[00:00:00] The number one challenge I see for talent leaders is getting swept up in what I call the reaction bandaid vortex. This is the place where you're feeling unclear, stuck, uninspired, and transactional. Your confidence may have taken a hit. You don't have time to plan, create, or strategize. You're simply surviving, slapping band-aid solutions on the problems you encount.
[00:01:14] It doesn't have to be this way. The solution lies in deciding to be more intentional. It means you need to set yourself up with the necessary supports and community so that you get clarity on what you want and become consistent and persistent in your pursuit of it. , this is where I come in. I believe talent leaders have enormous potential to make organizations better.
[00:01:37] When you are properly supported, then you in turn will cultivate an employee experience that makes your organization stand out. Whether you're ready to work with a coach
[00:01:48] or a talent management thought partner, or you want to enroll in one of my group programs, I'd be delighted to speak with you about your needs and wants.
[00:01:56] Visit my website, green apple consulting.ca and click on work with us to learn more. Thank you. How can an organization truly tap into the potential of its people? Especially as the new chat G p T type tools give rise to fear and uncertainty around the future of work. , listen to this episode for some inspiration and practical ideas from a best in class organization and leader. My guest is Neil Hunter with over 30 years of industry experience.
[00:02:31] Neil is currently the Chief learning officer for Deloitte, Canada. He's also held senior roles in the energy industry, public sector, and not-for-profit organizations. He's also a former C H R. He started his career as a pastor and did that for about a decade in this episode, he shares with us what led him to move into HR from that career.
[00:02:52] Neil is a true thought leader. He's very generous in sharing how Deloitte approaches learning =and= growth given its large and diverse workshop. I'm sure you'll enjoy this episode. Hello and welcome back to Talent Management Truths. I'm your host, Lisa Mitchell, and today I'm joined by my guest Neil Hunter. Neil is the Chief Learning Officer for Deloitte, Canada and Chile, and I'm really pleased to have you with me today. Neil,
[00:03:21] neil-hunter_recording-1_2023-03-29--t02-45-33pm--61157a395affa4006d0cfc64--lollyg: welcome.
[00:03:22] neil-hunter_recording-1_2023-03-29--t02-45-33pm--guest1689--neil-hunter: you. Thank you. So, excited to be here and looking forward to the con.
[00:03:26] neil-hunter_recording-1_2023-03-29--t02-45-33pm--61157a395affa4006d0cfc64--lollyg: Likewise. Well, perhaps we could begin by having you share a little bit about your career journey. It's been, been really interesting one, and what you currently do at Deloitte.
[00:03:37] neil-hunter_recording-1_2023-03-29--t02-45-33pm--guest1689--neil-hunter: Sure. Yeah, I, I, I'm always fascinated by the squiggly paths that we all have in our careers. Mine is, is definitely not a straight line. So I started my career my work life as a. Church pastor actually. And it's not been a, a it's not been something that's far from the heart of how I approach everything that I do.
[00:03:59] And it's exactly why I got into hr. Because it's people focused. So, move from church pastoring to working in the University of British Columbia in the HR space at the Center for Molecular Medicine and Therapeutics. Initially and then on into the broader higher education field for a bit.
[00:04:18] Made a stop in civic government as the C H R O for the regional municipality for Wood Buffalo. Spent some time at a number of energy companies and have been in and out of our professional services, whether it's at Accenture and at Deloitte today. So it's, it's been a great path. Always anchored on focused on helping people to enjoy work-life and, and bring potential to life is really the focus of my career for, for most of it.
[00:04:49] So I'm really excited now in the role that I have as Chief Learning Officer at Deloitte to, to do that in a meaningful way and to, to bring all of the experience I've had and, and the tremendous growth mindset need that's, that's required to unpack what, what it is that people are looking for today what it is that our organization needs, and how do we bring those two things together to, to make for.
[00:05:14] neil-hunter_recording-1_2023-03-29--t02-45-33pm--61157a395affa4006d0cfc64--lollyg: magic. Yes. And that, you know, that bringing of potential to life, I think is so critical. That's, that's really become my life's work as well. I, I, I think that Helping people, you know, see their own potential and potential of others, if that's what it's all about. You know, I'm, I, I love the squiggly line analogy, right?
[00:05:33] With the, with the career. I, I think I may have shared with you when we first met that I was previously a French teacher, and so it, maybe it's not that much of a zigzag as yours. But you know, I moved into teaching adults essentially. What was it like? I get the people connection, the anchoring in people that you have in common between pastoring and hr.
[00:05:53] What opened you up to even explore it though, in the first place before you went over to ubc?
[00:05:59] neil-hunter_recording-1_2023-03-29--t02-45-33pm--guest1689--neil-hunter: Yeah. You know, it was, I got into the business of church. . And so, for example, we had you know, a group of pastors across the country, all of whom needed development and, and growth opportunities in, in their careers as well to become better at, at their craft. And have began to see, you know, that the techniques that were in HR as a real.
[00:06:23] A real, you know, there's an application in that space. And got really into the, to the value of that and recognized that I actually enjoyed That, that craft as much as I did what was going on in my, in my personal life and you know, just the demands of the demands on pastors and pastors families was significant.
[00:06:40] And so I saw this as a means to find my, my sense of purpose and meaning beyond that my spiritual life.
[00:06:47] neil-hunter_recording-1_2023-03-29--t02-45-33pm--61157a395affa4006d0cfc64--lollyg: Mm. Yeah. Thank you for sharing that. I think that's so intriguing, right? Just to, to dig into sometimes like what, what, what causes that squiggly line, right? Because there's, there's, there's these moments in life, right? Where sometimes we don't know what we don't know. When something kind of hits us in the forehead and we're like, oh, oh, I could go over there.
[00:07:06] I'm seeing that right now with my son as we, we tour universities. He's, he's in grade 11. Had this moment on the weekend that, you know, he was talking to some students in, in programs at one of the schools that he's considering and, and he realized I don't wanna study English. That's what he'd been sort of going towards cuz he, you know, likes to read and, and write all that jazz and he's decided it's history.
[00:07:28] So even just, you know, knowing what you don't want can be really powerful in terms of deciding what
[00:07:36] neil-hunter_recording-1_2023-03-29--t02-45-33pm--guest1689--neil-hunter: Yeah. And I, you know, I, it's funny you, you mentioned the collisions we have with individuals, like serendipitous conversations that we had part one of the, one of the. Things I was doing in, in my role in the business of church was we actually engaged a professional services company to come and help us at that time it was the first time we'd rolled out computers to all our pastors.
[00:08:02] This was back in 19, I believe it would've been 19. 89, something like that. So personal computers were shipped out to every, pastor and I was a accountable to make sure we got that set up. And, and they were trained in how to use that, that new tool. And it was fascinating. They, so first of all, I arrived, traveled across the country to each. Pastor's homes, sometimes the computer and the printer and all the boxes were still sitting on the front step. They were not making it into the house. That device was not coming in. It was gonna be used for evil, not for good. So he had a whole cultural component to that.
[00:08:43] neil-hunter_recording-1_2023-03-29--t02-45-33pm--61157a395affa4006d0cfc64--lollyg: and.
[00:08:44] neil-hunter_recording-1_2023-03-29--t02-45-33pm--guest1689--neil-hunter: time I spent, because they, I traveled with these consultants from Price Waterhouse at the time the time I spent with them was what lit my fire on.
[00:08:54] This is really interesting to me in terms of what they do in this talent and people space. And so it was, it was those relationships that, and conversations that actually brought it to life.
[00:09:07] neil-hunter_recording-1_2023-03-29--t02-45-33pm--61157a395affa4006d0cfc64--lollyg: So, so what was it about the skillset they brought, because it sounds like, you know, , you're trying to, you've got some resistors, like as with any change, right? You've got some resistors, some early adopters, some others that are sort of in the middle. And so what was it about that work that, that spoke to you?
[00:09:26] neil-hunter_recording-1_2023-03-29--t02-45-33pm--guest1689--neil-hunter: you know, the, the power of listening, the listening that they did.
[00:09:31] They translated that and came back with really insightful questions that unlocked for people why, like what was going on for them, and then they could address it. And I watched it. It was masterful in the, the quality of questions and the way that they listened and reframed what they heard that people would say.
[00:09:53] Yeah. Yeah. That's what I mean. And then you had trust. could move, they could move people. It was a change management masterclass that I saw taking place in front of me. And I just, it was so attractive to me that that I could see the lights go on in people's eyes and the aha moment that they have.
[00:10:12] And then the excitement came, which. Was turning fear to excitement and energy and purpose, and that's what attracted me was I that something in a quick conversation they were masterfully able to do that I want to be able to do. That
[00:10:29] neil-hunter_recording-1_2023-03-29--t02-45-33pm--61157a395affa4006d0cfc64--lollyg: Yeah, well it's bringing potential to life, right?
[00:10:31] neil-hunter_recording-1_2023-03-29--t02-45-33pm--guest1689--neil-hunter: totally exactly it.
[00:10:33] neil-hunter_recording-1_2023-03-29--t02-45-33pm--61157a395affa4006d0cfc64--lollyg: when we're in fear, we're stuck. and this, this idea of listening in the insightful questions, cuz I feel that that is . The foundation of what talent and HR leaders and professionals do is help help their stakeholders get clear on what they want, and how are we gonna know when the shift you want has actually happened?
[00:10:53] Because, you know, it's easy to have, have things sort of like, can you go do this or build this program, or whatever, and it's like, well, what are, what's, what's the desired impact? Let's get really clear on that.
[00:11:04] neil-hunter_recording-1_2023-03-29--t02-45-33pm--guest1689--neil-hunter: Yeah. It's interesting. I, I mean, I, I mentioned this concept to you before, but I think in hr I learned very early in my HR career, there are sheriffs and there are shepherds.
[00:11:15] neil-hunter_recording-1_2023-03-29--t02-45-33pm--61157a395affa4006d0cfc64--lollyg: Hmm.
[00:11:16] neil-hunter_recording-1_2023-03-29--t02-45-33pm--guest1689--neil-hunter: And some people approach hr. If you ask any HR professional, why are you in hr? They will typically answer, cuz I love people. Right. But I've also learned, and this is evolving, I think the, our industry's evolving, but I learned back then that there were people, yes, they loved people, but they actually love telling people what to. Right. They liked hr, the policy side, they liked being able to give clarity to people. And it was more of a sheriff.
[00:11:45] And, and you would say probably today we would say they were more on the side of the firm or the organization than they were of, of their their employees. And then you have the sh the shepherds who really feel like they're, they're there to. And to help both the organization and the employees, right, and the needs.
[00:12:06] And that, that, that mindset really shows up in the way and the culture of many organizations as hr, I do feel, has a talent, has a stewardship role in the culture. And it can have a feel of a shepherd or it can have a feel of a sheriff, right? Service. Service shows up in different ways and is interpreted differently.
[00:12:28] So it's one of the thing, I saw it, I saw it firsthand, you know, in a shepherding way in terms of helping people make their way through and navigate through difficult, turbulent times. That's what a shepherd would do. Versus mandating your way through and, and following policy and imposing policy on, on.
[00:12:47] neil-hunter_recording-1_2023-03-29--t02-45-33pm--61157a395affa4006d0cfc64--lollyg: Yeah. Well, and it's, it's such a, an important point and I wanna dig into this a bit further because something that I'm doing this year with the show now that I'm into the second year, is really trying to bring the perspectives of, of other stakeholders. So I've been interviewing HR and talent leaders like yourself all along, and that's what I did for.
[00:13:06] decades. So now though I, I find in my work with clients is that, you know, that that need to truly listen and understand your stakeholders and what they need, what they want, what they don't want is critical. So I'm actually bringing leaders from other areas like sales, marketing, finance, audit, et cetera, onto the show.
[00:13:27] So there's gonna be a smattering of these kinds of episodes. But it's funny because the episode that, that, that went live today, actually as we record. With Ran. Gosh. He talks a little bit about, you know, I like the sense was that he wants his HR and talent partners to help him see what he doesn't already see himself.
[00:13:47] Right. See something different. Bring that, that different lens, that other perspective and, and, but not to sort of be that police force Right. Telling me what to do. I, I, I wanna partner with you. I wanna co-create.
[00:14:01] neil-hunter_recording-1_2023-03-29--t02-45-33pm--guest1689--neil-hunter: Yeah, yeah. It's a a, I mean, it truly is a what a great opportunity to come alongside someone and help, right? And so, And if you have the patience that, that, that won't, you know, people will get where they need to get to. But sometimes we, we can't, you know, we like to control the pace at which that takes place, et cetera.
[00:14:22] And so I think it's, it's really important that when we, you know, when we take on this role and we engage in this role, we do come at it from. Truly come alongside and partner and support as opposed to having all the answers and telling people where to go. There's no growth in that. And in fact you will put in many cases, a, a brand around.
[00:14:47] What, what we do from a talent perspective. There's lots of conflicting when you do talk to people in the business conflicting sense of value in the service that's provided. And it's usually based on that exact concept of am I being helped and served or am I actually being told what to do? And I put that in that sheriff shepherd language from that.
[00:15:07] neil-hunter_recording-1_2023-03-29--t02-45-33pm--61157a395affa4006d0cfc64--lollyg: I, I hear you. Yeah. I, I really feel fundamentally that the, the opportunity for, for HR and talent leaders and partners is, is to consider your job as this, like three words. Basically, we facilitate discovery. So we don't have to come with all of the answers. We're helping br pull those out. That's our skill is asking those really insightful questions that you mentioned earlier, and then listening deeply and not taking answers at face value and continuing to, to probe and follow up.
[00:15:38] neil-hunter_recording-1_2023-03-29--t02-45-33pm--guest1689--neil-hunter: Yeah, I do. I do think though,
[00:15:41] we need to bring a point of view. As well. I think part of that provocation and coaching and coming alongside is to, in the space of talent and people et cetera, we should have a strong point of view to help. That's part of how you come along and help. Just asking questions is one thing, but you need to do so through a lens of there's a perspective and a guidance that we can.
[00:16:06] neil-hunter_recording-1_2023-03-29--t02-45-33pm--61157a395affa4006d0cfc64--lollyg: Oh, I agree. Yeah, and I wasn't excluding that skill. In fact, you know, it's. , I really appreciate that you, you brought that point to bear, you know, to have a point of view, cuz that's part of the raison debt of this show is to help HR and talent leaders really step into their own thought leadership and sort of say like, well, what do I believe?
[00:16:24] What do I know for sure sounds great, Oprah? Because, what I typically, the reaction I meet when I invite people, Me, I'm not sure I have anything good to say, you know, or anything that's worth, worth the sharing. And it's so interesting to me because then I'll get, you know, that same person can come on and, and I get these great, you know, emails from people saying, oh my God, that was so refreshing and that really resonated and I really connected to that person's experience.
[00:16:51] And that's, that's what it's all about.
[00:16:53] neil-hunter_recording-1_2023-03-29--t02-45-33pm--guest1689--neil-hunter: Yeah.
[00:16:54] neil-hunter_recording-1_2023-03-29--t02-45-33pm--61157a395affa4006d0cfc64--lollyg: So, okay. So, you know, with the sheriffs and the shepherds another question that I have, you know, since you bring up that concept, is at Deloitte. I mean, I think you've got something like 23,000 employees in, in Canada and Chile combined. How, how do you strike a balance?
[00:17:11] Because in the end there's HR operations, there's the st, the keeping, the lights on stuff that needs to happen. And then there's the facilitation of discovery and the point of view. How do you kind of work to blend all of.
[00:17:24] neil-hunter_recording-1_2023-03-29--t02-45-33pm--guest1689--neil-hunter: Yeah, I think, you know, there's concepts like freedom within a Frame. and the, the real, the real magic, if I could say it in a, in a big organization, is creating personalized experience that feels equitable and part of something.
[00:17:44] neil-hunter_recording-1_2023-03-29--t02-45-33pm--61157a395affa4006d0cfc64--lollyg: Hmm.
[00:17:44] neil-hunter_recording-1_2023-03-29--t02-45-33pm--guest1689--neil-hunter: so, getting to a place where we can create whether it be programs or an environment where people feel safe to first declare their experience, we're all starting at different places.
[00:17:56] The firm, you know, our firm, it, it's not just the number of people, it's the breadth. What the firm's involved in. There's no industry in Canada that we're not doing some work with. So whether it's in government or it's in energy, or it's in you know, with banking or are not for profit, it's full spectrum.
[00:18:16] So everyone in our firm have different skills, different wants, needs, desires, et cetera. So we're trying to create a space where each of those people feel a sense of purpose. and meaning in the work that they're doing, that they feel seen in some way. And it really does come down to as big as the firm is.
[00:18:37] It comes down to, you've heard, you know, people join Deloitte, but then they've got a leader. And I, I love the stories around you know, we are, we're most engaged on day one of any job. Right, because we're excited to be there. We're happy to have this new role, and then we meet our, our team and you're like, Ugh, a little less engaged.
[00:19:01] One or two of these people aren't awesome, others are great. You meet your leader. You may or may not be immediately connected and feel like you've got support and or trust there, et cetera. So we go on this journey of how much of me am I actually going to bring? into this. Right. And I think our, our goal at Deloitte has been to truly create an environment where that experience is about bringing more of meat, the whole person.
[00:19:34] We talk about building better humans, not better, better Deloitte practitioner. So what does that look and feel like? How do we create a space where each person can select who and what they want to be when they grow? And change it as regularly as they want. 30 careers in 30 years is very real concept at Deloitte.
[00:19:55] So you get to, you get to show up and change and grow and develop and evolve as a person. And that 23,000 people are doing that in their own firm, is in their own organization and in their own way is a powerful concept to be part. How does that get created? It very much is one heart at a time and listening to all of those hearts and creating a frame where they can, they can thrive and then really good leadership on the ground.
[00:20:28] So as much as we do create these experiences, The, it comes to life with your team and your leader. There's many, many cultures within that 23,000 people, right? It's not all one. And those microcultures need to reflect the broader piece and the, and the broader relationship that you have with your leader and, and who you anchor your career.
[00:20:53] neil-hunter_recording-1_2023-03-29--t02-45-33pm--61157a395affa4006d0cfc64--lollyg: Well, thank you for that peak behind the curtains because you know, when you said, you know, it's, it's actually a real thing that some people can say, I've had 30 careers in 30 years in the same company because I literally just interviewed somebody Carrie Cartwright, who's no longer there, but spent 21 years at Deloitte. and actually had said the same thing to me, live episode 74 listeners. so she's, she's a real life testimonial to, to that very fact. So with this individualization of learning you know, something that you, you'd also shared with me when we first met was that you're the dean of the Deloitte University
[00:21:26] and you've got some really.
[00:21:27] Wonderful models at play there. And how does the individualization, you know, how is it supported through, through the work you do there? If it is,
[00:21:37] neil-hunter_recording-1_2023-03-29--t02-45-33pm--guest1689--neil-hunter: Yeah. Deloitte University's such a powerful component of our talent. Value proposition. Right. In terms of and what's really interesting, I mean it has a nore of university. So what does that, what does that mean? It's really, to be honest, our university so, so there's metrics out of our US firm.
[00:21:57] For example, let's say two days at that Deloitte University in the first 90 days of your experience at Deloitte yields us five x re.
[00:22:09] So it's that kind of an experience. It's not just learn about learning. In fact, I would say we create an experience at Deloitte University that is anchored on connection.
[00:22:23] It's anchored on building a network of like-minded people that will last you a lifetime. I remember my cohort in, university down in California. We. It's now like 30 years late, 35 years later, we are still in contact and interested in each other's lives. It, there's something about the experience you have.
[00:22:46] When you learn and stretch and grow together, that bonds you in a, in a unique way. So there are cohorts that go through when you meet, meet milestones in the firm. So you grow to, you know, promotion and new roles, et cetera. You'll come into the university and, and get anchored in that new role and, and with a cohort together.
[00:23:07] Build a network and it becomes the way you get things done in the firm through that, through that network. So it's more about connection. It's probably 80% an engagement vehicle and 20% a learning vehicle, especially, especially since whether you love or hate the 70 20 10. From a learning perspective, we believe that Deloitte, 80% of our development is actually done in the flow of work through an apprenticeship culture.
[00:23:35] And so the DU experience is part of that 10. It's 10% of your, where development actually happens. So it's not like our practitioners come to Deloitte University, become magically delicious, and then go back out. It's very much a, they learn that we, we plant some seeds that really get watered and grown in the flow of work.
[00:23:56] neil-hunter_recording-1_2023-03-29--t02-45-33pm--61157a395affa4006d0cfc64--lollyg: Oh, I love that. And because, you know, I think that we can be in a rush to, you know, especially in that, in that desire to serve others and perhaps to tell them what they need to do you know, in some cases is, is we're in a rush to, to create this magical. You know, tree of, of learning versus looking at it as, as a process that never ends,
[00:24:25] that takes place over time.
[00:24:26] That it's a process of, of cultivation if nurturing.
[00:24:30] neil-hunter_recording-1_2023-03-29--t02-45-33pm--guest1689--neil-hunter: Yeah, I mean the deep deeply rooted in our ethos is, you know, Carol Wick's construct around growth mindset, fixed mindset. If that we, we really do value growth mindset. and what, and how that comes to life in the firm and, and that you engage in every experience as a learning experience. Going into pro, going into, you know, the nature of our work is you're, you know, linked to, if you're in the advisory business, you end up on a project, you go into a client, you come out going into that with learning objective.
[00:25:07] Intentional learning objectives that you declare to your leader and say, this is what I want to develop while I'm on this particular project. And having the leader create experiences, exposure, and some education for you to be able to get those things is the, is the powerful part of what, where development actually happens and why.
[00:25:29] We think hack time to competence in many ways because we've created these experiences and exposure on multiple clients and you learn very quickly what it means to be in certain kinds of. Experiences and, and challenges, projects, et cetera, because we don't usually get called into projects until an organization's tried it themselves three or four times.
[00:25:54] And then they're like, well, well, and whether it's because they need the horsepower or because they need the thought the thought leadership. But coming in after people have already tried and failed means you have to come in and, and be good at what you do.
[00:26:07] Right.
[00:26:07] And so, our people are constantly having to stay up on and develop and grow and stretch and learn and, and, and apply what they've, what they've seen and
[00:26:16] neil-hunter_recording-1_2023-03-29--t02-45-33pm--61157a395affa4006d0cfc64--lollyg: Stay agile within, within the field and, and in the context of what's going on.
[00:26:22] neil-hunter_recording-1_2023-03-29--t02-45-33pm--guest1689--neil-hunter: yeah. So you can't, you can't survive in a fixed mindset construct around, you know, I've got my skills, I bring 'em, use
[00:26:29] neil-hunter_recording-1_2023-03-29--t02-45-33pm--61157a395affa4006d0cfc64--lollyg: I am who I am. I am what I am. Like a Popeye thing.
[00:26:32] neil-hunter_recording-1_2023-03-29--t02-45-33pm--guest1689--neil-hunter: Yeah. Yeah. And so as you evolve, as you evolve and develop, you keep falling into new jobs, new, new roles and that, that development begins to fuel you in a way that connects to your sense of purpose and meaning, and you can shape it, right?
[00:26:47] So you, you aren't in this same field doing the same thing for 30 years. You've actually felt like you've been in 30 different careers, Can you get competent in 30 things in 30 years? Pro probably. We believe you actually can.
[00:27:02] neil-hunter_recording-1_2023-03-29--t02-45-33pm--61157a395affa4006d0cfc64--lollyg: Well, it's just the, the, the idea of as, as humans, you know, stepping into that potential potential is, is unlimited. It's so, I'm so interesting that you bring up the growth mindset by Carol Dweck cuz that's, that's a big piece of my work in the, in the coaching work that I do. Cuz just last night at the dinner table we were congratulating our son because he got 93.
[00:27:23] On his math test. And this is a big thing, a, a big thing cuz only probably two years ago, he wanted to never take math again. Felt, you know, it was fully in the fixed mindset of I can't, I just can't. And then it became a, Through a long journey, you know, I can't yet. And so he actually, they talked about growth mindset last month in one of his classes.
[00:27:46] And he was exposed to that. He was all, all excited to come home and tell me, mom, I bet you know what this is. I'm like, yes, I do. So he said, he said last night, he goes, you know, it's, it's, I, I really, I can't believe I got a 93% that that's even possible. And he goes, it makes me think of that growth mindset stuff,
[00:28:05] neil-hunter_recording-1_2023-03-29--t02-45-33pm--guest1689--neil-hunter: Yeah.
[00:28:06] neil-hunter_recording-1_2023-03-29--t02-45-33pm--61157a395affa4006d0cfc64--lollyg: know,
[00:28:07] neil-hunter_recording-1_2023-03-29--t02-45-33pm--guest1689--neil-hunter: Yeah, exactly. That's the power of it. Totally. Yeah. And wow, 93% in math. I, I'm envious, so
[00:28:15] neil-hunter_recording-1_2023-03-29--t02-45-33pm--61157a395affa4006d0cfc64--lollyg: Yeah. Yeah. Oh, I'm super proud of him as a, as somebody who wanted to quit, and it was a big struggle. Pretty, pretty interesting.
[00:28:22] neil-hunter_recording-1_2023-03-29--t02-45-33pm--guest1689--neil-hunter: If you marry, if you marry growth mindset with new, the great new stuff that's coming out around the neuroscience and the plasticity of the brain, et cetera, you, you really start to see powerful concepts come to life. Like we, on some of our deep technical learning, we incorporate things like ten second.
[00:28:42] Breaks
[00:28:44] because the l the research in neuroscience says if you take, if you're doing a deep technical training and you take ten second breaks, in that 10 seconds of not doing something, your brain does 20 x processing of what you just learned in the previous three minutes, and what a powerful tool to, to make sure retention and growth is happening and the rewiring of neurons can take place.
[00:29:09] It's the same thing that happens at. at the end of day, we do all of that processing of what? Just what have I learned? What do I need to retain, what can I discard? Filing at the end of the day in 10 seconds, you can do the same thing in a learning context where you, you refile everything and then you can layer on learning and continuously grow.
[00:29:30] It's fascinating how the, the science is now catching up to what we. Think we knew like adult learning principles are now coming to bear. The Huberman lab, I don't know if you've heard of his podcast, but they just came out with some fascinating research at Stanford around these concepts of how to prepare your brain to learn.
[00:29:50] Like literally tell yourself you don't need to think about your arms and legs for this training focus. and you can have your mind all focused on those things and the autonomy of things that would just go on anyway, you don't have to think about. so it's fascinating to see how this comes to life in learning principles so that people can grow.
[00:30:14] neil-hunter_recording-1_2023-03-29--t02-45-33pm--61157a395affa4006d0cfc64--lollyg: Well, and I, and I think you're right that it's been sort of intuitive to a large degree. Like this is why I've shifted all of my work that I do with groups and individuals to some way, like, it's not about teaching. And I was a French teacher for God's sakes. That's where I started, you know, 30 years ago.
[00:30:28] So it was truly didactic, it was teaching into everyth. It's, it's peer-based. It's, it's people figuring out what they wanna learn, need to learn, and then helping them learn to, to take intentional time, to set time. So, you know, I always say to clients like, you know when you have that feeling that you can't take a break, you just simply can't.
[00:30:47] There's just too much to do. That's exactly what you need to
[00:30:49] neil-hunter_recording-1_2023-03-29--t02-45-33pm--guest1689--neil-hunter: yeah, yeah, yeah. That's exactly it. Yeah. That and that learning that even. About yourself and when, and the triggers and listening to your,
[00:30:59] neil-hunter_recording-1_2023-03-29--t02-45-33pm--61157a395affa4006d0cfc64--lollyg: The
[00:30:59] neil-hunter_recording-1_2023-03-29--t02-45-33pm--guest1689--neil-hunter: yourself around wellness, et cetera, is something we've, we've all kind of pushed, I think through the pandemic. We all kind of pushed that, aside from listening to our.
[00:31:10] Our voices, et cetera. and it's why we got exhausted sitting in front of looking at a picture of ourselves, which we're, we're only designed to look at ourselves in the morning, in the mirror, and that's it. Right now we're at looking at each other f ourselves for eight hours a day, nine hours a day on, on Zoom calls.
[00:31:26] And it's exhausting. So the learning how to actually. Work with your brain and all of those things to, to, to grow and to to be well is, I think we should be passionate and excited about stuff like that. That, to me, is, is where the magic comes in. Bringing your best self to work and delivering your best for others in work as well.
[00:31:51] neil-hunter_recording-1_2023-03-29--t02-45-33pm--61157a395affa4006d0cfc64--lollyg: Yeah. Well, it comes back to, you know, it, it's, it's a form of self-care, right? To give yourself the space, the time to, to breathe. You know, I saw you did a post on box breathing, and I'm a big advocate of whether box breathing or 5 78 different techniques. But, you know, I tend to spin into. overdrive as a kind of that high achiever mentality, right?
[00:32:12] That's been, I've been in and outta burnout in my l my career. And so this is where it's part of my life's work now to help people notice when they're there so that they can step out, slow down, and, and then they're more productive. Their state of mind is,
[00:32:27] neil-hunter_recording-1_2023-03-29--t02-45-33pm--guest1689--neil-hunter: Yeah,
[00:32:28] neil-hunter_recording-1_2023-03-29--t02-45-33pm--61157a395affa4006d0cfc64--lollyg: here's a greater
[00:32:29] neil-hunter_recording-1_2023-03-29--t02-45-33pm--guest1689--neil-hunter: that's the irony, right? We have, we have uh, the, the blessing of having Tessa virtue, the gold medalist skater in, in our, in our firm. She talks about this moment that mattered in their career where she and her partner had a coach and they were training like 16 hours a day. And just pounding through with a goal to, to.
[00:32:51] and struggling and couldn't, and were getting fourth, fifth, sixth place finishes, right? They got a new coach who changed their regiment. It was more like 16 hours a week and they shifted to doing more mental stuff and you know, being very intentional when they were training on what they were training on.
[00:33:10] And lo and behold, You know, X number of gold medals later, they were so much better. But they attribute Tessa attributes the difference to being actually not doing more, but doing less and doing it very intentionally and adding other elements to it to, to succeed. And I think in business we do get this, like if, if four hours is good, eight hours is better, 10 is probably better.
[00:33:36] But this is a law of diminishing returns, right.
[00:33:38] neil-hunter_recording-1_2023-03-29--t02-45-33pm--61157a395affa4006d0cfc64--lollyg: It's, it's very much baked into our culture, certain North American culture. I mean, you know, I lived in France years ago for, and, and it was, you know, very, It's very different, you know, the two hour lunch, like, we're closed down. You can't go do your errands back then.
[00:33:51] Anyways, you know, I think we've started to contaminate those waters a little bit, right?
[00:33:56] But they, they had breaks baked into how they did work and how they interacted culturally anyway.
[00:34:03] neil-hunter_recording-1_2023-03-29--t02-45-33pm--guest1689--neil-hunter: Yeah. And how much you have to get done. This whole productivity thing,
[00:34:06] neil-hunter_recording-1_2023-03-29--t02-45-33pm--61157a395affa4006d0cfc64--lollyg: yeah
[00:34:07] neil-hunter_recording-1_2023-03-29--t02-45-33pm--guest1689--neil-hunter: around ringing the towel, we aren't towels. We, we, we need to, like, this is a marathon, not a sprint. And yes, there are times when. You need to step up, but we're like, it feels like the pedal is to the metal all the time. And I'm not sure that that's really, actually more productive.
[00:34:26] I, I think it's more damaging to individuals in the long term. And therefore our careers, you know, we, we see more and more people burning out cuz they, they buy into this and then, Fall into like the frog in hot water. The, the pot's boiling and they forget to hop out and next thing they know, they're, they're flat on their back with their body and brain telling them we're done.
[00:34:50] neil-hunter_recording-1_2023-03-29--t02-45-33pm--61157a395affa4006d0cfc64--lollyg: Oh, it's very real. I mean, your body. I, I had a client the other day, I was talking to him and, and, and he's like, I'm, I'm sick. physically sick. Like I, I keep getting these colds. I'm exhausted. And it's cuz his body is telling him, cuz he is not listening, you need to slow down. Something's gotta give, your body's going to gonna make it happen.
[00:35:10] It's ha it's, it's done that for me several times in my life. And, and it's, it's a fascinating thing. I, the frog analogy. I'd forgotten about that one. Well, so we're. Towards the end of, of our chat today, and I'm, I'm sad because, oh my goodness, there's so much more to talk about. when we, when we talk about this whole idea of, Being human centered and your approach at, at Deloitte about how you're really cultivating potential in people and, and helping them be self-directed in their learning and so on.
[00:35:43] What would you say is the most important thing for talent leaders to be thinking about as we look at the so-called future of work that everybody's talking about?
[00:35:53] neil-hunter_recording-1_2023-03-29--t02-45-33pm--guest1689--neil-hunter: Yeah, it's a, I mean, look, it's a. It's a thing, right? Trying to figure out, there's no shortage of ideas and concepts about you know, and things like the future of work is now I do think. What we're experiencing today is very much what you know, the pandemic was a a booster shot to, to a lot of those concepts.
[00:36:14] Things around how we use digital, how digital tools and humans come together to, to, to be digital, be an enabler, not a threat. And, and more and more of those concepts are coming out with ai, generative ai, et cetera, where we really see and I just had a, an experience with copilot. So this is Microsoft's new generative AI tool.
[00:36:36] It's going to be embedded in and wow. You can see the true power of it,
[00:36:41] neil-hunter_recording-1_2023-03-29--t02-45-33pm--61157a395affa4006d0cfc64--lollyg: Wow.
[00:36:42] neil-hunter_recording-1_2023-03-29--t02-45-33pm--guest1689--neil-hunter: can also see, and this is I think where as talent leaders, we really need to think about. The sum of the, so what there is a little bit dangerous if, if unchecked from an ethics perspective and also from a how we start to, if we talk about productivity, for example what takes today, three hours to build a a PowerPoint deck this AI can do in within 10
[00:37:07] neil-hunter_recording-1_2023-03-29--t02-45-33pm--61157a395affa4006d0cfc64--lollyg: That yes.
[00:37:09] neil-hunter_recording-1_2023-03-29--t02-45-33pm--guest1689--neil-hunter: So what will I spend my time on now? So the. Rethinking of what is inherently human skills that need to come to bear at work and what can we use technology to really help us do some of the things that previously would've seen, be seen as very few can do and is special. Now it's become, everyone can have access to that.
[00:37:34] What does that mean in terms of the, how we value work, how we value humans at work, and how we continue to develop ourselves in that space, that retooling and re-skilling and constantly being on top of is the future of work. There's no longer the 50 years in one job with a gold watch at the end. It's very much going to be, we are going to have to evolve continuously and be what you work on today.
[00:38:00] You're not making a, my kids keep getting asked, what do you want to be when you, when you grow up? You know, and I used to answer like policemen or firemen or doctor. These were like, set careers. Today, it's most of the careers that they will be involved in probably don't even have a name yet. And so, I think being, being in that world as a talent, it means stay flexible, stay open, and stay curious.
[00:38:29] neil-hunter_recording-1_2023-03-29--t02-45-33pm--61157a395affa4006d0cfc64--lollyg: Flexible, open and curious. These are the intentions I set every day. I think they're so, so critical. You know, the other thing that came up as you were speaking was just with this re-skilling, retooling that's gonna be necessary. It's really all about consistently. as AI generated, you know, assistance comes into play and so on, is how do.
[00:38:55] keep boosting ourselves up to those higher levels of thinking. So moving more into the analysis, the synthesis. It's not enough to just sort of know, apply know and apply. You know, we're, we're, we're needing to operate at those higher levels, which can be exhausting, which then again, brings up, you know, how do you refresh, refuel so that you can operate at those higher levels
[00:39:19] neil-hunter_recording-1_2023-03-29--t02-45-33pm--guest1689--neil-hunter: Yeah, the thing, the thing that really excited me is it goes right back to the start of our conversation, which was to, to use those tools really effectively. You need to ask, give it great questions. Right. The power of AI is how is the things that you ask it to do? You still have the power to shape it by the questions that you ask of it.
[00:39:41] And this is the exact same thing that engage me in HR in the first place, right? Was asking great questions that bring out amazing responses that are inspiring. It's happening again, but in a very different construct with a very different I.
[00:39:59] neil-hunter_recording-1_2023-03-29--t02-45-33pm--61157a395affa4006d0cfc64--lollyg: Excellent point. Yeah, really. It's a clear connection. I've been reading a lot about AI listeners. I encourage you to do the same because there's, there's a lot of opportunity here and we have to tread carefully and mindfully,
[00:40:11] I
[00:40:11] neil-hunter_recording-1_2023-03-29--t02-45-33pm--guest1689--neil-hunter: if you, if you can pick a rabbit hole to go down and just this is a good one because I think there's a lot there to, to unpack.
[00:40:19] neil-hunter_recording-1_2023-03-29--t02-45-33pm--61157a395affa4006d0cfc64--lollyg: Yeah, because Google just released Bard, I think yesterday. So their chat, G P T, uh
[00:40:24] neil-hunter_recording-1_2023-03-29--t02-45-33pm--guest1689--neil-hunter: More and more, right? It's gonna become uh, there's gonna be way more than we ever needed, for
[00:40:29] sure.
[00:40:30] neil-hunter_recording-1_2023-03-29--t02-45-33pm--61157a395affa4006d0cfc64--lollyg: yes. Oh yes. Interesting to see. Well, Neil, thank you from the bottom of my heart really for joining me today. This has been just a a really stimulating conversation and I, I so appreciate you sharing your thoughts and, and some of what, what the work you're doing at Deloitte. It's
[00:40:45] neil-hunter_recording-1_2023-03-29--t02-45-33pm--guest1689--neil-hunter: Yeah, my pleasure. I think we could probably talk for days, but
[00:40:47] neil-hunter_recording-1_2023-03-29--t02-45-33pm--61157a395affa4006d0cfc64--lollyg: I think so.
[00:40:48] I think so.
[00:40:49] I might have to get you back on at some point.
[00:40:51] neil-hunter_recording-1_2023-03-29--t02-45-33pm--guest1689--neil-hunter: I'd love, I'd love that.
[00:40:53] neil-hunter_recording-1_2023-03-29--t02-45-33pm--61157a395affa4006d0cfc64--lollyg: Okay. Thank you.
