-hamilton_recording-1_2023-01-25--t06-34-54pm--61157a395affa4006d0cfc64--lollyg: Yeah. Yeah. It's that keeping that flow of information. and it really, like, what I just envisioned was this, talent HR professional going, oh, oh, this is an interesting, you know, piece of research that they've come across. You know, most of the folks in my discipline are subscribe to a lot of email list and Harvard Business Review and read a lot of books and so on.
[00:25:34] But to, to go beyond that and sort of say, well, if I think about my clients internally, here's Shannon over in sales. Sh oh, this could really, you know, so even if you don't re. the connection right away. It's actually having a practice built around what, in what I've read over the last week, would be useful for each of my clients.
[00:25:55] Asking, asking yourself that question and actually writing it down. Cuz I think, you know, if you think about sales, that's always been. . What's always impressed me with the best salespeople that I have great relationships with is they remember the details. My friend Magdalena is like that. She's the executive search, and she, she remembers, you know, my son's name, the year he was born, my husband's name, the like, like just everything.
[00:26:16] Like, it's just like nothing.
[00:26:17] So I really always feel like she knows me, she sees me, and so I feel like that's, you know, take that kind of premise internally in terms of how you think about your internal clients.
[00:26:29] shannon-part-2-hamilton_recording-1_2023-01-25--t06-34-54pm--guest691922--shannon-hamilton: I think, yeah, I think that's a. Great example of just a better way to build an overall relationship. And I, I don't know, there's relat, you know, to, and to me that's how I build relationships with my, you know, all of my key stakeholders. I would call them. There's not just HR business partners, but my key stakeholders.
[00:26:48] I need to do the same thing in marketing and technology and, and finance. So I, I think it's just a. A means of, of how you, you work, especially in larger matrix organizations, in order to try to make sure that, you know, everybody's got a similar understanding, you're leveraging the, you know, I always say that, you know, you, the, the sum of the, the team is not in its individual parts.
[00:27:10] It's, it's more everybody's collective experience that's gonna make. The business stronger. And in order to tap in into that, you need to have collaboration and open communication and idea sharing. And that's the fun part that's been, I think in working in some smaller and even Blackberry, you know, the division that I'm in is a sort of startup within the bigger business, but it's that innovation culture.
[00:27:32] It's, and I really enjoy that because otherwise you're getting stale. You're standing still.
[00:27:38] shannon-part-2-hamilton_recording-1_2023-01-25--t06-34-54pm--61157a395affa4006d0cfc64--lollyg: Exactly. Wonderful. Well, so this proactive sharing that flow of information is so interesting and important. So we're coming to the end of our, of our time together. And the last question I have for you is really about. about you and your overall experience, you know, because more broadly, I, I talk a lot about leadership experience and you know, what, you know, the best practices for leaders, for instance.
[00:28:01] So what's been your biggest leadership lesson over the many years that you've been a leader?
[00:28:09] shannon-part-2-hamilton_recording-1_2023-01-25--t06-34-54pm--guest691922--shannon-hamilton: So, you know, I think about a time, and I've, I've actually shared this example a few times and it was probably one of the moments that was the hardest to hear at the time but had the most impact. And, and so if I can give you a bit of context you know, I had moved into a new role within American Express at the time, and I was leading a function I had never led. I was also leading a team that was predominantly male in that business unit. And being younger in my career, you know, I was appreciative of the opportunity to take on something that was completely new because I knew that the organization valued the way that I had tackled previous business problems, the way that I had led teams.
[00:28:51] And so I was going in with a high degree of confidence. I could assess what the opportunities and challenges were for that group, and I could come up with a plan in order to. Improve the end goals for, for that specific function. And I sort of went in very focused, very driven. As I, as I,
[00:29:09] shannon-part-2-hamilton_recording-1_2023-01-25--t06-34-54pm--61157a395affa4006d0cfc64--lollyg: doesn't sound like you
[00:29:11] shannon-part-2-hamilton_recording-1_2023-01-25--t06-34-54pm--guest691922--shannon-hamilton: as I know I can be.
[00:29:13] And I had a leader at the time who thank goodness had the courage to actually give me constructive feedback and came to me and, and said, Shannon, you know, you're, you've got such a great track record. You do such great work. We have all the. That you're gonna be able to solve this problem. But did you know that the team that you've just taken on is not really loving your approach?
[00:29:35] They're actually finding it difficult to, to work with you right now and. I was shocked. I, I couldn't believe it. And you know, one of the things that, that, that leader had the courage to gimme feedback on was you're not connecting with the team. It, it's not that they don't see your vision and that they understand that there's process changes in system changes that need to take place.
[00:30:00] I was in an operations role at the. But they, they just wanna be able to have trust in you and follow you as a leader. And the thing that I learned was I was charging forward. It's that scenario where you're charging the hill as the leader and you look back and nobody's behind you. And I had missed the opportunity that, you know, in a couple things and in my maybe stereotype of the team, it was a male team.
[00:30:27] They were very tenured, they knew what they were doing, and. , I miss that opportunity to just connect with them as individuals, their families, their personal life, their, you know, their, their career journey within American Express to the point that they got into that role. And it was a real eye-opener because I had always seen myself and had really good feedback that I connect and, you know, I can be a strong communicator and I can build consensus and I can help drive change and, but I, I think the balance at that moment was being so driven and focused on the end goal and maybe having some, you know, stereotypes around how I was going to work with that team.
[00:31:07] These things. All working well together. So, you know, the combination of getting the feedback and realizing I needed to slow down a little bit and take the time to also explain why we were making changes, how it was gonna benefit the team, seek input, and really kind of probably do the things that I had done before.
[00:31:26] But I, I came into this opportunity, very driven. And I think in hindsight made me realize that sometimes you need to go slow to move fast.
[00:31:35] shannon-part-2-hamilton_recording-1_2023-01-25--t06-34-54pm--61157a395affa4006d0cfc64--lollyg: that's what I always say. I completely
[00:31:37] shannon-part-2-hamilton_recording-1_2023-01-25--t06-34-54pm--guest691922--shannon-hamilton: Interestingly enough. And you know, the people. Being authentic and connecting with people even early on when you, when you join new teams is so important.
[00:31:48] Because when you can build trust and people have a good understanding of where you're going, even if they disagree, right? I'm always a big believer. Challenge me if you, if you don't understand. We can agree to disagree, but at least we'll have a common understanding together. Missing the opportunity to connect with the team was a big learning and you know, also making sure that you're as mu as much as I can move fast, that I slow down to make sure that I've got everyone around me and with me so that we're all kind of moving lock step together.
[00:32:16] shannon-part-2-hamilton_recording-1_2023-01-25--t06-34-54pm--61157a395affa4006d0cfc64--lollyg: So a quick follow up question on that one, cuz when you mentioned the stereotypes piece do you mean because they were all male and you were younger? Female and so Yeah, cuz I could see that the, you know, that and, and a lot of, a lot of women listening will, will relate, right? You tend to sort of say, . Oh, men don't need as much connection and I need to show them what I can do.
[00:32:35] I need to come out. Guns are blaring, right? Charging that hill, as you put it. I don't love the war metaphors, but hey, that's what, what's what come to man came to mind here, but you know, I think it's a very real thing. So it's, it's checking your assumptions. So key when you're onboarding. That's, that actually makes me think of another episode with Melissa Law, when it's called Onboarding Yourself.
[00:32:55] I can't think of the episode number, but she had been on previously when she was working more independently as a, as a coach. And then she'd rejoined a new organization as their leader of, of talent. And you know, we had this great discussion about, with her insight into building onboarding programs and how to bring people on in an elegant, effective way.
[00:33:14] She was trying to use those same principles to onboard herself, right? And, and one of the key things is don't make assumptions , right? Because we think we know.
[00:33:24] shannon-part-2-hamilton_recording-1_2023-01-25--t06-34-54pm--guest691922--shannon-hamilton: And, and some of those individuals who I still keep in contact with to this day, and it's, you know, almost 10 years later are some of the most thoughtful, considerate men that I have in my network who will send me, you know, very random notes of support for things that they've seen me post on LinkedIn or reach out and share updates about the, you know, their family and how things are going.
[00:33:46] And, yeah, I think it, it made. Made me realize at that point that everybody wants to feel valued. Everybody, you know, wants to connect and, and everybody will do it at their own pace, and you need to find sort of the, the common interests or ground for each person. But . Yeah. Overlooking it at that point in my career was a, was a mistake and thankfully somebody pointed it out to me and, you know, it's nice that, you know, I think about those people still to this day and have connections that are very positive and, you know, it's nice.
[00:34:16] It's, that's a nice memory of that time especially as I've continued to grow in, in leadership.
[00:34:23] shannon-part-2-hamilton_recording-1_2023-01-25--t06-34-54pm--61157a395affa4006d0cfc64--lollyg: Well, and what a, what a beautiful. really, because, you know, I firmly believe it's, it's hard in the moment as you, you said it was hard to hear that errors that, you know, times when we fall down on our face and, you know, we're sort of like, gobsmacked. What, what, what ha you know, it, it's hard. And those are usually the most powerful learning experiences that, that make us so much better, evolve us into more agile humans. yeah. Not just. Beautiful. Well, I wanna thank you so much. I love you. You're an amazing friend and you're an amazing leader and I appreciate you coming on the show.
[00:34:56] shannon-part-2-hamilton_recording-1_2023-01-25--t06-34-54pm--guest691922--shannon-hamilton: Thank you, Lisa. Thank you for the opportunity. You're, you're doing great with all your podcasts.
[00:35:00] shannon-part-2-hamilton_recording-1_2023-01-25--t06-34-54pm--61157a395affa4006d0cfc64--lollyg: Thank you.
[00:35:01] shannon-part-2-hamilton_recording-1_2023-01-25--t06-34-54pm--guest691922--shannon-hamilton: Take care.
