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[00:01:36] One of the most important skills that talent leaders must master is working effectively with stakeholders, your internal clients. It's also the area that many of you struggle with the most. . So what do your internal stakeholders really value about you, your team, and the services you provide? What works from their perspective and what doesn't tune in today to hear from someone who's been that internal client to many HR teams over the years.
[00:02:09] With this episode, I'm continuing to bring stakeholder perspectives to the show going beyond stories from other talent leaders. My guest is Ranna. Gosh. Ranna is vice President of omnichannel loyalty and ancillary revenue at Spirit Airlines. Ranna is a so-called corporate gypsy who has moved from the financial sector to energy retail and now loves being in the air airline space.
[00:02:33] He leads Spirit Airlines, digital transformation, e-commerce, ancillary revenue, loyalty programs, and guest care. He's passionate about people development and technology. . He lives in Fort Lauderdale, Florida and loves travel, concerts, movies, sports, bourbon, food and theater, and he hates boredom and bad storytelling.
[00:02:54] Rena and I got our start in leadership together many moons ago and have remained great friends ever since. He is the real deal. My listeners, an authentic, inspiring, incredibly smart and visionary. and he's also one of the funniest people I've ever met. . My face generally hurts from laughing so much after I've seen him enjoy the episode.
[00:03:16] rana-ghosh_recording-1_2023-02-09--t06-08-35pm--61157a395affa4006d0cfc64--lollyg: Hello and welcome back to Talent Management Truths. I'm your host Lisa Mitchell, and today is very exciting for me, . I'm joined by a good friend of mine and former colleague Grana Gsh. Ranna is the vice president. It's very long, long title of Omnichannel commerce, loyalty and guest care at Spirit Airlines.
[00:03:40] It's my pleasure to have you here today, Ranna.
[00:03:43] rana-ghosh_recording-1_2023-02-09--t06-08-35pm--guest236646--rana-: Thank you. I'm I'm very excited. It's it's been far too long for you to have invited me to your show finally. So
[00:03:49] rana-ghosh_recording-1_2023-02-09--t06-08-35pm--61157a395affa4006d0cfc64--lollyg: Frankly, yes. I don't know what took me so long. Damn. Well. So for listeners, part of what's exciting about, about this show is not just to get, to spend more time with Ranna, but also because this year, some of you may have, may know this, I've, I've. Put it out, out on social and in some of my newsletters, but I'm trying to bring something a little bit new to the show.
[00:04:09] So, in addition to interviewing talent learning and development, HR leaders, On the show, which, you know, you guys are principally the listeners of it. I'm also inviting leaders from a variety of different business units. Because one of the things I see in my work so often is that talent leaders that I support are trying to figure out how to.
[00:04:30] Best serve their stakeholders. And they have so many, they're, they, it's a very tricky role cuz they're not revenue generators, they're kind of in the middle. Everybody wants something from them, but they also don't necessarily wanna give them the resources in terms of time, money, et cetera, to do the things.
[00:04:44] And sometimes, you know, that's, What we tell ourselves. It's not always true, but it is tricky cuz you, you, you want to serve. And so influencing stakeholders, really understanding what they want is critical. And this is where we can get tripped up. So by bringing on different perspectives such as rans, coming from more of a, a marketing side of things I think it'll gi give us some important insights that we can.
[00:05:06] Use and apply immediately. So that said, Ranna with Could you tell us a little bit about your professional journey, career journey?
[00:05:15] rana-ghosh_recording-1_2023-02-09--t06-08-35pm--guest236646--rana-: Yeah, absolutely. So, we started from an education side, so I'm gonna go way back and had started with a science degree, did a master's in, in neuroscience. and then managed to never use it a day after my my graduation date. So, so I'm very proud of the fact that that I, that I spent a number of years you know, educating myself on something that I never used.
[00:05:36] But from there, from certainly where, where you and I originally met worked in the kinda financial services space and primarily kind of. Kinda the VPO kind of, you know, idea that we had. And then from there moved into retail energy which was kind of a, a new field at the time.
[00:05:51] It was it was going through quite a bit of deregulation and so it was kind of an exciting growth period throughout both in Canada and in the us And which is kind of where it ultimately kind of led me. and then since I left there, I joined the airline space. So, so three entirely Dispar.
[00:06:08] Industries. I clearly love regulation cuz I keep following it around. But it's been just a, a wild journey. You know, I think I've been fortunate where, where I've kind of gone from build to build, you know, depending on both, both the companies and the industries that I've been in.
[00:06:23] And and it's just been absolutely fantastic, you know, and and even up to the point where I am. . Although we've been around for a number of years this, I was really here at a period when there was a lot of change happening within the organization in terms of our business model and kind of the, the focus that we were gonna put into the marketplace.
[00:06:38] And so, it's a really been thrilled that that have been part of a lot of very cool things that have happened. And in the industries,
[00:06:43] rana-ghosh_recording-1_2023-02-09--t06-08-35pm--61157a395affa4006d0cfc64--lollyg: Well, it is fascinating, right? When you think about I don't know, I hate to say it, but I think it's about 25 years ago that we worked together on the same management team. So it's so . Yeah, we're dating ourselves, but I was in charge of learning at the time and Trudy was our boss and you were one of the call center managers, I think, right?
[00:07:01] rana-ghosh_recording-1_2023-02-09--t06-08-35pm--guest236646--rana-: Well, I actually started as a, as a csr, right?
[00:07:04] rana-ghosh_recording-1_2023-02-09--t06-08-35pm--61157a395affa4006d0cfc64--lollyg: Yeah, so did I.
[00:07:05] rana-ghosh_recording-1_2023-02-09--t06-08-35pm--guest236646--rana-: Yeah, So when I first was there, I think you were already in management? I
[00:07:08] rana-ghosh_recording-1_2023-02-09--t06-08-35pm--61157a395affa4006d0cfc64--lollyg: think I trained you. Did I train you
[00:07:10] rana-ghosh_recording-1_2023-02-09--t06-08-35pm--guest236646--rana-: I think so. and I, and you know what's interesting? I, I was just talking to my wife about this the other day. That the time that we spent there that although was sort of starting at a, you know, obviously a very junior level and, and, and really felt like, Hey, I, I, I really underperformed in terms of education to, you
[00:07:27] know, first, sort of first opportunity that the, the years that I spent there I value incredibly because I think there was so much that we had learned because we were thrown into so many. Opportunities and there was a lot of sort of being seconded into different projects and
[00:07:40] rana-ghosh_recording-1_2023-02-09--t06-08-35pm--61157a395affa4006d0cfc64--lollyg: yes. RFPs
[00:07:42] rana-ghosh_recording-1_2023-02-09--t06-08-35pm--guest236646--rana-: yeah. And, and that was, you know, I think that was just such a, such an incredible learning in terms of just the different types of areas and functions that you could potentially, you know, get interested in.
[00:07:51] And then on top of that, the having a boss electricity, you know, who gave us a lot of latitude and gave us, but at the same time you know, really helped us get the mindset. around service and, and.
[00:08:03] people has really been the foundation of how I think to this day, right? That that it was, it was it was an in invaluable learning at the time, which, which I didn't really recognize, you know, it was sort of one of these things where you think, Hey, we're just like this little small little unit and this little business and, you know, we're, how are we fair in the, in the real world?
[00:08:21] rana-ghosh_recording-1_2023-02-09--t06-08-35pm--61157a395affa4006d0cfc64--lollyg: Well, and you know what's so interesting is that when I think back to those days you know, so it had the, a large call center component and then the large business process outsourcing, you know, so the back office and stuff is that a large group of us? The majority of, of the group of us that would hang out together, like we, we worked hard, but we also played hard.
[00:08:38] We'd have, we had a lot of fun together and still do not as frequently. So many of us ended up in senior executive. So many of us. I, I mean I can count them off, you know, , it's just nuts. So, and I, I, I wonder why that is. I often think about that. It's, it felt like such a ripe, fertile training ground.
[00:08:58] Right. You know, cuz as you said, we were kind of thrown into stuff and seconded. You know, I was seconded for almost two years on one project. And it was the most brilliant experience I ever had and I also, it was hard at times, but because we were such a tight-knit group you know, I think that sort of made it, it made it fun.
[00:09:14] So you would push through when it got a little bit rough? so the other thing too that I'd just like to point out from those days is, is that I, I married the guy I met there, and three of my best friends are, are from that era. I mean, you know, and then like that I see a lot at my girlfriends.
[00:09:29] And so, yeah, a really, really special time. So you, so you left there. So now talk a little bit. So then you were really in, in operations, customer service, and then somewhere along the line you really started focusing more on I think sales and marketing.
[00:09:44] Really didn't know what I was doing, frankly at the beginning, you know, just kinda got into it because it seemed cool. and cause I was living in Alberta, so if you're in Alberta, you kinda work in the energy space, right? And and within that area, had a number of roles and started.
[00:09:57] Very operations kinda led to product and then eventually into sales and then into kinda more marketing type type roles. And then move from there eventually to the airline space. Which again, it was a totally different . Yeah, huge shift, huge shift. And, have been pretty much in the marketing arena since then.
[00:10:15] so I guess it'll be about eight years now. and it's. Just a kinda a wild ride. You know, going through various industries you kinda learn not only just the, the technical sort of details of the industry, but you also learn that, that as you kind of continue to move forward, most businesses kind of require the same types of things to, to operate.
[00:10:33] and it's so, you know, you continue to apply your learnings from the previous one and go to the next one. but this has been incredibly fortunate to have had the, the opportunities that I. . Yeah. It's such a it is been such a neat experience watching your career as you've moved around.
[00:10:46] Right. I, you know, from in Ontario, you know, Mississauga east of Toronto, where we, where we started together about 20, 25 years ago. And then, and then you moved to Alberta with your love. Yes. And, and now you're in the states. Yeah. So I moved to Yeah, yeah, that's right. I moved to Pittsburgh in between and then from Pittsburgh.
[00:11:03] Oh yeah, Pittsburgh. Yeah. Ended up in Fort Lauderdale. You know, during Covid actually moved back to Canada for pretty sure too, and then came back again. So it's been you know, it's, yeah, I've sort of follow. Where the interest has been and we know it's sort of, so far, it has led us to south Florida.
[00:11:17] Yeah. Wonderful, wonderful. Gotta get down there one of these days. Alright, so, so what I, I appreciate about your background and about you coming on the show is, is because you got such. Diversity in terms of, you know, different industries and different roles, and you have encountered, I'm sure a whole lot of partners in the area of hr, talent management, learning development and so on.
[00:11:40] And so I'd love to understand like how you define. Talent management. Like what? And, and, and HR in general, because talent, I'm not just talking about like tiny talent, like let's do the, the tap. Or some people see talent management as more like on the acquisition, talent acquisition right side of things, but it's a little bit broader here.
[00:11:57] So what, how do you view it? Yeah. Well, you know, so I, I lemme just start by saying that we are, I have been incredibly fortunate to have had great HR partners almost in every gig that I've had. And you know, there's a, there's. . There's been a couple of blips, you know, in there that that as we've, as I've been gone through my career where, where some changes have not exactly been the best in terms of some of the partners that I've, that I've ended up with.
[00:12:21] But, but in the whole, so I'd say 95% of the time I've ended up with having great HR partners and HR support. And what I, and the reason I I say that is, is that I think one of the, the most important things for me in terms of partner. is, is truly being embedded in my business. So, so, you know, for me, the, the best HR partners that I've had and the HR or teams that I've had, have always really had a good understanding of what the drivers were of my business, right?
[00:12:49] And so, so whether, whether it was, it was around very specific technical skill sets, whether it was around some, some market issues in terms of, you know, what was available in terms of talent in the marketplace and being able to adjust to. Being competitive with both on the acquisition side and on the retention side.
[00:13:06] But then just as important, frankly, it was once they come into the organization is, is how do we actually develop them? You know, how do we actually get them Yes. To be, to be they kinda the top sort of realize the potential that they, that we thought they had when they, when they first applied.
[00:13:20] and, and you know, I, I have a very transparent approach, I think with, with my HR partners in, in terms. I share a lot and, and probably share more than they even care about in terms of my business. Cause , you know, I can sometimes see their, their eyes and roll back in the back of their heads a little bit.
[00:13:34] But, but I think it's, but I think it's important that they understand what I think about, and, and by understanding what I think about in terms of the things that, that I am concerned about and what I'm trying to get done, whether they're HR related or. . If you understand those things, then you have a much better position to be able to identify where, where may, there may be some some gaps coming up.
[00:13:53] There may be gaps that I've already have. There may be some opportunities or issues that, that need to be identified. We, I recognize we all have blind spots and so I look for multiple partners, not just hr but certainly HR helps me identify that if there are things that I'm not paying attention to or potentially need to pay more attention.
[00:14:09] Then, then that's a great way for, for them to be able to flag those, those items for me. Mm. Yeah. I, I do see that as a huge part of the, the value that that HR and talent can bring is, is, is, you know, because they're looking kind of holistically, they're not in this sort of specialist domain or the generalist domain, so they're sort of able to, to figure out like, oh, did you know that this is going on over here?
[00:14:30] Or that this person's had this reaction and so on. Yeah. How, now, how do, like, what's been the most effective way that someone surfaced the blind spot for you? You know, so there's the search, a couple things. One is somewhat formally, meaning that there's a, there's a host of courses out there, right?
[00:14:45] All these sort of, these assessment programs that you can take. Yes. and I'm a, as you know, I'm a sucker for those. Right. Those, those are some of the, the, the, my favorite things that I've ever done in terms of workshops and what have you. and these are, you know, for lack of a better term, these are personality sort of assessments.
[00:14:59] Yeah. And, and what they, what they continue to sort of highlight. are how your strengths can also be your, your weaknesses. Right? And, and I, and, and because I've, I've, I've done enough of these, I am constantly cognizant of the fact that the things that I lean on most heavily in terms of what I consider to be my strengths and what, and frankly what I'm, I'm most comfortable with.
[00:15:18] Because, you know, if I consider them my strengths, I'm also most comfortable with them. Is also the area of kinda complacency for me that because I rely on those things that there are things that I'm probably not paying attention to where I'm overusing, right. And I'm, and I'm relying too heavily on some of those trends.
[00:15:32] The, the other more less structured way. is, is that most of my HR partners you know, I I have become generally friends with my HR partners and they feel comfortable enough clearly to just tell me that that I'm, that I've got these blind spots. So, so I think it's always been it's been great for me to to just get feedback on, on what those, those opportunities are, because I think.
[00:15:54] Yeah, the worst thing in my mind that I can do is just assume that, that I've got it. You know, that I, that I'm, that I'm covering all the bases and not take that, that input from others. And and so I think the biggest learning for me over the last 30 years 25 years has been. To really stop talking which I'm not doing a very good job of right now, but, you know, it's kinda my job.
[00:16:12] That's ok. , that's what you're supposed to do in a podcast. but I, and, and doing a lot more listening, right? I think I think in the past back, you know, when you and I worked together, you would've known that and I'm quite open to share this, that I wasn't the best at it. You know, I, I had a, I had a real strong view on, on my capabilities and, you know, what, what the, were the things that I was.
[00:16:30] and felt that other inputs really were not the, the things that I needed. and over time you realize very quickly that that it, that by making that, that it's a, a very poor assumption to make. and certainly over time, I think I've become more comfortable, frankly around, around feedback because I've only seen it help me in terms of my career growth.
[00:16:48] So, so if it helps me I try to apply again, those same principles to to others, right? In terms. Finding out how comfortable they are with my feedback. And if they're not, that's fine. You know, we'll, we'll, we'll get there. but I, I share that story. You know, I share kind of my own experience because I, I recognize how important it has been for me.
[00:17:04] Yeah, I, I appreciate what you're saying. Well, first of all, the whole idea that strengths. I say this a lot of time, weaknesses are really your strengths magnified right? You're either overusing them or underusing them. And, and so part of our journey on this earth, both professionally and personally, is really to figure out like how can we become more agile so that we're not ju you know, it is just the way I am.
[00:17:24] And we're instead choosing to kind of, dial up or dial down as a situation demands or the people around us. And that's a core part of what I think talent and HR leaders can do is, you know what I wrote down just now too, what you were saying around feedback is help leaders. Learn how to, to get feedback, how to receive it gracefully and really grow from it to become RA agile and help them give it in a way that has the impact you want and not the opposite.
[00:17:51] Right. That's exactly right. You're, you're a hundred percent correct. Yeah. Okay. So, so when you think about the role and it, and it's tough here cuz cuz HR and talent, it's so broad, right? Because you could have HR people that are really focused on comp and payroll or operations or employee relations or more on the talent side, the growing and the development development side.
[00:18:10] And I kind of cover that whole space in terms of who listens. But if you were to say, you know, what the core value is of this discipline that we call talent, For you as a business leader over the years, what is that, that value? Well, to me, I, I think it is, it is the idea that, that the people as an asset, right?
[00:18:29] So, so if you, you consider this as a, as a fundamental asset of the business. So, so just like I think about our planes in my current gig, right? As, as a, as a core asset, right? That that I, I really. , I gotta maintain it. I gotta acquire them. I gotta make sure they're, they're clean and functioning and working well.
[00:18:45] I mean, I don't do any of those things, but, you know, , the organization does those things. Yes. But if I think about that as an asset, right? And, and that is a core asset for us to be successful as a business, right? That in order for us to go out there and, and be successful I think what people very much the sa same the same way.
[00:19:00] And, and so when I think about what HR is supposed to help me, are all those things that I, just, me, that I just mentioned, right? How do I acquire, how do I maintain, how do I develop, how do I ensure that that, you know, we're, there's sort of the appropriate hygiene that we're kind of putting, putting our kind of employees through.
[00:19:16] But that to me is, is that if you are able to actually get the, the, to the maximum value of the individuals that are com are part of the organization, are coming into the organization or been here for many years, that, that ultimately is, is where businesses succeed. Right. And, and you know, if I think about sort of the.
[00:19:34] the math for me has always been you take care of your people and you make sure that they are the best they can be. They will then in turn take care of your customers and have the best customers that you can get. And that takes care of the money. Right. So the money is the end, the, the money is not the, the thing you're doing right.
[00:19:49] From the, from the get go. Right. you, you can have a business model that is trying to make me money, but, but the, but the the real way to get. to me is, is start with you people who will take care of your customers, who will take care of getting you paid. Yeah. The and, and it's, you know, the employee experience that drives that customer experience.
[00:20:05] Absolutely. You know? Absolutely. Yeah. Full stop. Okay. And, and, and I've been in, you know, I've been in environments where I've seen exactly that, employees that are, that are thrilled. And, and where I am actually is a good example. And, you know, I don't think my my PR guys will, will beat me up too much for saying this.
[00:20:18] But when I first got here, I think there was a real sense that the, you know, we. a cheap airline. and so, so, you know, employees, you know, the flight attendants, the folks at the airport, you know, anyone that wore the spirit shirt were not super proud of, of where they were. Right? Because, because they, they were not seen as, as a company that was necessarily offering the kind of value out in the marketplace on its own.
[00:20:41] It was just, it was cheap. And so people treated it as cheap, right? And, you know, so all the, all the kinda discussions would occur. And so you'd see people when they'd go for lunch, they'd take their badges off and they'd kinda go out there and. . But then when we made the ship that said, Hey, we're gonna, we're gonna actually be a value based airline, meaning that, that we wanna offer the, the kinda the appropriate level of service over the cost, right?
[00:21:01] Over the price that you pay, that gives you high value, right? So, so ultimately all value is determined by, by how you think about what you've paid and what you got for it, right? And that's, that's what, what the value statement is. And, and when we made that shift and started really, you know, getting ourselves to a spot where the employees.
[00:21:18] like they were offering a good service. They, because they were being taken care of, they were constantly being, we were training them more, we were giving them, you know, a appropriate just attire, right? Like, just they're, you know, they look more professional. And, and then giving them professional programs that they could enter into getting better communications, et cetera, et cetera.
[00:21:34] All those things that were happening, they really started swelling up in terms of their own pride, and then they started taking care of their customers, our customers, our passengers, and our guests in a much more professional. and, and we became wildly profitable, right? And so, you know, nothing better than watching it happen in real life.
[00:21:52] in just real time seeing all that thing, all the stuff that I just was just saying happen over the last couple years. And I think that's just been just evidence of, of my, my belief system on, on how this works. And what a fabulous example. So congratulations by the way, on, on, you know, the fact that the, the company's had such great success, but it is such a great example of, you know, it takes everyone, right, this, this collaboration to even make this happen so that the, the employees could feel taken care of and have the training and development that they needed in order to serve the customers in order to Right.
[00:22:21] You know, I mean, it's, it's it's business, various business units coming together with. The folks that might be listening, you know, talent in HR and, and you know, coming at it from all angles. Bringing all those perspectives to bear. That's exactly right. Yeah. Okay. So when you look back now, so, so you've had some, you know, been very fortunate with some of the partners that you've had, which is, which is so music to my ears, so great to hear.
[00:22:44] You know, is there any kind of time when you got to an organization or a period in an organization where, you know, you were like, Ugh, like we don't have this, I wish HR talent could deliver on this. Like, you know, I used to have this, I really miss it. Or there was something about the approach that, that, that wasn't working for you.
[00:23:01] The same, you know, I'm not looking for you to tell tales, but just like what doesn't work for. . Yeah. Well, I think the, the, the idea that HR exists simply as a, when you need it type of approach is what doesn't work for me as a rule, right? So, so in, in organizations that I'm, and I'm, and like you said, I'm not gonna name any names, but Right.
[00:23:21] But there been parts, and I, and I, and I've moved around within companies quite a bit as well, right? So, so sometimes you sort of move. Department X or Division X and move to Division Y. And so, you know, they have their own sort of support functions, but they, but I've, I've sort of seen the the range of, and what I've more, accustomed to now is, is having individuals that I, like I said, are embedded in my business in a sense.
[00:23:43] But what I, what doesn't work for me, our, our groups that sort of sit on the sidelines and just are there if you need them. So if you have an issue or if you have. A problem, go to them. and I think that's where, where, where HR and talent management really fails, right? Because, because they don't know who my folks are, they don't know what are the challenges within my team.
[00:24:05] They don't understand what we're trying to accomplish from a goals perspective. And as a result of it, their response tends to be a little bit rote. So they tend to have responses that says, Hey, the playbook says do this. And that's the response. And again, I said, listen. , I could've come up with that myself,
[00:24:20] Right? I don't need support for that. What I really need is, is someone whose discipline is, is HR and talent management to be thinking about these things kind of concurrently as I am, right? And understanding who the folks are within my shop that are, they're doing those things. So that's, that's probably the only thing that I would say is, has been my, my biggest issue, you know, is, is when, when HR is, does not see themselves really as being part of the business that you'll see themselves almost as a sort of an administrative per.
[00:24:45] Side of the business. To me it's absolutely core to the way businesses should run, right? That you should have strong HR teams that, that feel like they are just. Just as critical of a success as the revenue guys and the commercial guys and the operations guys. Yeah. Oh, I couldn't agree more. And you know, though, I will tell you that in reality for, for lots of folks that I work with in some organizations that I work with, you know, HR feels relegated to the sidelines.
[00:25:09] Yep. Rightly or wrongly, not every leader is as transparent as you or as agile as, as you have become and chosen to become. So, so sometimes there's there. Grains of truth to that, that they're not invited in or, or, or they're, they're pushed away when they try to come to the, to that proverbial table. What are your thoughts around that?
[00:25:28] Like what, what, what can these leaders do when they are feeling like they can't sort of nudge their way in? Well, I think, you know, for me it's, it's about, it's about value creation, right? And, and I think, you know, and I, and I'd be guilty of what you just said as well, that, that, you know, if I'm, if I'm. and on certain things, and I just don't have time.
[00:25:47] And I just think, okay, well, you know, I'll get to that later. Right. I'll get to that HR e thing later. not, it's not, it's not the top of my list, but ultimately it comes down to, to value creation in, in everything we do. Right. And, and so, so for leaders that are struggling to kind of be seen, I suppose, by, within the organization I think it's, it's the, my recommendation.
[00:26:08] Is, find out what you believe to be the issues. And most people will tell pe you know, if you're not invited by the leadership, I'll tell you who will invite you is are the boots on the ground as a rule, right? Because boots on the ground love to talk about what's happening within their yes. Their shops and your, and, and my recommendation is, is spend as much time with the people, understand what the issues are, and then start working on it.
[00:26:30] Irrespective of what the leadership may have said is, is your set of priorities, right? And, and if you can bring, bring some wins to the table. . I think that's what ultimately gets you, gets you noticed, right? Is is that, is that in any part of the organization, frankly, and this is true of truly of anyone, not just hr, but the reason in, you know, groups get somewhat relegated to the periphery is, is because then people just don't think they're that important, right?
[00:26:53] They don't, they're not core to the way that businesses should be running. And so if you can kind of show that, hey, here's what I was able to find out and here's what I, what I've been able to do as a result of the things that I've, that I've. And here's how it's gonna impact your business, right? Here's, it's gonna mean that you're gonna be able to run faster, or you're gonna be more efficient, or you're gonna, you're gonna be able to compete more aggressively with, you know, with your main competitor.
[00:27:14] Those are the types of, types of kind of value statements that people want to hear, and it, and it helps people make the connection between what HR does. and what the business schools are. Right. And I think that's always the difficulty for like, when I hear those kinda, cause I hear what you just said from, from a lot of my HR friends, right.
[00:27:31] That are outside of this organization. and I again haven't really sort what are things that they can necessarily do because they're just, they're kind order following and just sort of direction as opposed to saying, Hey, I'm just gonna sort of take this on myself and I'm gonna create something that maybe wasn't.
[00:27:49] Yeah. It's so funny. So early in my, you know, when I, I, I did do the HR gig, not just the, the training and talent side the whole time. And I, I remember my boss friend of mine, Sherry, said to me, you know, she goes, listen, we are not the party planners in order takers. right. We, you know, people might think you are and you're not the police either.
[00:28:07] You're not there to. . So you're, you know, it's, and, and so I've, I've really come to have this whole philosophy that it's about the value you add. Do you remember Trudy, our old boss would say, in God, we trust all others. Bring data. Yes. Bring data. Exactly. So, so that has always stuck with me as well, right? So it's got those wins, show the data, you know, help leaders see what they can't see, which you were, you were speaking about earlier.
[00:28:29] What are the blind, blind spots? you know, so a couple things you, you touched on. So, I could have come up with this myself. So right there, we don't want clients to be saying that, right? So we've gotta, we've gotta think like our, like our stakeholders, right? And, and, and understand like, how are they seeing the world?
[00:28:45] Not, how do you see it? And, and you know, cuz a lot of, a lot of really well-intentioned. Brilliant HR and talent leaders, myself included, you know, back in the day would, would be like, this is what we've got, we need them to do. Right. They need to embrace this program, it's gonna fix all of their problems.
[00:29:03] Right. Because, you know, we'd get so enthusiastic about the latest thing and all, all that kinda stuff, but it, it may, you know, cuz that. You know, we don't like it when, when leaders prescribe solutions, say, here's the problem and here's the prescription I want you to deliver. But nor should we prescribe without really that like a first understanding.
[00:29:21] What are we trying to solve for? What is this all about? And, and providing options first, not just going with, you know, the first thing that comes up. Yeah, absolutely. I couldn't. Okay, so this is, we're almost outta time, so I'm gonna come to my last question here. So when you think about, you know, it's kind of a crazy world right now, right?
[00:29:40] We've got a lot of stuff going on with this out of control, inflation and interest rates, and. people experiencing homelessness more and more and, you know, all, all over the place. And there's, there's just a lot of also social justice issues going on, right. Like with a lot of outrage and, you know, we had coming out of the covid like pandemic era, like it's really been something else.
[00:30:01] So when you look at all of that, what would you say are, you know, what is maybe the biggest opportunity for, for talent and HR leaders right now to make an impact? Yeah. I think this is a, this is maybe a kind of, almost like my response is a more of a broader leadership comment, right?
[00:30:21] Beautiful. Is that I think, and this is where, but I obviously, I feel like HR is what can. This is that I think this idea of vulnerability amongst leadership, right? I think is, is, is been something that's been kinda out there, you know, Brandon Brown and everything else, and we're always talking about this, but I think more than ever it's, it's become, you know, kind of almost critical, right?
[00:30:43] Because, because as, as so much is happening and if you can actually acknowledge that you're not entirely clear sometimes on how to, how to approach certain issues that may be happen. That maybe you're learning yourself, right? So, so we're, as an organization, we're going through a major D E I B I'll call it implementation, right?
[00:30:57] We're trying to, we're trying to make this, you know, more core to the fabric of who we are. And, and as part of that though is, you know, I think you have to sort of start with an acknowledgement that says, I really didn't know that much about it before. Right? And, and maybe, you know, maybe I've got a bunch of blind spots that, that I'm not aware of or, or I don't even understand what, what the issues are, right.
[00:31:17] and having, having some of that vulnerability and having that, that conversation to be able to say that, that I'm only to learn, right. and input matters, right? Input sort of helps me kinda get, get better educated. And if I make, you know, if there's some full pause that, that I go through That, that we, I think we have to have kind of the ability to just acknowledge that, that there is a lot going. and that other people have gone through a lot. Right. That, that, you know, whatever we may be thinking about in terms of, in terms of kind of the the expectations that we have of our, of our teams, that, that we can, we only sort of see what they're willing for us to see and, and just having a little bit of openness to just acknowledge that, that maybe what we're seeing is not everything that is happening, you know, that there's, it's the, it's the iceberg sort of effect.
[00:31:59] You know, there's, you sort of. See the tip and, the rest of it is, is, you know, there's a lot going on potentially at the household and a lot going on in terms of how people are thinking about themselves or how they're thinking about safety or how they're thinking about belonging. All of those really are, you know, they're critical for us to be thinking about, but it's a lot to think about, you know, it's, and you have bigger teams like I do.
[00:32:17] It's, it's difficult to, you know, get that kind of connection with that many people. Right. So, so, so the kinda, the approach for me is, I think is, is how to sort of train leaders to train their leaders to, to train their. , right? To, to allow for that, for that openness and that, and being vulnerable where you can have those conversations, you can actually allow people to approach you.
[00:32:38] and I think it's okay to just learn how to say no, right? I don't know. I don't know. Not, I not know as in I don't want to, no, as in, I really don't have the answer. and I think. That's gonna be, I think that'll differentiate honestly the, the companies that do that well versus ones that don't.
[00:32:53] Right. I think think we're in a, we're in a very different marketplace. You know, COVID, covid flipped things on its head, And I think leadership is gonna have to adopt and adapt to, to really be, be successful as we go forward. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Beautifully put. And I, really resonates with me this, and, and it does apply to broader leadership, this idea of, of vulnerability being critical.
[00:33:13] I mean, it is. , it's, it's almost like a, a non-negotiable at this point. And what's great is that I am seeing more and more organizations and leaders talking about it. So, so it makes me feel hopeful. Right. Particularly after coming through such a, a tough period for people as they sort of navigate like, wow, , what's this all about now?
[00:33:31] Well, in fact, I mean, I'd say it's probably the hardest thing for individuals. Forget about leaders, just individuals broadly. to just to allow that to happen right. In, in a, in a space that they consider to be work. You know, that, that, yeah. You know, this is, this idea, you know, we always sort of think about this idea of, of being who you are, irrespective of where you are, right?
[00:33:51] So, so who you are outside of work and who you're at home and who the, the, the, the, the easiest thing to do is be that same person in all of those facets of your life, right? And, and for those individuals that. Don't like to open themselves up at home or at the office or at any other space. Asking people at work to do that suddenly just feels like a huge violation.
[00:34:14] Right. And I, and I think that's the, the difficulty is that, is that it's not, you're not really trying to crack them into a different space just at the workspace in the workplace rather. , you're trying to actually crack into them as a, as individuals. Right. That's as humans. As humans. Right. Exactly. Like yeah.
[00:34:30] The, the, the very fragile human side of us. Right. Like, instead of packing that away and feeling like I have to have all the answers and I have to appear credible and, you know, it's, it's and, and I think modeling the way, right, like it has to start with each of us. That's right. And we have to make it.
[00:34:45] right? Yeah. Truly safe. And really think about not what's safe for you, what's safe for other people to allow them to kind of , you know, step, just, just briefly outside the comfort zone. Right. To be a little more vulnerable and, and, and open. Yeah. Yeah. Can agree more. Awesome. Well, thank you so, so much, honestly, from the bottom of my heart for coming on today and uh, this has been really insightful. I have a million little sound bites and quotes and, and you brought a lot of great perspective for us. Thank you. Well, you're quite welcome, Lisa. I really appreciate you letting me do this. And we gotta say we've come a long way since band camp, so we, we Oh, there's the band camp reference.
[00:35:21] Okay. Okay. Listeners, I'm not telling you about that one. Alright, . Alright, love you. Great to see you. You take care. Okay. Bye.
