[00:00:00] The number one challenge I see for talent leaders is getting swept up in what I call the reaction bandaid vortex. This is the place where you're feeling unclear, stuck, uninspired, and transactional. Your confidence may have taken a hit. You don't have time to plan, create, or strategize. You're simply surviving, slapping band-aid solutions on the problems you encount.
[00:01:14] It doesn't have to be this way. The solution lies in deciding to be more intentional. It means you need to set yourself up with the necessary supports and community so that you get clarity on what you want and become consistent and persistent in your pursuit of it. , this is where I come in. I believe talent leaders have enormous potential to make organizations better.
[00:01:37] When you are properly supported, then you in turn will cultivate an employee experience that makes your organization stand out. Whether you're ready to work with a coach
[00:01:48] or a talent management thought partner, or you want to enroll in one of my group programs, I'd be delighted to speak with you about your needs and wants.
[00:01:56] Visit my website, green apple consulting.ca and click on work with us to learn more. Thank you. How well do you and your team understand your client's business? How much importance do you place on business acumen as a core HR and talent professional competency? In today's episode, my guest makes the case for ensuring that business acumen is a fundamental skill amongst people, professionals. My guest is Nathan Daley.
[00:02:29] Nathan is a co-founder and chief people officer of Nth Venture. His career spans roles of progressive responsibility and leadership at Raytheon, Honeywell, Microsoft, and life person. He holds a master's degree in labor relations in HR and an executive mba. . Nathan is also active in community service. He currently serves on the board of directors of Operation Cigars for Warriors.
[00:02:52] He loves to ride his Indian motorcycle and is a registered lobbyist for the Arizona Modified Motorcycle Association. I know you will find this episode fascinating as it gives us a look behind the curtains at a truly non-traditional company environment. Thanks for listening.
[00:03:09] Hello and welcome back to Talent Management Teresa. I'm your host, Lisa Mitchell, and today I'm joined by my guest Nathan Daley. Nathan is the Chief people officer and co-founder of Nth Adventure. And he's been there for about a year and a half and has a whole lot to share with us today. Welcome to the show, Nathan.
[00:03:31] Thanks, Lisa. It's great to be here. So let's start by having you share a little bit. , your career journey and how you wound up at a venture and what you do there? Sure. So my career spans about 22 years. The majority of it in what you think of as traditional hr. Primarily generalist and labor relations roles.
[00:03:55] Bit of international work as well, a couple years in general management roles. I'll just give you the, the quick progression and then, you know, if there's something you want to drill down into, I'm happy to do that. So I I went to Michigan State to get my labor relations and HR master's degree.
[00:04:10] Started out you know, interning wound up with a, a company called Raytheon. Maybe some people have heard of. Big defense contractor. I went into an HR leadership development program there and came out of that and, and basically was in the labor space for, for a while. And then international hr, I left there about, after about five years, went briefly to a company called Fisher Scientific.
[00:04:32] And I did staffing. I didn't, didn't stay there long. Went to Honeywell where I stayed about six years. I started out in New Jersey working on a site closure there, and then I moved out to Phoenix and I ran to repair and overhaul shops, and then I went into supply chain. I got my exec MBA at Arizona State University and.
[00:04:51] When I graduated, I decided to change industries and go in a different direction with my career. So I wound up going to join Microsoft, moved up to Seattle. I was there about eight years seven, eight years with, with Microsoft. And then I left and went to a company called Live Person. That does basically, you can think of it as like,
[00:05:09] call center automation, chatbots, like the early sort of stages of generative ai, machine learning, stuff like that. I was there for about two years or so, and I left in the late fall of 21 mid fall of 21. And then got together with a few folks and we founded what would become the, the venture studio that we're in today.
[00:05:28] We started. , you know, having some idea of kind of what we wanted to build and it became a venture studio. So that's the really quick and. Story of my career. Awesome. So crisscrossing the US and . Yeah, and, and internationally too. One of the great experiences early in my career, I got to spend about nine months in Saudi Arabia.
[00:05:48] That was in 2001. So I was actually there for nine 11. So that was an extra bonus to the experience if you, if you will. Very, very, you know, foundational, formative in terms of of my career that, that experience. So yeah, ab absolutely. Oh my goodness. Well, just, just moving, you know, locations and, and you know, seeing how, how different geo geograph geographies can really kind of uhhuh
[00:06:12] Influence culture and, and how people see the world. So, really, really fascinating. So with Enth Venture being a venture studio mm-hmm. , can you tell us a little more about what that, that's all about? Sure. Yeah. I know it's a term that most people aren't familiar with and that's Okay. . What they probably are more familiar with is the idea of an incubator or an accelerator which those are, you know, fairly well known terms.
[00:06:34] Mm-hmm. we're a little bit different when it comes to other venture studios as well, so I'll, I'll, it's probably a little bit easier to explain what we're not and, and back into what we are. Okay. So with an incubator and an accelerator, and a lot of times Adventure studio founders or companies are coming to take advantage of.
[00:06:51] those institutions offer in terms of growing their company, scaling to the next level, getting access to capital and great advice and a bunch of other things. All that stuff is still true. What's different about us is we create all the ideas for the businesses ourselves. So far, we have not brought in any businesses from the outside.
[00:07:10] We, we flirted with the idea once decided not to pursue it. We may flirt with the idea again, but for the time, Every business we create is an invention of the studio. We stand that business up, and then we attract the right talent to take the kernel of the idea that we've created and grow that into a business and without fail.
[00:07:33] The idea that we have evolved significantly when we bring in people who are experts in their field and industry and have, you know, that kind of experience. We, we know enough to be dangerous and, and identify what good ideas might be, and then they take on a life of their own when you get the right talent built around them.
[00:07:48] So that's, that's one thing that differentiates instead of venture as a venture studio. The other is sort of philosophical and, and here's another place where it may, it's gonna feel different or, or unusual to people. A lot of times the cost of participating in an incubator or an accelerator is giving up a significant portion of your cap table to investors or to the folks who run those programs.
[00:08:12] One thing that's different about us is since we're building and growing these things from the inside we. Don't we have, we have different requirements is a, a good way to put it. So we, we'll talk about ownership in a minute, but one of the big things that we believe is that we want a significant portion of the ownership of the companies that we build to belong to the employees.
[00:08:31] So 50% of the cap table without fail is devoted to employee ownership and takes its stake. And then there's a little bit left in. . And then the way we capitalize the company is we go out and sell shares of the studio's stake to outside investors and get the, the ball rolling. And then over time there's other, there are vehicles that can come into play in terms of how financing happens, but that's the basics of how things get going.
[00:08:55] So, we, we don't We aren't intending to be sort of the the corporate overload of the companies that we create. We want to be their partners. So we wind up, if everything works out well, having about an equal equity stake with the president of the, of the business and end after we sell down our share of the cap table to initially get them capitalized.
[00:09:15] So that's one thing that's. And then the other philosophical things I can lay out for you quickly. So going back to that idea of ownership, when we got together to found the company we were really more interested in, in innovating or or radically approaching the nature of work itself. So one of the things that I think can be unsatisfying about working in the corporate world is that.
[00:09:39] You don't have a ton of ownership in the business. You may get some options, you may get some RSUs, things like that, but you don't have a an ownership stake. And it causes people to behave differently when they feel a sense of ownership for the way the business works. So that's one of the reasons we run the equity portion of, of things the way that we do.
[00:09:57] And, and it's. Principle we won't deviate from. So our, our purpose, the purpose of the, the studio that we state, you know, front and center and all our job descriptions on the website and all that, is to set talented people free through the power of ownership. So we believe that's really powerful and it sort of defines our culture.
[00:10:14] The second thing that we do that's pretty unusual, and again, this is about, you know, innovating around the work relationship is instead of traditional, what you can think of as 19th and maybe 20th century compensation models, we pay people essentially with a share of profit as opposed to a traditional salary.
[00:10:32] So what's great about this is, is twofold. Maybe there's more than that. For sure. There's two things. One is that for a typical startup, what you see is you see what they call the J curve, which is a sort of extended initial period of losing money, burning a lot of cash and then eventually you have an up an upswing.
[00:10:49] So we flatten and shorten that J curve by only paying, essentially only paying people cash when the business generates a profit. So you have to bootstrap pretty fast if you wanna earn some great motivational activity there. It also eliminates a lot of the BS around normal comp issues. So it can be a little bit tricky to get right, but what's great about it is that your, the upside for your cash comp is unlimited.
[00:11:12] And the equity side you know, as the company grows in value, will also appreciate as well. We have 10 year vests on RSUs, so that's the, instead of to create long-term value. And then on the short-term value side nobody succeeds unless everybody succeeds and you're all getting a piece of the profits as opposed to a market wage, so that that can be a bit of a double-edged sword.
[00:11:32] But that th those two things sort of defined how we started the studio. And then we realized as we were building these businesses, what, what we were essentially doing was creating a an infrastructure, an environment, an ecosystem to create value, to grow businesses within and provide services to them as, as they grow.
[00:11:50] And. Benefit from that. They get benefit from that. The president and their team can focus almost entirely. Their business while we take care of a lot of the, what you'd call sort of, I think about as ancillary or back office or support system, so hr, it, finance, accounting, marketing, et cetera. So the studio provides those services to the businesses that we grow, so they can be laser-focused on the customer, the product service that they're offering.
[00:12:19] So there's a lot in there. So let me, let me pause. Sure. So, so really, really interesting and I, and I appreciate the, you know, some level of detail here because I think for many listeners they're gonna be like, what, what, what is this person of yeah. So, so listeners, I do encourage you to, to look up the episode with Jenny Deno as well from ER's Ventures, because now it's not a venture studio so much, but it, it's more of I can't do it justice, but it's it's an organization that supports various venture startups.
[00:12:46] And they have, like, what's similar here is that they provide kind of like a shared services infrastructure. Mm-hmm. operation team they call it, to work with those founders and those teams who are at different points in their journey in terms of maturity around, you know, the support they need and everything.
[00:13:01] So this was quite a fascinating model right there. So, so when you look at this very you know, intentional and unique com structure, ownership structure mm-hmm. , what, so what behaviors does it drive? Well, there's certainly, there's accountability. I mean, it, it's gonna be obvious to everybody that if the business is not performing, it affects them personally.
[00:13:23] So there's really, what we call it, radical incentive alignment, or it's really clear motivation, accountability to you. Everybody has to play a part in making the business successful. And it's obvious when that's not happening. So, Yes, you can have OKRs or you know, whatever else you want that defines success from a functional perspective or what have you.
[00:13:43] And that stuff is important. I'm not, I'm not minimizing that, but the bottom line is everyone's mentality has to be entrepreneurial. Everyone's mentality has to be an ownership mentality or. Success isn't, isn't possible. It also reinforces collaboration. Cause you're no longer fighting over turf ev everybody's got a piece of the same pie.
[00:14:03] And it's, it's not like a zero sum game in a lot of organizations where there's a finite pool of resources and there's a, you know, a power struggle. People are jockeying for position to get their share of what's out there, that, that's eliminated. We're really clear about our professional values as well.
[00:14:17] I talked about our purpose, but instead of having you, 11 or 12 or 13 like some companies are, something that's really big and complicated. We decided to pick three, the three that we thought were really important, that would sort of define. Behavioral traits and professional traits, and we picked integrity, discipline, and acumen.
[00:14:36] And we define those, you know, pretty succinctly. One of the things I learned about culture over the years is if employees can't tell you the mission statement and the professional values, they're probably not very much good. And it's a heck of a lot easier to. Pick three things and do them well than to pick 10 and struggle or you know, have to invest a lot of time and energy to link them to everything gets pretty complicated.
[00:14:59] So, the, the comp model drives a lot of the right behaviors. The way the, the you know, purpose and values are framed, drive a lot of the right behaviors. And then the rest of it is are you from a personality and work style perspective, well suited to an entrepreneurial workplace, and you find that out pretty fast.
[00:15:15] So yeah. Okay. So now do you provide any pa particular type of support and so on for people that like yourself have been in more, you know, grown up in a more traditional corporate setting, and now we're coming into this, you know, really different kind of structure altogether. How, how do you help people make that transit?
[00:15:32] Yeah, well a lot, a lot of us are refugees or recovering corporate you know, employees. So we, we definitely have some idea of what it's like to work in a different environment. Some people are serial entrepreneurs. Those are great people to work with cuz they already kind of get it. But what's helpful for people who are, you know, transitioning or in recovery or whatever you wanna call it the, the studio team is there not just to provide services but in an advisory and consultative capacity.
[00:15:57] We also. From the very, very beginning of setting up these companies. In addition to hiring a president, we hire an advisory board that you kind of touched on briefly earlier, and that winds up being three to five people who have the right mix of experience, skill, subject matter, expertise, what whatever you want to call.
[00:16:16] And that often includes experience as an entrepreneur. So there's. Plus they're in a community, so they're not alone in the way you can feel like as a founder when you're starting a, a business from zero on your own. You've got peers and colleagues who are doing the same thing as you. Some of them who've already been through the studio process and have come out the other end and successful.
[00:16:36] Some of them are going through the journey at the same time as you. you wait long enough, some people who are just getting started and can learn from you in addition. We learn from every business that we launch. We get feedback, we get a little smarter every time we turn the crank at, at this process of creating companies and value.
[00:16:53] Right. Interesting. Okay. So with the, the president, so, you know, you talked about when we, when we chatted about this last week was this idea that, you know, it could take a couple of months. You're tossing out a lot of ideas for companies. Like, what would, what does the market need? What could we do?
[00:17:08] Mm-hmm. . And once that sort of gets crystallized to discard a bunch of ideas and really focus on the best one, then you go out and you recruit a founder, president. Mm-hmm. . Advisory board. Yeah. Now, what is the approach you take for that? How do you find these people ? Well, you know, I, I'm a little embarrassed to say it, but the business wouldn't exist without LinkedIn.
[00:17:29] It's been pretty instrumental to our success. I'll give you a little bit of context and then I'll, I'll expand on that. So, We have basically what you can think about as a simple list of bad ideas. We go through that list and we sort of debate and discuss like, what's the market opportunity, what's the pain or challenge that we're, that we're meeting, you know, what does competition look like?
[00:17:50] What's the size of the market? All that, all that stuff. And we narrow it down and then we. Do what we call red team Blue team, which is a little bit of research pro and con to flush out the arguments or the opportunity more thoroughly. And then we write a paper. So this is a little bit Amazonian but we write basically a two to six page, what we call cohort memo, which expands out the ideas of what we're proposing to move forward with.
[00:18:14] We take that idea and we basically go. To to candidates. So we'll post for a president, we'll post for advisory board members. We'll interview them and we'll expose them to that document and say, here's what we think. , here's our, our approach to, you know, build this building, this business. What do you think?
[00:18:33] And when we get a bunch of feedback and they generally get excited or they say, eh, what about this? What about that? This won't work. You need to try that instead. So we get that feedback, we get people hooked, kind of, uh, about, you know, what's exciting about building the business. And then we bring 'em in and we start to expand that out into what we call an operating operating plan and o o P one.
[00:18:53] Or a unit plan. Sometimes terminology kind of evolves over time, but that's, that's basically what we do. Okay. Interesting. And just for listeners, just to, to give a little more information, so you made me think of it when you mentioned the, the cohort memo. Memo. So, so I think you're working on the third cohort, but in the first cohort you went through and there were four, four companies kind of created.
[00:19:14] Yeah. Right. And and then cohort two I can't remember, it's another. Another four. Yeah. And like one example was, one of them is more around online learning certifications or friendly or whatever it's called, certed. Yep. And now you can avail yourself of that. Yeah. A absolutely there, there's a network effect.
[00:19:34] Both from a talent perspective. To touch on your earlier question, one of the great things about building up this network of smart, talented people is some, everybody knows somebody. Yeah. So as we go to recruit for a business, we often get referrals from people who are like, oh, I know, I know the perfect person who's gonna be great for this.
[00:19:50] Sometimes we get organic interest and that that works out really well. So that generates a bunch of buzz there. I'll give you a quick rundown on cohort one and two so you get a sense for that. And then we'll talk a little bit about. Network effect between the companies. Sure. So cohort one, like I said, we started with four C.
[00:20:07] Three of them survived. Two are thriving. One is in what we'd kind of call a reboot mode. So very quickly, they're oddly, which is a full service audiobook and podcast production company merchant boxes, which is bespoke packaging, design and brokerage. And then falconer, which is you can think of it as capital formation advisory.
[00:20:26] So raising money for startups. Doing deals like m and a, that sort of thing. That Falconer is the one that's in a little bit of reboot. There was another real estate based one that didn't work out. So not, not every business makes it, I don't want to give the impression that we're batting a thousand here cuz we're not.
[00:20:41] Right. Cohort two, we have sabertooth, which is boutique tech recruiting really interesting business. We have asserted that you touched on earlier, which is a mobile first online learning, particularly for skill. Work and maybe lower or unskilled work. So it's a part of the market that isn't well served by modern learning platforms.
[00:21:00] Right? We have a company called Sentient that's focused on the development of ML and AI solutions for small and medium enterprises. And then there's another company called PR React. we're, we're working on getting that launched. It's a little behind the other parts of cohort two right now. But it's, it's exciting that that's all about like reputation management, actionable intelligence around what's happening in media and Whether social or traditional media we see, we see some interesting opportunity in that space as well.
[00:21:28] Those are the core one and two businesses. They are all able to expose one another's customers to the different portfolio businesses, so very o and sometimes they're customers of each other. So for example, the guy who's leading our boutique recruitment business is gonna start a podcast. Not unlike this one.
[00:21:46] He's gonna talk about talent issues and I know there's a bunch of 'em out there, but he's already got a partnership that's right there. You mentioned Certed. One of the things we're continually working on improving is our onboarding. So we will probably develop a mobile first onboarding experience through Certed for Nth.
[00:22:01] They're already piloting doing that for other companies. For onboarding, for skills development, for, you know, employment screening, assessment for job related skills. So the, the, the network effect is fantastic, both from a talent perspective and from a business opportunity perspective. Yeah, it's really that, that ecosystem.
[00:22:20] Yeah, that's right. You're creating that, that, that your own kind of , serve yourself kind of approach, really? Yeah. Yeah. That, that's, that's right. So we, we all get to benefit from one another's successes and learn from one another's failures which is useful. . Right. So for you, so Bec you know, you've got an interest, you're wearing two hats, really?
[00:22:39] Probably more than that, but like mm-hmm. as a, as a founder. Yeah. I think you said you were employee number four. Yes. And, and then as the chief people officer, so you've got this responsibility to support all of these different ventures and so on and in, you know, the areas of, of HR and talent.
[00:22:55] Mm-hmm. sports. So what does a day in the life of Nathan look like?
[00:23:00] it depends on, on what, what's happening on any particular day. But I, I can tell you I spend probably 25 to 30% of my time thinking about recruiting talent for the businesses. Mm-hmm. , I have a little bit of extra help now that we have a boutique recruiting shop and they've been really useful to us.
[00:23:17] I spend probably another third of my. Thinking about setting up and scaling the new businesses that we're working on. And the rest of it is coaching and helping the, the folks who are going through the, the cohort process, the studio process, get their business operationalized and growing. And oh, by the way, we're kind of running the studio.
[00:23:36] One of the things I do is look after our shared services. So we have like a core productivity tech stack and a couple of other things. Our H r I s, our cap table management system. So we provide those services and then we bill back the units when they're mature enough. So I look after the invoicing for that in QuickBooks and a couple of other things.
[00:23:54] So there, it's, it's a real, it's a, there's a lot going on. I mean, particular day things can, things can change, but I think those are the big buckets of a. . Yeah. Really, really interesting. So when you think about this, this context being very, very different in, in many ways, but I'm sure there's overlaps too, but with that traditional HR upbringing that you had for the folks listening who, who can't relate the same to, to where you are now, can you extrapolate kind of some key takeaways like a re you know, from this entrepreneurial context that would be useful back into corporate traditional.
[00:24:30] World. Sure. I mean, I think that there, there's more in common than people may you know, think. So. One of the things that's key to success is business acumen. And the, the same things that are gonna make you a successful HR or talent professional are, are often the ones that are gonna make you successful here.
[00:24:47] Maybe the way you operate will be different. The culture you're in will be different. The structure, hierarchy, et cetera, will be different. But business acumen's a big one. If you, don't have that context, it's gonna be difficult for you to think outside the more sort of byzantine process and systems, heavy environments that a lot of us.
[00:25:07] Grew up in operating, I think a problem. So an orientation or affinity for problem solving helps you a ton too. No matter how good at it you are without the business context, it's it's challenging, but that affinity for problem solving is great. And then the ability to context switch. So we talked before about moving from kind of thing to thing you know, as, as seamlessly as possible, it.
[00:25:28] Not always easy. I'm not perfect at it. But you need the ability to be able to shift what your, your attention is focused on fairly rapidly. Manage your time well as you do that so that you don't get bogged down in anything and that you're, you're keeping all the plates spinning. I think this some of the big ones though.
[00:25:46] If you can get those things right in either environment, I think you're gonna, you know, stand out from the crowd. Certain. It, it doesn't hurt if you've had experience building something new within a corporate environment or the way I learned was shutting things down, like closing a plant or offshoring manufacturing operations to Malaysia or Mexico or the Czech Republic or you know, implementing any big major change like e R P or the Toyota Production System lien, whatever, you know, that you call, they call it at your place.
[00:26:17] If you've done any of those things or you've been on a special assignment where they said this business is on fire, we need to go turn it around. We want you to go fix it. We're gonna go negotiate this big labor contract, and if it doesn't succeed, there's gonna be a stripe. I, if you've had the experience of doing that, Those kinds of things.
[00:26:35] It prepares you well for this kind of environment or, you know, I think, you know, makes you even more effective in the, in the corporate environment you live in. You may get bored quicker if you, if you become an adrenaline junkie like I did, moving around and doing this kind of work. Yeah. Well, I, I, you know what, to be honest, , actually, I think a lot, a lot of us with the, this background in this, in this arena of HR and talent do.
[00:27:00] Get bored, right. That there's, there's a bit of a shelf life because I also uhhuh that, you know, I've made some big career switches over time and it's because I get to a point where I'm saturated and I need something new. I need to build mm-hmm. and, and really push myself to the, to the, you know, just over the edge comfort-wise.
[00:27:15] So I, so I really appreciate, so I'm just gonna, you know, rewind and recap because I think, yeah. Really made some excellent points, you know, around how HR and talent leaders can add value, whether you're in a really innovative intriguing setting, like the one you are living or more traditional. So it's this business acumen that you can get from.
[00:27:35] Projects, you know, building up, shutting down, fix it assignments, startup assignments, having an affinity, enjoying problem solving, and being able to context switch. I think I got all of those. Yeah, yeah, that's right. I, I, so just to add a little bit more color on the business context, one, I, I wanna link this to the ownership mentality or entrepreneurial mentality that we've been talking about a little bit.
[00:27:56] If you think of your role as being bigger than the title or the function that you're in, like you, you have a need to understand the business as though you were the general manager, vp, you know, maybe even c e o if you, depending on the altitude and the organization you inhabit. . If you, if you're curious in that way and you're getting, you know, you're asking questions of your clients beyond, what do I need to know to get my job done?
[00:28:21] Whatever that happens to be, you're seeking to understand from their shoes desk, you know, whatever, whatever you want to call it, that is gonna make you better at your job because you're thinking more broadly. And I think the, the criticism that folks in our profession often get is, , you know, we're there to play within a very specific defined lane to solve a specific set or type of problems to do what we're told rather than be participating like as a member of a leadership team where we're thinking through solving problems together, developing a point of view on them together.
[00:28:58] If you can show up in that way, The val, your value to those folks is going to increase immensely because you're behaving like you're one of them as opposed to the the box that they see you in. And one of the comments that I you know, enjoyed the most in my career was when somebody said, you know, you don't act like you're an hr.
[00:29:16] And I said, thank you. That means I'm doing my job. . Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. And, you know, this is such a theme that keeps coming up in all, all my recent interviews for, for the show. It's around, you know, if you see yourself as a, as an order taker, a prescription fellow mm-hmm. , the party planner, the police, you know, policing policies and putting mm-hmm.
[00:29:37] down and telling people what to do and pulling your hair out cuz you can't convince them that you know, what you're trying to propose is the best thing then, then it's time to step back and, and to, and to. to, to figure out, okay, so how do I put my clients, my stakeholders at first and think, think like them, not like me, right?
[00:29:55] And use their language and think about what's gonna, what's gonna matter to them at the end of the day. So it's sense language sometimes, Nathan, I don't know if this comes up for you, but you know, a lot of the, my private client work and work in the, the talent trust is, , you know, we have our h HR talent type speak, right?
[00:30:14] Every, every, every discipline has its own lingo and you know, we can enjoy it and geek out on it together. Yet if we're bringing that too much into discussion with, you know, leaders of I don't know what, what operations, marketing, whatever it is. Right? They're, they don't care that you're gonna let them, they're gonna glaze over in a lot of cases.
[00:30:34] Yeah. Their eyes glaze over pretty fast. It's, it's, you know, what have you done for me lately? What can you do for me? One, one of the tips I, I try to give people when I'm mentoring or coaching is to. Try to get them to move to a proactive mode with you. Cuz a lot of what is painful for folks is, well, I get these problems dumped on my lap and I look at the problem and I say, well, why didn't all these things happen beforehand?
[00:30:57] And if you can get through to them to say, if you spend 40 minutes with me, before we have a problem. Instead of spending four hours or 40 hours with me after we have a problem, you're gonna find you have a much different and better experience. And I started thinking of you as a partner in that way. Then you get, you get to see a little bit more of the inside of what I was talking about before in business context.
[00:31:18] So if you can develop that kind of relationship and you can approach 'em in that kind of way I. The success is there to have. And you're right. You know, if you, you're trying to get them to drink your bath water, they're, they're not gonna like the way it tastes. Oh, God. Well, that's a metaphor, . I I don't think we want anyone drinking anyone's bath water, but Yeah.
[00:31:37] No, it's, it's, it's really, really important. You know, something else too that you had shared with me before when we were talking one-on-one was about, so you've had somebody say to geez, you. you aren't like hr and you took that as a compliment. And I, I share that with you. I, I agree. Cuz I think too often, you know, HR has gets a bad rap Right?
[00:31:56] And, and are dismissed before they have a chance to prove value. That said It's, it's nice to know when, when you've earned that partnership. You told me about a terrible, I think a terrible comment somebody said to you earlier in your career, share please. Oh, yeah. So this is, this is the phrase non-value added essential.
[00:32:13] So that was uh, characterization of a lot of the functional support for businesses, HR being a prime example of a non-value added e. Function. So in Toyota production system, lean you think about this value stream where you have, you know, raw material, parts, supplies, things moving through a value chain to an end customer who's buying the thing.
[00:32:34] Yeah. Right? So there's all these inputs into the process and people are one of the inputs. And then there's a bunch of sort of required activity that has nothing to do specifically, or, or it's ancillary to the specific production of value in the value chain. So it. Essential work, but it's non-value added in the sense that it's.
[00:32:52] Like the product, if you're not touching the product and adding value to the product or the service that's going to the customer. So, my, my function, my job, it sort of characterized our, all, all of us were sort of characterized as non-value added essential people, which can be a little bit demotivating if you take it personally, but if you, if you understand the context of the comments coming in, maybe it's not as upsetting as as it could be.
[00:33:16] that's, that was a fun one. Well, you're, you're being very gracious because I'm all about, you know, the whole Q-tip principle. Quit taking it personally. Yeah. I had to learn that the hard way myself took everything very personally from a, from an early age. That comment, though, I do think.
[00:33:30] It's not additive, right? Like it doesn't No, it doesn't motivate, incentivize anybody to, to go beyond to show that ownership mentality. To behave in, you know, with the entrepreneurial one. That's right. So it, it's it's very dismissive and I, and I think that, you know, dismissing any member of the team, everybody's got a part to play, so it's just fascinat.
[00:33:52] These bus businesses don't exist without people. Mm-hmm. . And one of the things in that same process that, that came up I think this is more like a, a wise observation from one of the trainers is he or she said the technical problems are the easy problems. The people problems are the really challenging ones.
[00:34:08] And that's very true. Or at least it has been in my experience. Like most of the time you can, you can find your way. Whatever it is, the business issue that you're trying to solve. But the people issues tend to be a little more intractable and, and, or, you know, can feel a little more catastrophic when things don't go well.
[00:34:23] So we're, we're never, we're never going away. And I think we, we add value you know, maybe not in that technical sense, but in a, in a different sense because these function organizations don't function. people. Absolutely. And without support and help from HR and talent leaders to, to navigate those tricky people issues.
[00:34:42] Right. You know, and, and you think about with, with recruitment, with talent acquisition mm-hmm. , you know, how often have I seen a situation where we hired for talent, for the technical skills, the job experience, and fired because they couldn't get along in the sandbar. Yeah. No, it's, it's ab it's absolutely true.
[00:35:01] And, and I think it's it's tough because it's intangible and to a lot of people it feels, you know, kind of, woowoo, you know, touchy feely. But it, but it's not like when it, when it, when it blows up, it, it affects everybody. Uh, And it can be really damaging, you know, to the, to the workplace, to morale.
[00:35:17] You can, you can feel toxicity when it's there. And it's not the kind of thing that you can tolerate for long because it, it ultimately, you know, hurts everybody. So yeah, it really has a strong ripple effect for sure. Right. That's often unseen and then grows . Sure, no doubt. Yeah, it's kinda almost uh, and people, people are uncomfortable you know, taking on these issues because it's not, you know, simple.
[00:35:41] It's not in their lane. It's not challenging. That's when they want to turn to you and, you know, Call in Darth Vader to to handle the problem. And that's, you don't have to be that person, but sometimes they think of you that way. Well, and it's not always about, it's not always about giving really difficult feedback where it's you know, somebody's doing something really wrong or they're being willfully negligent, you know, but I, I find, like, I just had a client send me a text earlier today because, you know, our coaching session this week was focused on doing a performance review with an employee mm-hmm.
[00:36:11] and who had rated herself as exceptional at the top, of course. And, and, and while she's extremely strong, she was the next level down, there were some areas that, you know, for her to, it's around growth more than anything. So I really challenged this leader to, instead of looking at this, is this is a corrective conversation to help them understand their self assessment is wrong.
[00:36:30] It's an opportunity to. To appreciate. There's, there's room for growth, right? And this is about how do you help this person, you know? See, like, wow, I've got a, I've got somebody who's backing me, who wants to help me grow. Yeah. And I'm already doing really excellent work. This is about elevating, right?
[00:36:49] And also about being realistic. Right. Yeah, no, that's great. If you, if you can approach those conversations with the right kind of emotional and mental judo, you can turn a conversation from confrontational into collaborative, you know, really fast. You can do that. You know, whether it's a, a difficult message you're sending in a performance conversation, a termination or a development conversation.
[00:37:11] If you frame it the right way it's great. And a lot of times it's about thinking of the other. as a fully formed and functional adult who needs to be treated respectfully, right? Who, who you are. A let me tell you about what's wrong with you. Here's the problem. You know, if, if you, if you frame it differently, then the person's gonna receive it differently.
[00:37:31] And yeah, it starts with what's going on in your head, the way you think about it. And that shows up. I don't care how good your poker face is, it shows up when you interact with the person because it's, it's your belief and it's. Your thoughts and feelings are, and speech are all absolutely linked to it.
[00:37:48] Well, I think it's, it's stating your intention like that leads Yeah, that's right. Her, what am I actually trying to do? Oh my God, it went so great. Cause I said Right. Start with your intention. My intention is here, is to, some of the work you've been doing and talk about your self assessment.
[00:38:01] Mm-hmm. and share sort of what I see as, as, you know, opportunities for growth and mm-hmm. and you. . You know, when we do that, then I think we set ourselves up for, for success because the other person can be more likely to listen. But it's interesting cuz you know, you know that, I know that, and this concept of people are not, let's not look at them as though there's something broken that needs to be fixed.
[00:38:22] But they're already creative, whole and resourceful. And yet a lot of the leaders that, that we support that is. Kind of a known one thing, right? So they really struggle with it by either putting their head in the stand and avoiding n issue or being a bit of a bull in the China shock when they do, yeah.
[00:38:39] Conversation. So I think we can really add value there with, with the, with the right coaching, with the right relationship. You can really open their eyes to, to that. If you give 'em the some guidance on how to approach a conversation, say, try thinking about it this way. Try approaching it this way.
[00:38:52] See if it doesn't feel different to you. And if you don't like it or it doesn't work, you can always go back to the old way. Things, but think, think about this or give this a try, or listen. Listen when I engage with this person and see what you notice. You know? Yes. Yeah. And it's not gonna work for everybody.
[00:39:08] Some people. Don't wanna listen that, that's okay too. Well, positioning it as you did, as, as something to try. I like to use the word experiment. Like, you don't have to marry this approach. Just give it a shot and see and like, reflect on what worked, what didn't. Awesome. Well, you know, we're coming to the end of our, of our our chat today.
[00:39:26] So I do have one more question for you. Sure. Which is, you know, given the breadth of your career and you've covered a lot of ground, literally geography and a lot of different c. , what would you say stands out for you as the most important leadership principle for HR and talent leaders? I'll say authenticity. I think it shows up as courage. You cannot be an effective partner if you are. Playing a political or organizational game where you're trying to tell somebody what you think they want to hear. I know that can be really challenging, especially in an environment like I was talking about before, where it feels like a zero sum game and there's a struggle for influence and resources and all that stuff.
[00:40:12] You're, you're not helping your client and you're not helping yourself if you're not being honest. Now, that does not mean. Crude and abrasive and anything that you can still be diplomatic and tactful and thoughtful about the way you approach advice, but it, if you, you aren't able to authentically give.
[00:40:32] what you think, you know, based on your experience and, and, and knowledge and whatnot is, is good counsel. Then you're, you're not serving e yourself or them well and I think it's a challenge for a lot of people. So a lot of times people will, will revert to the doctor. No. , you know, role where, oh, we have a policy that says this, or the losses that, and that's true, but you're way more effective when you're having a yes.
[00:40:56] And here's how conversation or you're saying like, if I understand what you're trying to achieve, here's, here's what I think the best way to get after this is. And here's the drawbacks of maybe this, this other way that consultative appro, what you cannot do though is hold back. What's important, authentic, you know, about the, your, your experience, your knowledge to that person or you're not gonna be effective.
[00:41:20] And that it's not, not just a client, but it can be your employee, it can be anybody else. It's having the, the guts you know, the backbone to speak. authentically and courageously to people, I think is a, is a big differentiator. Yeah, I agree. And I, and I think too that it comes with, with professional maturity, right?
[00:41:38] Yeah. And experience to the ability to to be authentic, to be consultative and not hold back as you put it. In situations where you might feel a bit intimidated or, or on the spot or you, you know what I mean, where maybe it might not feel as safe to, to say what you want cuz your client or your.
[00:41:55] Like it it doesn't take away the, the need though to. To speak that truth. Yeah. Well, as some wise person said, that's the only time you really can be brave is when you, you've got something to lose when you're, when you're scared and, and you know, or, or concerned about the consequences. And sometimes you're gonna say things and people are definitely not gonna like it, and you're gonna have to be okay with that as long.
[00:42:17] And hopefully what they understand is it's coming from a place of good intentions. And, and that it's. Meant to be helpful in achieving an objective you share. Well that goes right back to my whole point about making sure you're stating your intention up front, right? Yep. There you go. pe people can't read your mind unfortunately.
[00:42:36] So thank goodness . I definitely don't want them to do that. . I love it. I love it. Well, thank you so much. What a, what a, a great conversation and I so appreciate you sharing your journey with us and, and yeah, and venting. It is really, I think, fascinating stuff and people are gonna get a lot out of this.
[00:42:56] Well, I, I love it. Please do check us out online and venture.com. We're we're always raising money too, so if you're interested in investing or you know, people who are, we'd love to hear from you. And even just, you know, giving us a follow on LinkedIn, checking out what we're, what we're doing is fantastic.
[00:43:09] So thanks again for the opportunity and maybe we'll meet again. Absolutely. My pleasure. Thank you. And thanks Lisa.
