[00:00:00] The number one challenge I see for talent leaders is getting swept up in what I call the reaction bandaid vortex. This is the place where you're feeling unclear, stuck, uninspired, and transactional. Your confidence may have taken a hit. You don't have time to plan, create, or strategize. You're simply surviving, slapping band-aid solutions on the problems you encount.
[00:01:14] It doesn't have to be this way. The solution lies in deciding to be more intentional. It means you need to set yourself up with the necessary supports and community so that you get clarity on what you want and become consistent and persistent in your pursuit of it. , this is where I come in. I believe talent leaders have enormous potential to make organizations better.
[00:01:37] When you are properly supported, then you in turn will cultivate an employee experience that makes your organization stand out. Whether you're ready to work with a coach
[00:01:48] or a talent management thought partner, or you want to enroll in one of my group programs, I'd be delighted to speak with you about your needs and wants.
[00:01:56] Visit my website, green apple consulting.ca and click on work with us to learn more. Thank you. What type of growth does your organization celebrate? How do you personalize growth and development for your employees? Listen to this episode for some alternative and thought-provoking ideas around how to navigate the age old problem of having fewer roles for people to move into the higher you go in an organization.
[00:02:28] my guest is Dil Jok Carr. Dil Jot is a global HR leader with deep experience in bringing teams and leaders together to build great companies and communities across diverse industries in Asia, middle East, and America. She currently leads people and culture for SB Energy, a renewable energy company that develops constructs and owns and operates some of the largest and most technically advanced renewable projects across the United.
[00:02:54] Dja won the 40 under 40 HR Leader Award in 2019, and today you'll see why she's a very savvy and thoughtful leader. You don't wanna miss this conversation. Enjoy the episode. Hello and welcome back to Talent Management Truths. I'm your host, Lisa Mitchell, and today I'm joined by my guest Dil Jo Carr. Dil Jot is the Vice President of People and Culture for SB Energy Group out of California Dil J. Welcome to the show. Great to have you. Absolutely. Thank you for having me, Lisa.
[00:03:29] So let's begin by sharing with the listeners a little bit about your career journey. It's quite unconventional in terms of what you originally studied at school and what you currently do at SB Energy. Oh, yes. I think you could absolutely define this as a conversion journey. , I am an engineer converted to an HR professional.
[00:03:49] And how did that happen? You know, during my internship as a chemical engineer, I worked in a F M C G organization only to realize that while we think everything is about manufacturing, operations, sales, and processes, instead, everything is about people. because they are the originators of all of this.
[00:04:09] And that's when things changed completely in my mind. And I bent ahead and got myself a degree in hr to, you know, take that on professionally. I started my HR career out of school as a HR consultant. I could get more exposure to, you know, a wide variety of industries. Also different types of HR aspects because you don't know what you wanna go into, Talent is a big area. Learning is another big area. Hiring is another whole different world. So what we sometimes don't give ourselves enough credit for is within hr there is a world full of possibilities and you are never taught enough to know what you wanna do within hr. So that was my way of knowing which part of HR intrigues me the most.
[00:04:56] I was pretty fortunate to do some pre interesting projects like designing. L D system for 44 ministries for Bahrain government and leading the flagship best employers study that Aon Huett did. So yeah, those were some experiences which gave me a little bit more insight into which areas of HR speak more to me.
[00:05:18] Um, .. And from there on, I moved to SAB Miller, now called AB InBev. They've been taken over by AB InBev to lead their people capability development. And it, as I thought that, you know, anything's easier than consulting. They, they wanted me to measure the ROI on some specific training spends related to brewing certifications that they were heavily investing in.
[00:05:38] and I think we cracked that in about two years. That role led to the next to manage countrywide talent initiatives. And then SoftBank energy happened where you know, they reached out with the head of people role. And the rest is history, as I say, within SoftBank six goods and tracking again, had the good fortune of working in SoftBank's investment arm for a few years, okay.
[00:06:03] To learn what an investor wants out of their portfolio companies, and then as well as of course, at SB g being one of their portfolio companies, you know, tying in investors' objectives with companies vision and mission. So yeah, I think that's, that's been an interesting journey. , very much so. So yeah, we, we might, we have time.
[00:06:23] We'll come back to that r o I piece and how you crack that code. I'm cr I'm, I'm intrigued. So at SB Energy. So, you know, tell us a little bit about the makeup of the workforce, cuz it's quite interesting cause I think there's thousands of contractors and then there's the overall brain of the organiz.
[00:06:40] Yes. So this is a renewable energy development business, and the way it works is that we own and we operate all the large scale utility solar power plants. Okay. But we outsource most of the construction and most of the operation. So what that does is our agencies that we outsource, these two have to hire thousands of employees at any point of time at our sites because these, these run in hundreds of acres of land.
[00:07:09] And similarly to operate But what's what's most interesting and dear is that we work as a small team of people who still owns most of the decision making. So we are deciding how do we wanna design this plant? We are deciding what technology to put here, we are deciding how would we get the maximum efficiency, how do we track things?
[00:07:33] We are building our apps to maximize on the efficiencies. So with all that work comes this interesting set of people who almost remotely managed these huge sites sitting here. So it's often you know, a combination of. These people who've been working on technology, having to imagine the thousands of people on the site who are going to deploy that, so, right.
[00:07:58] Yes. Fascinating. So for you and your team, so as head of people and culture how does this, you know, this dynamic, if you will show up for your role in, in the kind of work that you do? So, You know, you could say we could sort of shortlist ourselves to be responsible for the core team, which is this few hundred plus people who are designing and planning and thinking, however, I think for, for this role, you've got to keep the final product, which is the solar power project sites that you are making, owning and operating.
[00:08:37] And while you design, you know, people, pos, policies, processes, programs, thought processes, you've got to think about you know, yeah, you could do this in your own small world, but finally, how is that going to pan out when you You're not just responsible for these people, you're responsible for a wider set.
[00:08:55] Though there is a theme that is leading that by themselves. The gen agency fully own their employees. We do not own their employees, but they're part of our business. Bigger business. Right. Okay. I got it. So, so there's some, some interaction or collaboration, I would think that happens, right. As guardian of overall SB energy product and and yet they're actually doing the implementation and so on, on site.
[00:09:21] That is correct. I think our people are always operating in these two worlds which is within SP energy interacting within the few hundreds of employees, but also you know, getting those things done at the site with the agencies and with those other thousands of employees were not our. Okay.
[00:09:40] Okay. Interesting. So, so because you've got this, this group the sort of the, the, the brain, the decision makers, right? That you serve principally. . You know, something that came up when we first chatted was around talent shortage, and then when we hear a lot about this in the news, the war for talent, I mean, the noise has only gotten louder.
[00:10:01] It, it's very real for many of the companies and industries that I work with. What's, how does it show up for you? It's a pretty new world that we are in right now since the last. This, the landscape of renewables in the country has changed. Though traditionally it's been an interest-based choice to be part of this industry Now.
[00:10:24] it just makes more sense to be part of this industry. People have started connecting with the vision of making difference to the environment a lot more than it was earlier. However, we are still facing you know, talent shortages because, There's a huge amount of investment that has come into this industry.
[00:10:42] Everybody wants to grow and grow fast because you wanna make sure that you're using the policies and the advantages that it gives you. So the amount that you have at your hand to train people who've not done this work earlier is always less than what you'll want it to be. So the choice between, you know, hiring say.
[00:11:03] Early stage talent versus hiring. People who've come with experience in this industry and in this exact world is very difficult. Everybody wants to fish in the same small pond and I think it will take time for this pond to grow. So we are having to look at what Allied industries have similar.
[00:11:23] You know, skills where you could get people from and train them. However, again, this industry being a, you know, as much technology, as much brick and mortar relationships matter, your exposure to the actual physical land. Matters. And that you can't build overnight. You can't build sitting in an office.
[00:11:46] So it's going to be a struggle for some time till our talent pool expands. Yes. Well, and this idea of of branching out beyond the industry renewables that you're in to seek talent, you know, sort of be innovative, like where else could we sniff out some great people that are capable of ramping up fairly quickly in this newer area?
[00:12:09] What are some other industries that you look at Interesting. And I think that's an answer we are still figuring out. So within renewables there is, there's solar, there hydro, there's wind. Hydrogen now, which is in itself very new. But I think the first attempt should be or would be to start looking at talent from these industries with, and all of these industries are renewable, so all of them, again, are going to face a lot of growth in the coming years.
[00:12:37] So again, keeping, you know, trying to take talent from within these industries is going to be limiting very soon. But we will have to start looking at any other type of development related industries where people have got exposure to project management people and, and not software or it project management.
[00:12:59] This will have to be you know, developing something real in terms. A structure, which is operational. So I mean, those could be some industries when you look at different rules like land acquisition you know, real estate in some way. But again, the objective is so different that the way you sell and the way you own and you, the way you buy land and you, the way you get permits will be very different.
[00:13:23] But that could be another, a light industry where you could put in some effort in and maybe get people. . Right. Interesting. So, so for your purposes, so how have you des designed or developed, you know, both your, your your attraction strategy and your internal developments mobility strategy? What, what does that look like for you?
[00:13:44] Given, given Yeah. Material you operate within? Yeah, so I think from an one thing that's very important, in this changing landscape is flexible skills. we often toggle between this world, right? Do you need a jack of all trades or do you need somebody who understands one thing really well?
[00:14:05] And there is no right or wrong answer to this. But there will have to be a good mix of. Flexible skills in the organization at any point of time. And then of course, you have people who just do what they do really well. And we are consciously trying to create that mix through of course new and fresh incoming talent where people are able to wear.
[00:14:27] Another hack, which is different than theirs as and when required because again, this industry goes through a cycle. So there is a time when you're just developing your pipeline you're getting new projects, and then there is a time when you are building these projects. So the whole focus is on construction and execution and project management.
[00:14:46] And then once it's built, the whole fo focus becomes operating it, managing those assets, maximizing the revenue. These are all pretty different skills, but the, the organization's reality could be twisted and, and more say, heavier on one side at a point of time. And the next year could be all about building, for example, this year is all about just getting new pipeline.
[00:15:08] How do you plan organizations versus. Because you're hiring somebody, you're hiring them for the entire journey. You're not hiring them for a phase. So I think having those skills where people can sort of raise their hands and say, you know, the next year I would like to try this. And us being able to offer those opportunities, which is actually beneficial for, I would say, both the organization.
[00:15:33] That's how you develop leaders and the person because. gives them a sense of development. You know, it's, as I always say, I don't think it's a, it's a straight up approach to growth ever. I think it's a spiral. Yeah. And getting more lateral learning always gives you a more grounded leader.
[00:15:56] Right. I, I really like that metaphor of a spiral in terms of growth, you know, cause it's, or a squiggle, somebody said that to me the other day. I mean, it's not necessarily, you know, this upward tr trajectory. You know, you might need to zig-zag laterally a little bit in sideways in order to, to continue growing and figure out, you know, what is the next step.
[00:16:17] Correct. Then our learning, I mean, even when I think about. What does growth mean for an organization like ours, which in itself is growing, but it's always going to remain a few hundreds in terms of number of people. How do you give people a sense of growth because. Today it's very clear. It is not about growing within an organization that is important.
[00:16:39] It is about you growing as a professional. And I think it's very important for organizations to define growth within their companies because if you say that it is growing from one title to another. Then that is what is growth for the whole company, and that's what you celebrate. If you define growth and you talk about growth, and again, this touches the culture piece, but if it is about, you know, We did something new this year, or you did something new this year, or you learn, you stepped into an area and you celebrate somebody stepping into an area that they've not stepped into earlier, then that becomes growth.
[00:17:15] Mm-hmm. . And I believe that is the only sustainable way because again, having worked. in different industries, the levels are always limited. You will always need to keep introducing new levels. And then after a point of time, they stop meaning much what changes from one level to another, one title to another.
[00:17:33] But if the sense of growth is about what are you learning new, and if you're able to define that, if you were able to drive that, then you feel as an owner of your learning and your growth within an organization. And the organization's job is to provide you avenues. To explore that, and that becomes then a symbiotic relationship.
[00:17:54] Mm-hmm. . Yeah. It's, I, what struck me there was this idea of, you know, looking culturally at, at development and how people are, how you offer growth opportunities, it's, well, how, what kind of growth do you celebrate? You know, is there a tolerance for, you know, an an encouragement of errors within reason right?
[00:18:15] Of, of, of some smart risk taking so that people can. That's some of what came up for me. Something you'd mentioned to me in our earlier conversation too, was this idea that, you know, you started to get at it with, there's, there's only so many. Upper level titles available, right? Like I, the further you go up, it really is a per pyramid.
[00:18:33] There's fewer absolutely. Top level titles and, and yet that there, there can still be this mm, this desire or this perceived need to chase those titles. You mentioned the, this idea of needing to de-link titles from growth. Can you elaborate on that a bit? Yes, and this is something that I think I've.
[00:18:55] Thinking about while running or talking with my mentors or even just bouncing this off with my CEOs that, you know, I wanna, I wanna create a system where performance is not about levels and it's not about the past, it's more about the future, any performance, conversation, and growth is not about levels and titles.
[00:19:15] and that can happen throughout the year. You don't need to wait. Oh, you've grown into a title once a year. That's not how growth happens. Think about your child. They don't wear for wait for the next birthday to grow taller. So, it's, I, it's, I think the way we celebrate milestones in, in your, in our child's life and along with that as ourselves esp in our parenthood I think similarly organizations should be celebrating.
[00:19:45] and connecting growth to what you wanna do. So Lisa, if you were to define, if I was to ask you what do you wanna do in the next one year or six months? Let's not make it five year plan. I think that world is a passe now, but what do you wanna do in six months, in one year when what you say will be very different than me?
[00:20:04] Yes, but if we work in the same organization, should we be fed the same development plan? No. So it's a lot about personalization for me, and that's when it starts making sense to you. Am I, am I asking And you may say, I have never thought about it. I don't know. Can you help me come up with it?
[00:20:21] Absolutely. You know, asking you some right questions will help you define what do you want? Two rather than become in the next one or two years or six months. And then sort of linking that to how does an organization, an organization, comprises of the manager, not just hr, everyone around you, how do you work with them and how do the organization give you opportunities?
[00:20:47] To pick up those skills. So, flexible skills, right? An organization is always hiring. So one big opportunity is internal hiring. Can I give somebody a role, which I would otherwise go outside for because it matches with their growth plan. . can I afford job rotations? Because again, I, I do know not every organization can afford job rotations, but y you always have that 10% extra bandwidth to take on something new.
[00:21:14] Action learning programs or, again, a great way of getting into an area which you have never gotten to. You just. Learn more about and you're solving a, you know, a good business problem. Of course outside learning courses and all of that remains an, an avenue as well. And then you, you, you are learning through this.
[00:21:33] You, you think you're building a new skill and you can continuously test yourself and your development in that area through peer feedback. You could ask people around you five specific questions. So if I want to become better, , you know, commanding a presence in the room. Any five people that I trust within the organization, I could go ask them, did you notice a difference from last time to this time?
[00:21:54] Mm-hmm. , do you think I was speaking more eye to eye? And that feedback is golden. You develop mentors through stat system within the organization, and I think you. By the end of six months, if you said that, I think I feel much more confident being the center of attention in a room which I wasn't six months back.
[00:22:16] That's growth for me and that's what I will carry with me within or outside, is B Energy. A title remains and ends at ESP energy. Right? So, so, so how do you. People in your broader organization though, because this is a, it's, it's a, it's a shift for many people, right? Because that, that desire, that perceived you know, credibility that comes with title is very attractive.
[00:22:45] And, and this, this, this desire to atta attain it is built in very early culturally I'd, I'd say. So how, how do you help your workforce embrace this idea of growth as a continuous. Spiral, what have you put put in place to help with that? So, small things, and this is not a big strategy. This is a small cultural nuance, I would say.
[00:23:12] So we talk about the role that you do instead of the title that you come with. We try not to talk about titles in almost all internal organizational matters. , you're part of the development team. That's how people introduce themselves. They don't say, I'm vice president, or I'm director, or I'm senior director.
[00:23:32] And you see that when others do it and leadership lives with it. Second, we don't publicly announce and celebrate promotions. Mm-hmm. , we publicly announce and celebrate values champions, but we do not publicly announce and celebrate. And that's a deliberate call. There have been questions that we've received saying, Hey, you know, why are we keeping it secret?
[00:23:54] it's not secretive. Your child goes from third grade to fourth grade. You don't celebrate that and you don't sort of send in people an email about that. It's, it's about you know, your achievements, your stepping into a problem and solving it with the team and that that's what you celebrate if you're celebrating values of the company and people who are living them to their fullest.
[00:24:16] we do not have a career journey, and that's title because career is title anywhere publicly published in the whole company. There is not a staircase anywhere that is in front of you that, hey, you need to climb this. Again even while hiring, we stress upon the same thing that, you know, what's your level?
[00:24:38] You know, HR knows. and after that it stops mattering. In this company it's just about, and, and it's a small team, so everybody understands that there isn't really not a difference between a level and another. So there's not a lot of hierarchy created. Can this live and breathe in a big organization? Still to still a lot more to think about.
[00:25:01] I think still a lot more, more design. Testing it in a smaller organization, I think over the last six years, four years, specifically in s p Energy. . I think the craziness about titles has absolutely come down. We haven't, because when people come from other organizations, you come with the frenzy. But coming here, you start feeling that there is, are all our processes and policies don't have any level differentiations.
[00:25:32] You go go in the same flight, you stay in the same hotel as everybody else does. So if you take the whole fun away, From a title it stops being fun, right? It's, it's really, I think in, there's a lot of food for thought here, listeners isn't there because, you know, I, I can't count the number of times I've been asked by private clients and, and the talent trust and, and so on, and bought partner clients saying, you know, we, we wanna tackle this idea of career journey.
[00:26:03] And you called it a stair. and so that people can see, you know, what is the path. And, and I think that, you know, can be a place to start in some cases, right? Particularly in quite large organizations where you've got multiple incumbent groups, you know, so that are looking to sort of understand like, how do I move, you know, and grow?
[00:26:23] Is there a set pathway? But I, I think this is really challenging the notion that, that that's the only way to do it, right? I mean, . What if you went completely flat, as you said, take the fun out of the title. Like that's associated with it. It's not about prestige. I think organizations have moved away from performance ratings.
[00:26:43] It's exactly the same reason. Yes. You don't want people to think of themselves, oh, I belong in this box. And all you're doing is trying to get from that box to another box. And you, that's where empathy suffers. That's where the whole teamwork suffers at times. Because then you are only working with yourself in mind.
[00:27:05] And yes, I, again, wouldn't say that this is a tried and tested model. This is a, this is a hypothesis we are trying to work with. This is an experiment that we are trying to do because again, we don't have any ratings. Nobody sort of talks about ratings. All we do is a talent calibration discussion. And the team or an individual gets to hear what is it that they did awesome and what can they do more next year.
[00:27:32] And it's all about, okay, I'm geared up to do this at times when you want to give constructive feedback. I've had to. , you know, help managers and train them so that people get the message, because there, there is no rating. So you're not sort of, you know, getting that as an explanatory tool by itself.
[00:27:53] But decision making needs you know, a structure. If, if no, if we don't have a structure in the organization, decision making could be inefficient. So it's a, it's a mix of roles instead of titles, is what I would say to create that efficiency. Yes. Interesting. Okay. Okay. Yeah, and I, I appreciate the, the peak behind, you know, the curtains, so to speak around, without ratings, the focus turns to.
[00:28:19] you know, you there, there's still, there's still a place to have clear what I call clear and kind conversations, right? It's, it's not about not helping people understand what's needed. You know, helping them clarify expectations and move towards those. We don't drop that just cuz there's no rating, but the focus is more on the conversation and more on facilitating that, that growth in performance is what I'm hearing.
[00:28:43] Absolutely. And we've, we've seen that. . I mean, these things reflect, right? You are, you're doing your exit interviews, you are, you're doing your employee surveys, you're doing different types of touchpoints and people don't think that they're not appreciated. That is one thing that absolutely gets avoided with something like this because it's about them versus them in comparison to others.
[00:29:07] Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. . Okay. So another piece that I wanted to, to dig into a little bit with you, DJA before we, we wrap is the onboarding program that you have in place. Cuz I know it's a source of pride for you and I was hoping you could tell us a bit more about it. Yes. So something that I would proudly say is that I more than not hear from our new hire.
[00:29:33] This is the best onboarding they've been through in their lives. And of course that does give me a lot of sense of pride because as an organization we give them an environment where they feel nurtured and they feel happy as they come in. And I. , it's very important because somehow the start a lot of time decides what path you are on within the organization.
[00:29:59] And that became a bigger focus during Covid because we ended up hiring people all across the country and people kept feeling more and more detached. And that was the case, not only with us everyone, so that that was a usual problem. and we did an employee touchpoint survey. And again, it to, you know, the first thing that people said was, I don't feel connected.
[00:30:25] Or there is more can, can we have more? Information sharing. Can there be more transparency or a new hire said you know, a lot of times people don't put on videos and you don't wanna command that. But then I'm new. I don't know who am I talking to? So can can you do something about it? So, you know, th these were the things that we kept hearing.
[00:30:44] Again, not new only and not applicable to SP energy only. So what we did is we put together this program. Usually a new hire is anxious, no matter which role they're coming into. We start sort of talking to them two weeks in advance and we have one of the persons in the recruitment team be in touch with them and become sort of their hand holding person for the first three months.
[00:31:10] The people, the new hires get their laptops configured and everything set with their email IDs created a few days before their actual start date. So, you know, they can actually go into the intranet of the company and start reading about how is the company structured? What are different policies, program, or what's new?
[00:31:30] So when you actually come in, you don't feel like, oh my God, I don't know anything about this place. So you feel a little bit more familiar remotely. From that they day minus one before they start, they get a list of their first two weeks meetings, which are already planned and are on their calendars.
[00:31:47] Mm-hmm. small tactical things, but that again makes them feel like I don't have to find my way through. They've thought somebody else has thought out this. And these are my important stakeholders because otherwise you are left looking for figuring out who are the important stakeholders that you should be connecting with.
[00:32:06] Yes. You have access to all the right resources technologically so that you know, you have the, the. Accessible. If somebody's talking about that or referring, you know, go to that folder usually that has all our company information and you're like, okay, let me get access to it. And remotely again, all of this becomes personality driven.
[00:32:27] There are some people who reach out and then there are some who will not. Right? So we make these things a little bit more, less of a surprise, and then we connect with the new hire. On their fifth day of start, and then their fourth week of start, and then the third month. So we call it a five, four three program.
[00:32:45] At the end of fifth day, it's really about, Hey, is your laptop set up? You know, do you know your team and your important stakeholders? Have you enrolled in your benefits? Is your 401K done? Just the basics. the fourth week gets more meatier, which is now you've spent a month and they know that they have this call with you again at the beginning itself.
[00:33:04] So this is really a, a coffee chat where it's a lot more about, you know, are you trying to un are you starting to understand what's your role and how are you going to make an impact here? And is this what the le their leader or with the somebody else? It's with the, it's with, it's us doing it as HR team.
[00:33:21] Okay. Because then you, you've sort of been with them. Since at least two weeks before start. So they know that they got you here, they've been with you through that journey, and you can stay yourself. You're not sort of, changing a lens. The lens remains the same. It's the same person I'm talking to.
[00:33:38] So you know, they are my a partner on my new journey. You don't feel alone. How establishes HR as the partner? Ongoing. It really creates. The beginning of a beautiful partnership ongoing, I would think. Ongoing. Yes. So, and, and that actually you're absolutely right because after we do the fourth week connect and third month is a lot more, third month is about, you know, do you have, do you have goals?
[00:34:03] Do you know what you're supposed to be like, what's make going? What's the definition of success here for your. Do you think, you know, your team has accepted you well, and these are questions which are not easy to write down, and hence it's a one-on-one, sort of either a meeting if somebody's in person or if you're remote, it's over zoom, right?
[00:34:23] But you know, do you think the values of the company resonate with. Is there anything like how, what is, how do you feel the team's culture around you? And this is not just about understanding where the new hire is, but it gives us such crucial feedback about the culture of the team. Absolutely. And I would say it's sometimes it's more valuable to me than I employ survey on how a new hire experiences us as a company.
[00:34:50] If they experience you well, people are, and they're their best selves to you. If you don't experience the team well, then clearly the people are not in the right place. So they're not happy. And there's something else you know, that's going on. Need to double click on. So, they've given us feedback on so many things, which we've been able to implement quickly and, you know, get back to them and said, you know, see this has changed.
[00:35:15] Yes. And I think very agile in, in response. Agile, yes. Mm-hmm. , if you don't, yeah. I mean, I was just reading, I think it was one of your podcasts, Lisa said that there is no use collecting opinions if you can't do anything about it. And that's the loop that we definitely wanna break. and it's people after six months, one year, they still will reach out to that partner on their journey if there's anything happening around them that they won't talk about.
[00:35:42] So you al almost sort of becoming their. Joining at SBE partner through this catch up. Well, and it's, you know, it, it's around the feedback loop, you know, and, and around ensuring that we've got ways to tap into how people are feeling beyond just a, a typical survey, right? Because those can be so impersonal and anonymous, not unused, not not useless by any means, but this is adding a whole other I don't know, layer to it, if you will.
[00:36:12] And you know, for listeners that, you know, may have had an initial reaction going, oh my God, I can't have my, my HR team's not big enough or equipped enough to, to be doing these kinds of follow-ups. If you think about it though, like I think, I think it might be worth sizing it and sort of saying, well, how many people are we actually onboarding in the first place?
[00:36:31] And how many conversations would this actually be and what's the potential payoff, the r o ROI that we. You know, experience as a result. And I think it would be invaluable really, in terms of, in terms of positioning, you know, hr and their value and, and establishing trust that can, you know, if that person comes in, even if they're not a leader yet, they might be down the road and, you know, you want to be able to, to work with them very , very easily.
[00:37:03] Well, that ease can be helped if there's already that preexisting trust and relationship. It's invaluable. That's the only word, Lisa, I would say. And in addition to all this, we do the survey anyways. So you get a survey after you've had your chat, you get a survey. Yes. And if you then feel like talking about something, you can say it there.
[00:37:26] but the excerpts that we get out of this are useful for the team leader. So if, if a team leader has hired five people in their team over a quarter, we do a debriefing with them saying, you know, and we don't have to take names, but this is how the, the new hires have been experiencing your team. in the organization, and it's again, so valuable to them to hear about this and be able to, to tweak certain things.
[00:37:53] We've made a lot of changes because of these surveys. I would say more, more changes because of this than the the annual employee surveys. Oh yeah, absolutely. And, and I think it's, it's all about creating that sense of belonging. Because when we do a great job from day one, right? That, you know, and we show people, we've got you, okay, we see you, we're here for you.
[00:38:17] They're going to weather the bumps that happen because, because work life is imperfect and there are lots of zags and bumps and peaks and valleys and you know, people are more likely not to, not to give up too soon if they feel. , they're going to be able to navigate through those tougher spots. And there's a trust that gets established that Yeah.
[00:38:41] You know, I, I contributed in terms of my views and the company took it in, and that's something about it. This means the next time I don't like something, I don't need to quit. I can talk about this. Yes. And it, it can make a change. Yes. It goes to retention as well. Absolutely. Wonderful.
[00:39:02] Well, we are, we are at, at the end of our chat together. Just one more quick question for you, Adja. Absolutely. So when you think about your career and you know, you've done some really interesting, interesting things from, you know, engineering all the way through today, what would you say has been the biggest lesson, career lesson for you?
[00:39:22] I think what I would consider an enlightenment to me is do not get stuck with your thoughts and ideas and think that they are the only right way ahead. There have been more number of times that I think. I have done well and there has been results that I'm proud of when I have tweaked my thoughts with inputs.
[00:39:47] And yesterday we were having a talk on embracing equity another guest speaker you know, a leader from another organization. And I think it resonated with theirs as well. And she, another leader said, It's patience, have patience, and it sort of manifests itself in different ways, which is be open to taking your ideas from other people around what you think is an ideal way ahead, right?
[00:40:13] And you will make it foolproof to an extent that you didn't imagine, or you could have never done yourself. So my biggest learning is to not give too much weight to my first. . Right. Be open to inputs and, and it's such a relief though, too, to realize it doesn't have to be all up to us. You know? It, it's, yeah.
[00:40:33] Yeah. Fascinating. And it, it never, a leader is never supposed to be Right all the time. Mm-hmm. , it is about taking in as many inputs because you have access to that network, which is, which is what comes becoming a leader. But use that network. Use that. To get as many opinions, get as many thoughts, and you'll see your ideas fortified with many more ingredients, and it has come up as something which will actually win.
[00:41:00] So fortifying your ideas with others inputs is very important. Agreed. Great. Great point to end on. Thank you so much. This has been a really great conversation. I I really appreciate you coming on the. Thank you for having me. It was awesome chatting with you. Thank you.
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