[00:00:00] You know those conferences where you go and listen to some speakers, pick up a new idea or two, maybe exchange a few business cards here and there. You get slightly inspired and refreshed, and then you go back to work and get swept back up in the busyness of it all. Never getting around to applying what you learned.
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[00:01:38] Has your L and D team ever been asked to pretty up a PowerPoint? Eek. HR can fall into the police administrative role very easily if we let it in today's episode, my guest makes a passionate case for how talented HR teams can and must add value beyond transactional and administrative work and go beyond the 15% non-negotiable risk management and employment law stuff.
[00:02:06] My guest is Sandra Kuna. Sandra's career has spanned recruitment, training, and communications roles in the fitness and quick service restaurant industries. Today she's Motis vice president of people and culture. Sandra sees herself as an advocate first for the company's 1900 field base and 100 corporate employees championing diversity, equity, and inclusion initiatives, as well as investments in employee learning and development.
[00:02:32] This episode is a must listen, enjoy. Hello and welcome back to Talent Management Truths. I'm your host, Lisa Mitchell, and today I'm joined by Sandra Kuna, who is the Vice President of People and Culture at Moti. Sandra, welcome to the show.
[00:02:51] sandra-cunha_recording-1_2023-04-05--t02-23-52pm--guest588122--sandra: Thank you. Thanks for having me.
[00:02:52] sandra-cunha_recording-1_2023-04-05--t02-23-52pm--61157a395affa4006d0cfc64--lollyg: my pleasure. So perhaps we could begin with you sharing a little bit about your background and what you do at mova.
[00:03:00] sandra-cunha_recording-1_2023-04-05--t02-23-52pm--guest588122--sandra: Sure. I am the people leader at Mova Athletic, and I've been in the fitness industry for, oh, probably just over 20 years now. Started out as a part-time career just teaching group fitness classes while I was raising my kids. And naturally in through the. Course of my career, I'd always fallen into training and development or learning and development recruitment type roles.
[00:03:24] So while I was jumping into the world of fitness, I was also finding myself in a position around facilitating courses and, and leading some training functions with, with the Y M C A. And so I decided I didn't embark on it going back to school as an adult and, and decided to, to go obtain my Bachelor of education in adult education just to further my opportunities in the training and development world, which it was known as back then.
[00:03:51] And then I landed in an operations role with Tim Horton's head office. And started in their corporate wellness department in the HR section. So really working towards things like benefits providers. What were some of the, the drug prescription habits of the organization. How could we build wellness programs to better support healthy employees?
[00:04:11] And then moving into their operations training department from there as a facilitator and later on, an instructional designer. So really putting some roots in the learning and development background that I, I had obtained. And so I spent some time in that learning and development world with Tim Horton's and later moved to a private company that provided B2B services for m b2 g for e-learning in particular, just to round out my, my learning resume.
[00:04:36] And I still kept. Fitness going. I was still teaching classes part-time. It's a passion of mine. I'm a bit of a gym rat, so, it, it kind of fell nicely when I saw a posting with moti that was for a learning and development manager which is unique. You don't see a whole lot of, of fitness organizations put some time, money, effort into the learning and development function.
[00:04:58] So, you know, long story short, it applied. They ended up offering me a director role. So I came into this role from learning and development to build from the ground up a strong learning culture at Mova. And after about a year and a half, two years I had the opportunity to move into people and culture.
[00:05:15] So, I like to say I didn't come into HR in the natural form of. Things. I came from the operations world, which has given me a unique perspective being, being the people leader in the organization now.
[00:05:28] sandra-cunha_recording-1_2023-04-05--t02-23-52pm--61157a395affa4006d0cfc64--lollyg: Yes, I can appreciate that too. And as we were chatting in the green room, so. There's so many parts of your story that resonate with me, right, with the background and, you know, the beed, the instructional design, the facilitation, and I did operations too. Like I ran a training department, you know, that was my first kind of foray into corporate.
[00:05:43] When I think about it, it's just wild. I had no idea what I was doing, but ended up doing an okay job and then, you know, the rest is history and it's, it's always been something I really value having that operational perspective especially given. You know, the rest of my career was focused more on the people side, which as we'll get into today sometimes the different business units, operations, CS as an obstacle when you're in HR and learning.
[00:06:08] So, actually let's, let's start there. So, you know, that was a, that was a word you'd used when we were speaking earlier off mic. What, well, how does this show up for you that, that, that you see ops sort of. You know, perceiving your functions as an obstacle.
[00:06:26] sandra-cunha_recording-1_2023-04-05--t02-23-52pm--guest588122--sandra: I think, you know, an obstacle or a hurdle, not in the sense that, you know, we stop people from accomplishing their goal. I think it's operations moves quickly in most organizations and especially one that's driven around performance culture. And so I like to move quickly too. But I, I think there's some consideration around, you know, the 10 to 15% of my.
[00:06:52] P and c hat or my HR hat that says there's a black and white area around employment law and risk management that is non-negotiable. But it's such a small percentage of what I'm bringing to the table. Let's talk about the 85% that's actually negotiable and what's working for you and what isn't.
[00:07:09] But there is a bit of just being really cognizant as, as I participate in conversations and strategic planning, that what doesn't come to the forefront is this 15%. That people see as a hurdle, that it's the look what I can bring to your team. And so I'm really fortunate in that I report into the C E O, which I think is really important for an HR leader to be under that particular umbrella.
[00:07:33] And he, and he. Is very good about saying, I can't get you extra headcount on your team, but what I can do is supply you with this incredible HR team that will work as extra headcount if you learn to work with them collaboratively. And so I find I try to really diminish that 15% as much as I, cuz it's a given.
[00:07:54] That black and white is a given. Let's talk about all the other great things that my team brings to your team. Like we, we leverage my recruitment team, leverage my l and d team, leverage my operational skillset to be able to help you get to your goal, not necessarily quicker, maybe at the same pace or slightly slower, but at a more efficient and effective way that's scalable.
[00:08:16] That is gonna be consistent from or from location to location. So I try to put that at the forefront or the objective of our meetings is, okay, what are you hoping to get from my team? And then I'll say, okay, here's the things I think we can deliver on. And then talk about, you know, the 15% as a, we have to hit these, but here's all the other great things that are gonna come as a result of this discussion.
[00:08:39] sandra-cunha_recording-1_2023-04-05--t02-23-52pm--61157a395affa4006d0cfc64--lollyg: Well, so what you just made me think of is, is this the power of providing context? And stating your intention upfront so that people aren't making assumptions Right. Or going negative as we do in the absence of information. Right. They're, because that's the, the tricky thing with the, you know, stakeholders in other disciplines, they often sort of, you know, depending on their experience over, over time, may see HR in particular or od learning a little bit less so as, The police.
[00:09:11] Right. You know, like, have you ever, I don't know about you, but I, I've walked into a room, I remember years ago, HR is here. Oh my God. Everybody behaved, you know, as a joke. And I know that joke is still well alive and well. Cause I had a client mention it to me the other day cause she was really hijacked by it.
[00:09:27] You know, so there's this, this feeling sometimes that, oh, people are kind of blocking me before I even have a chance to demonstrate value, add value. So I love what you kind of modeled in terms of providing that context and and intention right away.
[00:09:43] sandra-cunha_recording-1_2023-04-05--t02-23-52pm--guest588122--sandra: And I think, you know, my
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[00:09:44] sandra-cunha_recording-1_2023-04-05--t02-23-52pm--guest588122--sandra: demographic is a bit, is a bit different in the fitness industry. We have a lot of green leaders in our organization outside of corporately, but I would say certainly in our field operations. And so I set, I set some some ground rules. Ground truths with my team in particular around how we manage that perception.
[00:10:04] Is that my goal? Is, I understand most of the managers that work with us probably won't retire with us, and that's okay. What I want them to be able to say is they've built something on their resume as a result of what my team was able to bring to their experience as a manager. And so if my. Managers in the field don't know how to train a new employee, don't know how to onboard, don't know how to performance manage, don't know how to, how to build and, and promote within then I haven't really done my job as their HR leader, so I want them to move on from our organization as a better leader, as a better people manager.
[00:10:43] And so I, I really do try to bring that to the forefront of. Like my, my field facing team that they steer away from it is really easy to get caught up in the less than 10% of underperformers, you know, the, the basic stuff like attendance and, you know, just not doing the necessary things because they're negative.
[00:11:04] And, and we know that when we start to get into the, the negative. Route of things, it can bring everything else down. So I try to even get them to think about when you're having conversations with your, your field managers. Start with who's performing well, what can, who can we, you know, who can we congratulate?
[00:11:21] What can, whose individual development plan can we work on? Oh, okay. Do you have any notices you need written up? Because I don't want that to be, and, and I even have them, you know, if that's something they wanna do here, fill out a form. Like, that's how I want that to be so insignificant. Most of our time needs to be on developing the people that want to be develop, developed, and spending less time on the people that need to be performance managed.
[00:11:44] You know, unless, of course there's exceptions to that rule, but for the most part, you know, there's, it's such a small, insignificant part, but it can overshadow so many great things that are happening.
[00:11:55] sandra-cunha_recording-1_2023-04-05--t02-23-52pm--61157a395affa4006d0cfc64--lollyg: Yeah, it, I mean, it can, and, and the biggest complaint from so many leaders I speak to is that performance management or performance improvement plans and so on. It sucks up so much time. It's so painful. Right. And so, helping people understand we've got a clear process, you're gonna move through it.
[00:12:11] This can, you know, this, this is a distraction. People are gonna, you know, that the person's either going to understand that, oh wow, this is serious. I really do need to, you know, improve and do what I can here. Or, you know, there's a consequence and maybe I leave. But but it's no more than that. You know, I'm gonna do everything I can to help you succeed where you, you've been failing.
[00:12:32] But meantime, I don't wanna take my eye off the ball. That is those people that are thriving, right? And then we want to keep, and you know, retain over time.
[00:12:42] sandra-cunha_recording-1_2023-04-05--t02-23-52pm--guest588122--sandra: Exactly.
[00:12:43] sandra-cunha_recording-1_2023-04-05--t02-23-52pm--61157a395affa4006d0cfc64--lollyg: Yeah, so, so something that I, I'm wondering, may play into you know, how you, you run your, your division and so on is around metrics that you use around the employee experience and looking at data from, from recruitment through retirement.
[00:13:00] Would you tell us a little bit about how you use data?
[00:13:03] sandra-cunha_recording-1_2023-04-05--t02-23-52pm--guest588122--sandra: Yeah, I think We, we have a lot of rich data available to us that I don't even think we had five years ago, let alone, you know, 10 years ago. But one of the things when I took over the people and culture team I think I, I just. I take a lens of curiosity, so I didn't make any changes right away. I, I just sort of observed and saw how the team behaved with the organization.
[00:13:31] And what was really apparent to me is that they were serving an administrative function that I think could be solved through some automation. And so we went down the path of, of changing well, really moving into the H C M. Ability to invest in a new H C M A, new l m s, like, get the right tools in place to be able to get some of that data so we could start making some strategic decisions.
[00:13:54] And we're in a really good place now. We, I mean, we were close for 17 months during covid, off and on. So the blessing to that was that we had some time to implement a new H C M N, really understand how we could leverage it. The bad news is I had no data, I didn't have people working. I, I was, I, I re, I had to recruit.
[00:14:14] Our entire workforce. Oh,
[00:14:15] So once we implemented the H C M, we could start to get some of the data that we've never had access to. And we didn't really do anything with it at first. We just observed probably for the entire first year as we could get a year under our belt of consistently being open. And so that would've been in January of this year.
[00:14:34] And I, I brought some of that. I was a keynote speaker at a People Nalytics summit. Earlier this year, and I brought some of that data. And even without having the investment in the tools, there's some really great things that come out of just paying attention to some of the trends and behaviors that are happening.
[00:14:51] And, and we talked about Lisa, like how I, I think the recruitment. Conundrum is a bit of a myth because I can see, I can see the number of applicants now coming to me. I can see how many of them get through the stages of our recruitment cycle. I can see how many we decline. I can see how many of them decline.
[00:15:08] I can see reasons for that. And so I've brought that sense of curiosity to my team. Now we're, you know, we're doing 30 day You know, new hire surveys, we're asking people for stay interviews and, and it's all automated. So at the 30 day mark, someone gets a, a survey. Within that survey they ask, Hey, do you wanna talk to us more about this?
[00:15:28] We'd love to hear about your experience. And from that I'm extracting information about our onboarding process, about our training materials, about how our managers are doing about, Hey, did you get your uniform on time? Like some very basic information, but also some really rich stuff around maybe. The way we're doing learning and development isn't the right thing to be doing today.
[00:15:50] And so, as an example of that I've always been a proponent of teach the managers to train their team. So less of a, a centralized approach to learning and development coming from the franchise model at Tim Horton. So, you know, kind of give, give them the tools they need to go fish. And, you know, I've been kinda stubborn about that and said, no, no, this is it.
[00:16:12] We'll create great training materials, you know, we'll put the right processes in place and everybody will be happy and will have great onboarding and great training and people will stay and, and. The data was coming back saying, fail, fail, fail. And one of, one of the trends that we really pay attention to is the 90 day turnover rate.
[00:16:29] It's not unusual. We, we kind of compare ourselves to the retail market with it's a younger demographic. If they're not feeling good and successful in their first 90 days, they're gonna leave. So how do I differentiate myself from, from the McDonald's and the Tom Hortons of the world because I do believe we're a great place to work and, you know, People are generally happy when, when they're leaving the gym.
[00:16:49] So what I, what I started to look at is, okay, get out of your bubble for a second and think about maybe there's a better way of doing this. So one of the immediate things that have come forward from all of this data is I brought in a training department, because what I started to recognize through all of the data that we were starting to receive from our teams is that our management teams with a focus on.
[00:17:15] Performance culture, so acquisition of it, of members, retention of members. It was really hard for them to do Folsom onboarding and training. Given we're open seven days a week, we're open from 5:00 AM you know, to, to 11:00 PM in some in some locations. So how. You know, what's the best thing to do? So I kind of play, I, I've probably restructured my team, you know, three or four times since I've taken over.
[00:17:44] But that's, that's the flexibility that people and culture, HR needs to bring to the operations table is it's not working. What adjustments can we make in the short term that will help us long term? So even though we're sort of in the infancy stage of this new I would say field training team, we're starting to see the.
[00:18:03] The sigh of relief from our management teams, which is actually helping our retention of our managers
[00:18:10] sandra-cunha_recording-1_2023-04-05--t02-23-52pm--61157a395affa4006d0cfc64--lollyg: Got it. It's a domino effect. Right. So I'm curious, so, so does this field training team, does that mean that they're going out to the different gyms where they're needed or, or you're bringing people in
[00:18:24] sandra-cunha_recording-1_2023-04-05--t02-23-52pm--guest588122--sandra: So. So there's a bit of not bringing them into corporate. I bring people into corporate at the leadership. We have an accelerated leadership development program, and we have kind of a GM certification program that, that we do, and we bring them into corporate. What I do is there's, there's kind of two sections to this.
[00:18:41] will run regional. Training boot camps, sort of for new employees. So the expectation is still that a manager will onboard, we'll do some of the training knowing that, oh, in three weeks there's a regional training session that I can send this employee to that's a five day intensive. How do I do my job?
[00:19:00] Right? Like how the, the honing of those skills. So we can give you the immediate skills in your first couple of weeks of, of onboarding, and then you can go develop. Some of those skills in a really safe environment with some role playing and some subject matter experts. So I don't know the data of of where that's gonna end up, but it feels like the right place for us.
[00:19:19] I think the lesson is that, in that is that the data gives us the opportunity to make some more flexible decisions. think a really big opportunity for a lot of organizations is actually on the. Opposite end of the employee life cycle. So as we're starting to see people move towards retirement, it's not, it's not huge for us at moti, but I would say what's huge for us is legacy information.
[00:19:42] So people that have been around for a long time and just know how things work innately, but they are one person in the organization. So again, with my, my learning and development and organizational development teams, it's extracting that information and building bite size learning so that and creating some, a little bit of reverse mentoring too, around, well, there's new ways to do this that isn't just, you know, writing in a notebook.
[00:20:06] And so taking some of our more technical leaders and working with these legacy leaders to, to meld those two worlds together. And that's really leveraging the talent of your learning and development professionals, because those instructional designers are key in understanding how to take all that great.
[00:20:24] Information that's sitting in a subject matter expert's head and putting it into a place that I, I mean, we're, we're a company that's scaling to grow. We're owned by a private equity firm. They wanna see that we can take our model of how we build a club and implement it in a brand new club. And I think a lot of organizations are in the same place.
[00:20:42] So top of mind for me is always, whatever I'm working on has to be scalable. I can't, you know, I can't always adjust on every single new club. So when I say yes, we, we can be flexible and agile and, and change our processes. That process has to work for all 50 locations.
[00:21:01] sandra-cunha_recording-1_2023-04-05--t02-23-52pm--61157a395affa4006d0cfc64--lollyg: Right. Yeah, fair enough, fair enough. So everything has to be scalable and it really sounds like, Acknowledging the knowledge capital that everybody brings and how do we tap into that to benefit from it right. As we continue to scale. Yeah. Okay. So that's really interesting.
[00:21:19] I really appreciate you, you know, giving us a bit bit of a peek behind the curtains around how you use data to make these decisions. Let's move down sort of a slightly different avenue because something that I think you and I are quite passionate about is how. HR and od P the people function is, is often serving the role strategically of devil's advocate.
[00:21:39] sandra-cunha_recording-1_2023-04-05--t02-23-52pm--guest588122--sandra: Mm-hmm.
[00:21:39] sandra-cunha_recording-1_2023-04-05--t02-23-52pm--61157a395affa4006d0cfc64--lollyg: Could you tell us a little bit about how that shows up for you and your views on that?
[00:21:44] sandra-cunha_recording-1_2023-04-05--t02-23-52pm--guest588122--sandra: Yeah, I think, you know, we talked to this a a little bit around finance falls into that category sometimes, and so does legal and hr, you know, that we're seen as potentially negative. And part of that is just the nature of, from an operations perspective, you're very reactive. That's just the nature of the role.
[00:22:02] I and I, I use the analogy of operations. Walks in, they see a fire, they grab what they need, they put out the fire, they move on. We walk in and we go, oh, there's a fire. I wonder if that fire has happened in other locations. I wonder if we have the right tools to make sure people know how to handle that and what could we have done to prevent that in the first place.
[00:22:22] So we come in with a very different perspective to how that incident. It occurs. And so, I've taken a few operations people and brought them to my side of the world and I find most of my development is around this proactivity. So, you know, where you're 60 to 90 days out of what may potentially happen.
[00:22:44] And so, yes, sometimes that is, you know, devil's advocate is. Negative, but sometimes devil's advocate is hey, we're a great team and I see lots of really great qualities. How can we continue to leverage that when things don't go right? So, we, we talked a bit before, we started chatting here, just around how I'm building relationships with the executive team around.
[00:23:10] We've, we're doing really well post pandemic knock wood, like the fitness industry has really blown up. And we're, and we're a big player in that and, and we provide an, an exceptional experience for people and that's, that's what we're looking for post pandemic. And so it's been easy, it's been easy to work together when you're winning.
[00:23:29] And so. What's top of mind for me is watching kind of the economy and what potentially is a downturn that is to come in the next you know, three to six months and observing. My, my role in particular is around counseling the executive team, just around how we can continue to leverage our expertise and our strengths within the group, but also how they are people, leaders in their own right.
[00:23:57] And so I'm already thinking about. What things don't we do well that I can work on now to make sure that we're in the best possible business space six months from now? And that's not always popular opinion. So, you know, ha when saying to people, you know, we're expecting this economic downturn and, and you know what?
[00:24:18] We're not really good at the difficult conversations. And so we should be practicing some of some of that right now to, to get to where we need to be. And I think getting a. Supporter of that early is really important. So I work with five or six different leaders across, whether it's C-Suite or directors or or VPs.
[00:24:42] I kind of go find my champions early, so, know, my, my CFO's always gonna be that person because they sit in the same. Space as me, same with with my general counsel. So I know when I bring things to the executive table that I've got some quiet supporters at the table who may not be overly vocal, but I know they'll pipe in where they see the same sort of alignment in their roles
[00:25:05] sandra-cunha_recording-1_2023-04-05--t02-23-52pm--61157a395affa4006d0cfc64--lollyg: out who your allies are
[00:25:07] sandra-cunha_recording-1_2023-04-05--t02-23-52pm--guest588122--sandra: yeah, exactly.
[00:25:08] Exactly.
[00:25:09] sandra-cunha_recording-1_2023-04-05--t02-23-52pm--61157a395affa4006d0cfc64--lollyg: Mm-hmm.
[00:25:10] sandra-cunha_recording-1_2023-04-05--t02-23-52pm--guest588122--sandra: So, and I tr I try to really, and in the, I think one of the, Opportunities for an HR function is we tend to not know what we don't know. Right? So because you're not in, in the business cycle every single day, sometimes we're late to the party of, I wish you had told me that 30 days ago, I would've built a really great plan for you.
[00:25:31] And so I'm finding, I insert myself sometimes where it's uncomfortable because I'm, I'm asking myself as a p and c leader. Is that the right place for me to insert myself? But I can always use this, this lens of curiosity. Oh, I may not be able to offer anything, but I'm curious. I. And so I'll just observe if that's okay with you.
[00:25:54] You know, I'm just gonna sit in on a meeting and sometimes I'll pop up in a club and, and a manager walk in. Oh, I'm about to have my manager meeting. Oh, do you mind if I just sit in like, no judgment. I just, I, from a lens of curiosity, I wanna see how you do things differently from somewhere else. So I find that using that vocabulary with people helps that devil advocate perspective.
[00:26:15] I'm not coming in to see where things could go wrong. I'm.
[00:26:18] sandra-cunha_recording-1_2023-04-05--t02-23-52pm--61157a395affa4006d0cfc64--lollyg: looking to help you celebrate and to to, to un, you know, for my own knowledge, to understand what's going on, what's important to you right now. All of that is really, really critical. And, you know, a few things that I wanted to kind of tease out of, of what you were saying is, This idea of how easy it is to work together when you're winning, right.
[00:26:36] When you're on a peak versus a valley. And so this trying to be, you know, helping that is something that HR and, and od, I think are, are, are uniquely positioned to do because you're in that, that organizational middle and, and you serve. Everyone, right? You're looking broadly across the organization, so you have this perspective to bring to the table to say, Hey, I see this over on the horizon and it's, it's sort of coming our way.
[00:27:02] So let's talk about, you know, how we will choose to navigate X and Y when it arrives so that it's not a big surprise and it'll be much more. Expedient and, and comfortable, right. So I, I do think that's really important. And, you know, there was an episode that I think it just dropped last week. It's with Ran Gsh, who's, who's a, a very senior leader in the marketing area.
[00:27:24] So he is more of a stakeholder to, to people. So the people function and, you know, something he said to me as a, as a senior leader of marketing and has been doing this for a long time, he said, I'm looking for my, my people partner to, to, to tell me what I'm not seeing already. Right to bring. He wants that perspective.
[00:27:43] He wants to sort of say, help me notice what I'm not noticing. Kind of more naturally.
[00:27:49] sandra-cunha_recording-1_2023-04-05--t02-23-52pm--guest588122--sandra: Yeah. I think we fall into this category naturally around we are, HR leaders are built to please, like we want to help people so badly, and sometimes we fall into this trap of doing the work for people and. I am a bit of a gatekeeper with my team, and they'll say that a hundred percent. We do a start, stop, continue in our, in our organization.
[00:28:13] So, and they'll say all the time, do not stop Sandra, do not stop being our advocate because you will defend us till the end of the earth. And what I mean by that is I want you to be a collaborative, but I do not want you to be a minion. That is not our job. We are not. Yes, we're not exactly, exactly. So the conversation has to be, oh, I see what you're trying to do strategically, and I see where my, I could lend you some support, how I can be a partner to help you do the work to get to your goal.
[00:28:50] And so, you know, I spent a lot of time working through building plans that have. Have racy charts built in that have milestones, celebration points and so that, that's my area of comfort. I love to build plans and processes, so I think you can do that in a really neat, informal way that isn't intimidating to people as long as the language is there around, I'm a partner.
[00:29:17] Right versus an administrator. So here's the skillset. I'm an L and D leader. Here's the skillset I bring to the table. Or I'm a recruitment leader. This is the skillset I bring to the table. Here's what I am going to do as part of the project, and here's where I see you. Taking some of that load. Do you agree, disagree?
[00:29:38] Do you see something that's unmatched? And I, I, so I, I think sometimes I'm having to pull my team back a bit to say, Uhuh, you're doing too much. This is where your job ends and their job begins. And I also believe that our team, HR leaders have a skillset that is really difficult. To see for others to work on.
[00:29:58] And that's the ability to have difficult conversations that that radical candor, right? We have to, I don't, I wouldn't hire somebody in HR that doesn't have the ability to have those tough conversations. So I also see us as teachers because if we're practicing what we preach, then it. Innately, the people we're talking to are gonna pick up some of that behavior, and so we have to be the ones to say, I need, I do it all the time.
[00:30:23] I need to stop you right there. L and d doesn't pretty up your PowerPoint. That is not what we do. Right. And, and I have to say those words. And that's okay. I'm comfortable saying those words so that we can get into the conversation around, oh, you know, okay, well here's why I said that. Okay. Let me explain to you the work that happens behind the scenes so that, yeah, we do make a great PowerPoint, but here's how we get there.
[00:30:46] Like you give us. Bunches and bunches and bunches of information, and we have to make it learnable. So I, I think it's really important that the HR team is very bold and confident in. In their role or their expectations of the relationships they're building. But that takes a really strong value proposition from the leader of that department and the c e O or president.
[00:31:12] They have to be on the same page. And that's why I feel passionately about this role reporting into the, to the leader of the organization versus the finance function or the operations function, because that is the person that has to drive the value of this team. And so you can really. We've all seen it.
[00:31:29] HR can fall into that police administrative, oh, we used to have a note taker at our meetings. Well, that's, that's, that's not us. And I don't even have my team do the work around writeups. They fill out the form and then we talk to them about how they could have done better. Now go back and do another draft because I'm teaching you a new skill.
[00:31:50] And you have to practice it and practice it and practice it until you don't wanna do them anymore. So you work a little better at hiring so that you're not doing those write-ups anymore.
[00:31:59] sandra-cunha_recording-1_2023-04-05--t02-23-52pm--61157a395affa4006d0cfc64--lollyg: It's so funny, you know, just on the the, the whole, the whole piece around being bold and confident around the, the, the value proposition and, and the modeling that we do in this function, you know, particularly around difficult conversations. I mean, I would tell you now that I'm external almost six years, right?
[00:32:15] Probably 50% of the coaching conversations I have with clients is, is around the difficult conversation. How do we navigate that? In a clear and kind way. I prefer that to radical candor, even though I, I, I value that model as well. But it's, it's something that, it's well honed when you've been doing this kind of work for a long time.
[00:32:33] It's part and parcel of the role. Whereas I think for a lot of managers, that's just, it's, it's been easier to kind of put your head in the sand and ignore, you know, you know, or preferable. Until finally, Get some help, you get some advocacy usually from your people partner. So one last question too, because I see that we're getting close to the end, but I do want to touch on something that came up in our green room conversations around this idea that, I mean, HR has been working to move into that strategic partner role from an administrator to, you know, transactional, transformational for a long time.
[00:33:10] And there, There's a new tone in the ether, right? And, and this idea that, you know, and advocates for HR leaders can and should be considered for c e o roles, like as a successor. Whereas I can tell you earlier in my, that earlier in my career that was not, that was not seen as possible for a whole bunch of reasons, right or wrong, what have you, what is your thinking around this area?
[00:33:37] sandra-cunha_recording-1_2023-04-05--t02-23-52pm--guest588122--sandra: I think we, we pigeonhole our, pigeonhole ourselves a little bit. We tie ourselves back. So, for my particular business, being able to understand the financial, have the financial acumen to be able to speak to how we're performing in the world of. Being owned by a PE firm, building some an an American p a p firm which HR has seen very differently in the US market than it is in in Canada.
[00:34:06] So there's, there's its own obstacles there, but being able to intelligently speak to. The financial aspect of the business and how we impact it because for so long we've been a cost center. So to be able to show how and some of that data gives me that this is how we directly co-relate successful recruiting to succession planning.
[00:34:32] To performance metrics. So we've worked really hard in the last year to to move towards this performance culture, and my job has been to not move so far to performance culture that we've forgotten about people. And so. You know, devil's advocate that I am he saw the project come forward and said, here's my two pages worth of devil's advocacy around why, what you need to do to make sure we don't move down this road of performance only and not people, and I don't know too many other people at the executive team that bring that lens of people first, other than your head of hr.
[00:35:06] And so that, that's where I think there is a unique. Ability for that HR leader to move into that president or c e o role if they're operationally focused. If they've got the financial acumen, then they already have, I don't know, too many organizations that run without people. So, that, it's much harder to have that skillset versus the other two.
[00:35:31] Components, and I saw a bit of a shift. We talked about this a little bit, you know, maybe I'll just mention it now, but through covid, this extreme push towards the empathetic leader, which I'm a, I'm a fan of, let's do it, let's let, there's nothing I'd like to see more than have empathetic leaders, but it was so much of a shift.
[00:35:53] We forgot about accountability and so I think. Where in the past HR has been, oh yeah, they're too soft. They, you know, they don't wanna let me do this. They don't want too much empathy. I find I'm the one pushing going, okay, enough's enough. Like, when are you gonna start performance managing this person?
[00:36:09] When are you gonna hold, hold this manager accountable? We've done these great processes, we've put these great tools in place. Now the manager needs to be held accountable to doing their job. And so I'm seeing this bit of a struggle to move people from a place of. I don't wanna say too much empathy, but leading with empathy and forgetting that we still have to be business leaders.
[00:36:29] And so that's my team driving that behavior from it, it's been a, it's been a kind of a weird transformation
[00:36:35] sandra-cunha_recording-1_2023-04-05--t02-23-52pm--61157a395affa4006d0cfc64--lollyg: I love it though because it's, it kind of flips it on its head that, oh, hrs fluffy that, that used to drive me cut crazy. Right? Like, so I actually will, will get that, you know, out of the way right away when working with new clients, if they're more sort of on the operational sales side is like, if.
[00:36:50] You know, you're concerned about this being fluffy. I will assure you it's not. And here's why and how I know that. Right. You know, just get it outta the way. But this idea of being the ones to push for the accountability, it takes me back. There's a, there's a course that I've taught a few times leadership development course more for newer leaders.
[00:37:04] But it's this idea of, you know, are you leading or are you managing?
[00:37:09] sandra-cunha_recording-1_2023-04-05--t02-23-52pm--guest588122--sandra: right.
[00:37:09] sandra-cunha_recording-1_2023-04-05--t02-23-52pm--61157a395affa4006d0cfc64--lollyg: And what's the blend? What's the right blend? Well, it's, it's contextual. It really depends. And it depends where somebody is with their learning, with their task, what they're ramping up and so on. But you need both in the end is the, is the answer.
[00:37:22] You know, whether the, the proportion changes over time is, is, is sure that's understood. We need both. We can't be empathetic. It's like radical candor if anybody's read the book or done the training. I've done a. Taught, taught that program a lot. It's this idea that, you know, if you're being overly you're overdoing the empathy, then you're actually not being kind because you're essentially being unclear.
[00:37:47] You're not being straight,
[00:37:49] sandra-cunha_recording-1_2023-04-05--t02-23-52pm--guest588122--sandra: Mm-hmm.
[00:37:49] sandra-cunha_recording-1_2023-04-05--t02-23-52pm--61157a395affa4006d0cfc64--lollyg: With somebody. And that's doing as much damage as when you're bull in the China shop and you're aggressively, you know, calling out any issues. So, yeah,
[00:37:57] sandra-cunha_recording-1_2023-04-05--t02-23-52pm--guest588122--sandra: It's, it's a fine, it's a fine balance, and I think we are the right people. To bring that forward. And I think it's understanding the philosophy, principles of your organization and, and you know, what your mission is, and, and aligning your, your team and your values to what the company's trying to strive for.
[00:38:17] So it's gonna be different in every organization, but you know, My particular leadership style might not work in another organization, but in our organization, you know, I'm, I'm adapting to what the business needs and that adaptability is important. To continue to be for the business to feel that they have some confidence in my team and what they're able to bring, and if any point they don't feel like I'm bringing value, then I wanna hear that.
[00:38:49] I don't wanna hear it through the grapevine. I want you to be able to come to me and say, I'm not too sure that this particular function or this particular activity is still bringing value to the organization. Great. Let's have a discussion about it. And there is so much noise out there around leadership.
[00:39:08] I mean, you could just go to your local bookstore, hop on Amazon. There's. Millions and millions and mil millions of titles on leadership and, and don't get me wrong, leadership's important and charismatic leadership and all those things, but they're not actually what deliver results. What delivers results is that management piece, and we, it's not an either or.
[00:39:28] It's a balance of sometimes I'm gonna have to be 90% a leader. All Covid as an example. Managing's not important. I need to make sure that, you know, as we go through these ups and downs of what's happening, I need people to feel inspired. I need people to wanna come back to work for us to continue to see that we're a great place to work.
[00:39:46] Now we're in the world of okay, time to, to put our heads down and get some work done. I have to leverage my management style a bit differently.
[00:39:53] sandra-cunha_recording-1_2023-04-05--t02-23-52pm--61157a395affa4006d0cfc64--lollyg: Right. Yeah. Yeah. Well, it goes right back to that adaptability and it's incumbent on everybody. Right. Not just the people function to, to always be sensing like, what is the current need? Right. That's what agility is. Awesome. Well, this, this has been such a wonderful conversation. We could we could continue for another couple hours, I'm sure.
[00:40:12] Thank
[00:40:13] sandra-cunha_recording-1_2023-04-05--t02-23-52pm--guest588122--sandra: Probably. Thank you. I appreciate it. It was great.
[00:40:16] sandra-cunha_recording-1_2023-04-05--t02-23-52pm--61157a395affa4006d0cfc64--lollyg: was, it was a pleasure. Thank you very much.
