[00:00:00] You know those conferences where you go and listen to some speakers, pick up a new idea or two, maybe exchange a few business cards here and there. You get slightly inspired and refreshed, and then you go back to work and get swept back up in the busyness of it all. Never getting around to applying what you learned.
[00:01:13] That's why I offer free monthly talent talks For busy talent leaders like you, we spend time discussing essential topics in small breakout groups and facilitated large group discussions. We develop our networks and we pool our expertise. You walk away with not only ideas, but realistic steps for how you will apply your shiny new learning.
[00:01:34] Register [email protected] slash Talent Talks. See you there.
[00:01:41] What is your story of the best support you ever received from HR as an employee yourself, and what's the most important element of the HR partnering relationship? In today's episode, I share a personal story of an HR BP who helped me with a tough situation, and my guest breaks down what helps drive confidence in HR leaders.
[00:02:02] My guest is Nicole Stewart. Nicole is Vice President of People and Culture at Jameson Wellness Inc. Nicole is a passionate, strategic HR leader with a focus on health and wellbeing and diversity and inclusion. She's over 25 years, ex experience in culture, evolution, change, leadership, and so on. She's a proud mom of two very sporty kids outside of work.
[00:02:25] She volunteers several different organizations and I just wanna say that. Nicole is also an awesome human being and I know this from up close. As you'll learn in this episode, we go back a few years. Thank you so much for listening. Enjoy.
[00:02:39] Hello and welcome back to Talent Management Truths. I'm your host, Lisa Mitchell, and today I'm joined by Nicole Stewart. Nicole is the Vice President of People and Culture at Jameson Wellness Canada. Welcome to the show, Nicole. Thank you so much, Lisa, for having me. My pleasure. So please if you would share a little bit with me and the audience what you do at Jameson, and a little bit about your background, your journey on the way here.
[00:03:10] Yes, absolutely. So at Jameson as the head of Human Resources for a Canadian owned company, which is really exciting for me to be part of a Canadian owned company, but one that is going global. So, we've expanded into the US in California and we are growing our China office as we speak. And so it is a global role.
[00:03:32] And supporting and mentoring about 11 HR plus the US and China hr team members as well would be my role today. And then a little bit of the background as to how I got here. I like to say that I grew up in hr, right? I really feel like I built my HR career from the ground up, entry level roles, and then really gained breadth from Learning, doing and trying almost every area of hr.
[00:03:58] Certainly not a deep subject matter expert in in pension or, or, or benefits. But always an HR generalist, which is my main love. And then recruiting and training benefits, compensation, payroll, and HR services, which was more in the recent past as I think hr, as a, as an industry really started to expand in our HR services area.
[00:04:18] I picked that one up along the way as well. Right. Excellent. Yeah, so, and it's, it's neat that you referenced, you know, your first love sort of being that generalist because that's when I first encountered you cuz we worked together. Listeners, just so you know Over 20 years ago, and I was manager of learning and development team and the knowledge-based team.
[00:04:38] And I think I had policy and procedures or something and you are my HR business partner and I remember I had this one employee who was, was difficult and I had. I was scared of him and I tried everything. He was surly and he was, he was doing some really odd things and I, you know, it was my first really tough experience with, with, with a difficult employee who, you know, and I remember going to see you and I talk about this.
[00:05:02] I, I've shared this with you. When I facilitate leadership development, I'm like, here's what support looks like when somebody can tell you what you're not seeing. Cuz I remember sitting in your office up top on the 14th floor. And it was a blue cubicle with high walls for hr. And I remember explaining this and saying like, what do I need to do?
[00:05:23] What else can I do? And you looked at me and said, you've already done too much. It's time for a different kind of intervention. You're fine. The issue is not you. And I remember because I, you know, there was this fear and so I was like, felt like I was walking around on eggshells and you just kind of a swash that fear and kind of, I.
[00:05:43] You know, you know, we're very assertive in terms of here's what we need to do next. And, and you really helped me solve that, that whole predicament that I was in. So, thank you again. 20 plus years later. That's good to hear. That's good to hear. Yeah. Yeah. No, and it's, it's when managers come to you and they have done all that they can.
[00:06:00] Right. And, and they come to you with a, a full and complete file, that's a. That's a, a nice day for an HR person as well, so I'm, I'm glad it worked for you. Well, and I get that because I did the role myself you know, flash word many years later and I, I was, I was an HR business partner for about five years, and, and I remember that, you know, it was, oh my God, when you actually had leaders that had done the homework and had really tried to.
[00:06:23] Not go by the book, but you know, they'd really done everything in their power and sought advice before and everything. But I remember that day because I, I thought, oh, it's gotta be me. Like this can't, like, how could this be this hard? Right? So really having that person who was so astute could kind of cut through the noise and see the situation and help me see it for what it really was.
[00:06:42] Cause I was being so hard on myself. So, yeah. Very, very important piece that I, I think. When we look at that function of HR journalists, we don't always appreciate that part of it. Right? Yeah. Seeing what's going right, not just what's, what's a problem. Yeah, yeah, exactly. Yeah. Interesting. So, so nowadays you've, you, you spent quite a long time in a, in a large pharmaceutical company and you made the jump to Jameson, what about a year ago or so?
[00:07:11] That's right. Yeah. Yeah. So you're in a Canadian owned company going global. Before you were in a global company, what have you noticed in terms of the, like the differences in cultures? It must be fascinating. Yes. Yeah, it's there's lots of change that you experience. I think going from any company A to company B, there's gonna be change.
[00:07:29] But certainly being part of a Canadian company now I can feel that I'm at the center where decisions are being made. Programs are being initiated and set from the center and rolled out, versus my previous company when. Which is global. Then we were a co, a country that was receiving the global programs and we were implementing, but we weren't designing or getting to make decisions.
[00:07:53] So I think that's the main difference that I feel that now we're setting, we're setting the framework and we're making the decisions. So that's exciting. It is, yeah, it's a completely kind of different focus or, or outlook on, on the work. So it's not that there's anything wrong with either way, it's just very, very different.
[00:08:10] So when you think about, I mean, you've got, you've got some real breadth in your, in your career, even if you do love the generalist piece, but what would you say is the talent initiative you're most proud of in your career? Probably the culture journey at my last employer. So I was there 10 years and in the last two to three years, it was a culture journey that the business had decided was needed it was foundational within the culture.
[00:08:39] So it was really interesting that it was a business decision to change the business framework, which was the culture. And so, they were going from a big pharma to a more entrepreneurial smaller focused pharma. And so that, that culture journey to work with the business and help them make those changes to mindset and behaviors to help the business go where it needed to go, and then to see the end result.
[00:09:09] Because change causes disruption and sometimes causes some negativity, cuz not everyone likes change. But to see that result in a top employer award that we achieved and then to sustain that for three years was really exciting. And an engagement score of 84% at going through that journey.
[00:09:26] At the same time as Covid. As well just to layer on something else. Oh, oh yeah. Just to throw that in, you know, just a little wrinkle there. That's tremendous. So congratulations on 84% engagement. That's a beautiful number. And three years running top employer of Canada. So how, so fill, fill me in a little bit on on.
[00:09:43] So this culture journey that took place kind of. You know, quite a, quite a significant project as any transformation is. So how did you fold that in, or how did it kind of play into the application for the top employers? Yeah, the top employer application is a very intense process. Um, was a big decision I can remember making at the time because the company that I worked with at that time, GSK used to participate.
[00:10:10] And probably five years prior my predecessor had made the decision to stop participating because we were going through a number of changes related to downsizing, restructuring, et cetera. So we decided to take a pause, and when I moved into the role, I made the decision to reenter that competition.
[00:10:28] And I can remember being very nervous because it's an external assessment. And that was part of the reason I wanted to go in cuz we believed that we were a great company to work for. We believed we provided a, you know, a, a very positive work environment, but to get that outside feedback and to have someone, there's a lot of different competitions you could enter and I found that this one.
[00:10:51] Was very tough and you knew you were being analyzed, right? You knew you were being analyzed. You, you weren't an automatic just because you filled in the application or paid the fee, you weren't an automatic. And so I can remember that very first time just waiting and waiting for the results and thinking, oh my goodness, what if we don't?
[00:11:09] But it, but it was very exciting to have achieved it and to be assessed on so many factors. It's, It's, I would say it's at least 10 factors that they assess you on, maybe more. culture is one of them. And you do provide your culture survey and your score.
[00:11:23] And as part of that, you're giving evidence and information about your facilities and your services and your benefits and vacations and leaves and all of those types of things. So, a lot of subject matter experts we had to partner with in order to complete that application. Yeah. Oh yeah. It's a huge effort.
[00:11:39] And you, you talked about when we were speaking offline, the, the, the binder kind of application. I remember. I'm trying to, I, I don't recall exactly what stage we were at, but we were looking into it. I had my team, we, we were trying to research what was involved. And it was just before I left an organization.
[00:11:53] couple of roles back and I remember feeling myself a bit overwhelmed just looking at the amount of data that we'd need to, to organize and, and submit. And I don't think they actually went through it after, through with it, after I left because it, it was just gonna take away too much from some other.
[00:12:09] Big rocks that were happening at the time. So maybe you could, you know, fill us in a little bit, give us some tips and tricks or a bit of advice around how to manage such a big undertaking. Cuz it certainly sounds like it was worth it. Yeah, yeah. I absolutely worth it. I'm just trying to remember the time span because to your point, it is quite intensive.
[00:12:30] I remember May being the deadline, I believe. And you wouldn't find out your results I think until November. That's how long it took them because they read page for page everyone's applications. Wow. And so I think we were a January, we were a January to May project run on that. as they opened up the application.
[00:12:50] And to your question, in terms of sort of tips on how to get through it I ran it like a project, so I would, I would select a project manager to add onto their day job. Great development opportunity for someone. Yes, to learn it, to learn additional skills. But also that project manager, you know, pulled in subject matter experts from a number of different areas, assigned sections of the application to them.
[00:13:15] And then you, you really ran it like a project and tried to achieve your milestones and make sure things were being submitted and being reviewed. Because there's not only answer the questions in the application, provide documented evidence of your policies, programs, photographs building layouts, even things like that.
[00:13:33] Gym, that kinda thing. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, yeah, exactly. And so they just measured you on so many different levels. And I even thought, what a great. What a great compilation of a company's accomplishments, right. In terms of, of when you finally get through it, you say, this is, these are all the things that we do for our people, for our employees.
[00:13:53] Right. And it, and it was quite phenomenal. So that's, so that, so that was nice to see as well. Yeah, absolutely. And then, so when you, when you went to apply again the following year, can you reuse anything or is it, or are you starting from scratch? Yeah, so they offer an overview like a webinar that you can attend to learn about the application and understand, and they give you some tips and tricks as well in terms of how they want things received.
[00:14:18] And I can remember one of the things they said was, you can't win with the same application. And so their, their end in mind, or their goal was to keep raising the Canadian bar, keep raising the bar for employers. And so they wanted to see improvement and changes. And so, and you could read other people's applications.
[00:14:40] And I can remember going to the award ceremony and other people's binders were on the table so that you could look through them and, and read them and, and hear, and also they had speakers at the, at the award event so you could hear what other people had done and you'd be like, oh, wow, I didn't. I didn't think about doing that.
[00:14:56] And then you go, oh, maybe I can do that this year. You know? Yeah. And so you, you had to keep raising your bar, which was another, I thought, very positive aspect of the application, right? Because it's someone pushing you. To say, well, there's, there's other people doing other things. You know, you think what you're doing is really great and it, and it is.
[00:15:14] But there's always other ways or other things to think about and that, that was a nice part of the external insights as well. I agree. That's what's really striking me here, is that this is a way to, and, and to galvanize your team around how do we keep. Picking it up a notch, right? Not in a scary way, but just not rest on our laurels and, and keep it fresh because, you know, we've been saying for decades now that change is the only constant.
[00:15:38] And it continues to be true. You know, it's not a new thing. So how do we kind of keep up with that and keep responding to the needs of, of employees, right? And make sure that we're creating that positive employee experience. Yeah, it's really, it's really interesting. Were there any other kind of.
[00:15:56] Impacts that you noticed internally as a result of, of having made that effort and, and won that award. And a great sense of pride throughout the employees. Like they, they, you know, as an HR person, you, you, you know, take ownership and, you know, you wanna make sure things go successful, but the, the pride that you could see and feel in the employees, when we announced it and, and you know, obviously we would have a celebratory event and they were like, You know, I work for a great company like this is awesome.
[00:16:25] Like, you know, we're, we're at the top sort of thing. And so, the other impact that I saw was, was pride across the employees. Yeah. Which, which is, is huge cuz it's one of those intangibles, right. That have a real correlation to. Retention, right. To people sticking out and to engagement. So I think that's another, you know, so if there's people listings sort are going, well, would I ever do that?
[00:16:48] Like, I don't have time for that. You know, it's thinking about, well how could you have time for that? Because look at what the potential return on investment is if you see it as an investment versus a chore. Anyway. Yeah, I'm not, I'm not working for Canada top employers, by the way, but I, I am intrigued by the fact that that, you know, three years running and, and that you, that you pursued that and it, it had such a, a giant impact.
[00:17:10] Well, let's shift, shift gears a little bit from that, and thank you for, for letting us hear a little bit more about how that went. When you think about you know, Jameson, I know that they, they have a, a, an embedded set of values and that one of them is entrepreneurship. And you also just mentioned that at GSK that they, they were trying to shift in that culture journey to more of an entrepreneurial feel.
[00:17:32] How does it show up in your, in that world and in your current world, this idea of entrepreneurship within corporate culture? Yeah, it's an, it's an interesting parallel actually between the, the two companies that you've picked up on because g s k very big global companies structure, like I had mentioned, you know, programs and things provided to you and what they wanted to create was more self or independent initiative.
[00:18:01] More local ownership to to drive results. So that was their entrepreneurial aspect, to be more fast moving. Right. So, so, so the big pharma companies are known for being slow and slow moving. It's very high governance, right? And of, you know, for all the right reasons. But they wanted to move towards being more fast and customer focused, right?
[00:18:24] So if the customer needed something, let's move more quickly to provide them what they needed. And so that was part of the culture change at gsk. Shift forward to Jameson. Interestingly, Jameson's a hundred year old company that's only been publicly traded for the last five years. And so it started as an entrepreneurial company.
[00:18:42] Privately owned. Privately held, very entrepreneurial because there was an entrepreneur who started it and ran it and, and that's the way they ran it. And in that environment, The entrepreneur is the leader and so and so, they make decisions and they say, okay, we're gonna go left today. We're gonna go right tomorrow.
[00:18:59] And so that entrepreneurial spirit is shifting at Jamison because they wanna hold on to the fast moving and customer responsiveness, but doing so in more of a framework and having more of a structure. Because that's what's needed when you start growing. Mm-hmm. Right? When, when the size starts getting big and you need to support more people and more customers, the efficient, effective way to do it is have things that are consistent and like a process that's built so you can keep running it the same way, but hold onto that entrepreneurial piece around fast moving and customer responsive and being innovative as well.
[00:19:38] That that's the other piece that Jameson is to stay innovative, so. Mm. Fascinating. Yeah. I like how you kind of showed the contrast there. And it is interesting, right, when you're looking at scale and growth that what worked for you to date won't necessarily keep working. Right. So how do you start to shift it?
[00:19:58] So is now, is that showing up in some of your deliverables and what you're trying to do as a team? Absolutely. And so within hr, Again, from the entrepreneurial start, HR had less structure and less consistency. Right? And so that slows us down actually, when we don't have the same way of doing something and we have to keep looking or making decisions each time.
[00:20:22] That slows you down, right? And also when you grow in size and you're trying to be consistent and fair and in, you know, ensure that consistency and fairness, you also can lose that. If you don't have the structure. And so the HR team and I, that's something that we're trying to build now to support the growth of the company.
[00:20:43] And it's interesting to see the HR team's reaction to it. Because I, I, you know, it's change. It's change. And so sometimes if I can just do it the way I want to do it, there's good things, there's good things in that, right? And then at other times they're like, well, like. Could do it, except I don't know the answer.
[00:21:00] So how many people do I have to ask to try to get the answer and why can't we just have one process and I don't have to ask anyone? Right. So, so it's, it's, we're shifting Absolutely. And getting more structure within our HR processes, and then we're hearing the feedback from our customers. Because the previous feedback was, If I go to different HR people, I get different answers, and I also go through different processes.
[00:21:23] And so as a customer, I don't like that. And so we're getting positive feedback there. And also the turnaround time gets better. So of course customers like that as well. Yeah, of course they do. Yeah. Yeah. How, how do you manage your feedback loops currently? Like what, what kinds of things do you have in place or are thinking about putting in place?
[00:21:41] So one thing that Jamison has is they have a, a smaller leadership group, which they refer to as the global leadership team. So if we have a hundred leaders across the organization, this is about 20 to 25 of them and they meet monthly. And so it's a really good testing ground for myself, right? So, hey, we're thinking about doing, we're thinking about changing a in this way.
[00:22:03] Right. Just tell me your feedback. Right. You know, gimme your feedback, gimme your input. So that's one way it's going through that group. Onboarding to a new company, you get, I think you get the advantage of being a new, a new employee because it's, it's what I called listen and learn, right? Yeah. So, hey, I'm new.
[00:22:19] I wanna ask you a whole bunch of questions in terms of, you know, what's working well. And that was, that was my standard question for every intro meeting that I had. What's working well for HR and what would you like to see us improve? And so it was just a long list of feedback right around let's celebrate the good things that the team's been doing, and then let's look and see how we can make things better.
[00:22:35] And also listening to my HR team. Like the, the people who've been doing it right, like what would they like to see better, easier so those are just a couple of couple of things. Yeah, absolutely. So yeah, so really it's that kind of 360 view, right? Checking in with all of your different stakeholders, including your own team.
[00:22:53] Yeah. Yeah. The listen and learn approach. Okay. Love it. So, you know, something else too that came up when you and I were chatting earlier was, you know, this idea of It can feel lonely sometimes for, for HR leaders, HR individuals or teams. Even in organizations. Right. Because you're you're in that middle of the organization, so you had found a kind of interesting group that, that you were finding some value in, and I was wondering if you could share a bit about that and about any other ways that you, that you kind of boil yourself up with some support and some, some inputs.
[00:23:28] Outside? Yeah. Yeah. As part of my onboarding, I was introduced to hr. Committee with related to F H C P. So for our industry, that's food and healthcare products, which is what Jameson's part of as a healthcare company. And so it's a group of HR leaders from different companies that we would, some we would consider competitors.
[00:23:49] And then some are in the other arena of food, but we all, we all sell in the, in the same customer arenas, right? So shoppers, drug mart, grocery stores, the Walmart, big box, that type of thing. So, I joined this group and I've joined these type of groups before and it's, you know, maybe there's a topic, a speaker, et cetera.
[00:24:08] But what I found with this group is so much sharing. Like ama, amazing, positive sharing. There's a lack. There's a lack of worry about competition, which I've seen with other groups and or sometimes people wanna hold on to their, to their own best practices. Oh. But, but this group, any one of us can send out an email, say, Hey, I'm working on this and I'm wondering how you do it.
[00:24:34] Or if you already have a model and 80% reply. 80%, 80% of these peers reply. And I was working also on h I S rfp. And we wanted a data, we wanted to know what the other folks were using actually. And I said, oh, I'll ask this group. And my h i s consultant was like, okay, a bit hesitant. Like, Hmm, you think you're actually gonna hear from them?
[00:24:55] And then I shot him every single answer I got, and he was like, like, that was another external feedback point, was it says you have a very participative group, like a very open, supportive group. And so yeah, I've, I've really enjoyed joining this team. Yeah. Well, and your energy just talking about, you can tell like it was so.
[00:25:11] So delightful, right? To get that kind of input and support. And it, it makes me think of, you know, when I think about particular the the first cohort of talent trust that went through, we still have our WhatsApp group that's active long after they completed and, and they're so open with sharing. I mean, we all are, you know, with, somebody will say, I'm working on.
[00:25:28] I need a strategy on this. I have no idea where to start. Does anybody, you know, point me in the right direction? Cuz yeah. Like I, I just think that so often you're looked at as you've gotta be the sole expert and you might tell yourself that you need to be, and yet that is not reasonable or feasible.
[00:25:44] Right? We can't know everything. And it's inspiring too to get these inputs and to sort of, You know, be able to experiment a little bit and sort through and see, well, what's gonna work for me and my reality. Yeah, absolutely. I'm glad on that. Yeah. Yeah. But that is a crazy response rate. I'm, I, cause I've been in a variety of groups too over time, and that's tremendous.
[00:26:03] Awesome. Well, let's, let's kind of move on to our next question. So, something that you know, I, I've, I've done quite a bit of writing about it, but it's really sort of smacking me in the forehead lately, is this idea of. Confidence for HR and talent leaders and it's just come up in a lot of conversations recently and I'm wondering what's, what's had the biggest impact on your confidence as a leader over the course of your career?
[00:26:28] The question is really hitting me right now as well. So it's, it's interesting that you asked me that because at GSK I was there 10 years. Right. And at the, and at the end of 10 years, I was very comfortable, confident, comfortable, like yes, just in my own skin. I knew my audiences, I knew my stakeholders, and I had that confidence there.
[00:26:50] I probably would've called it comfort, but it was probably confidence. And then shift over to a new company as I am now. And I just shared with a colleague, I'm eight, I'm eight months in, and I said, I'm, I'm not yet comfortable in my own skin. I'm not, so, I, I don't think I have that same level of confidence that I had at my previous employer.
[00:27:08] And so your, your question is what gives you that confidence? And I would say trust and relationships. And I, and I think they almost go hand in hand. And it's interesting for me because. As an HR person, of course I want people to trust me, right? I, I believe I'm trustworthy. I want people to see me as trustworthy, and I think you have to be trusted to be a really great HR partner.
[00:27:34] so, so trust huge. And if someone trusts me, then, then that instills confidence in me and that leads to that confidence interesting journey for me and I. Perhaps personal introspection. I'm an extrovert, so one would think relationships. Easy breezy, right? But interestingly for me, the journey for me to finally figure out that relationships and building relationships are key to my, to my role, to that confidence level, to how I get things done was really a, I think a late lesson for me actually.
[00:28:08] And I don't know. Yeah, I don't, I don't know why I don't think I've done a deep dive on that yet. But the second part of confidence for me is relationships and the investment that, and, and in this new role of course I asked for feedback after my first three months and one of the, one of the feedbacks I got was spend more time building relationships.
[00:28:27] And so I, I, you know, I take the feedback to heart, and again, it's building those relationships, getting to know the person, the stakeholders that I'm working with, how do each of them operate? What do they need? And, and getting to know them as people always helps. And sometimes it sounds like I'm stating the obvious, but for me, that's what comes with confidence, right?
[00:28:47] So if I go into a conversation where I'm feeling comfortable, I realize that I have trust and comp and, and relationship, trust and relationship. And then in other situations, in my current role where I'm not feeling a hundred percent, those are the two variables I think I'm missing. Right? Yeah, yeah. Oh, it's such a fascinating area because I think.
[00:29:08] You know, as you said, we, we, we need to be trusted. We, we want to be trusted. And often when you're in HR learning talent, you know, there's this, there's such a, a an orientation to service right? And wanting to add value. And sometimes I think we can go in really strong with that or be a li like as much as we might be extroverted or, you know, Lovely people go more straight to business and, and ironically forget the, the relationships.
[00:29:37] I'm not saying you're doing that, but like we can, we can sort of over. Overlook that occasionally. I know, I certainly relate to, to that as well. And yet, you know what's funny because when you were talking about that, I was like, oh, she's saying she came to that late, but actually before you even helped me with that one individual I was talking about at the top of our call I remember you showing up at pub night and, and you know, it was me and my fellow managers who we still hang out.
[00:30:02] We're still good friends. It's so funny all these years later, and you were like, You were new to the organization, you were kind of formal, but you were shaking your hands and talking, you know, and saying, hello, I'm Nicole. I'm your hr. Like that's my first introduction to you and I. Oh man, look at her.
[00:30:18] That's pretty like gutsy. She's like showing up at this pub and doesn't know any of us and, you know, trying to connect with us socially. So it's funny, eh, how we, how we perceive our ourselves in different situations versus what others see. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. Well, I appreciate you kind of, talking us through a little bit.
[00:30:38] I really also what really resonated there was you know, just doubling down on, you have to be trusted to be a great HR business partner because if there's any kind of obstacle in the way, then your clients aren't going to let, let you in wholly, and there's going to be missed opportunities for, for you to add that value, right?
[00:30:58] You or your team. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. And I think any HR story that people share, it went good or bad because. The partnership trusted each other or didn't. Right. So for you to come to me in that earlier situation and tell me everything that you had tried and done, and you know, feeling vulnerable, very vulnerable.
[00:31:20] Yes. Right? There had to have been some level of trust. You're like, okay, I'm gonna talk to Nicole and I trust her to whatever extent. And, and then you can have that conversation and both people can get the most value out of it, but the trust has to be built, earned, et cetera. So, yeah. Yeah. Critical. Yeah.
[00:31:36] Interesting. Well, we're coming to the end of our, our, our time together. So I've got one more question for you which is, you know, the world's kind of tough right now, and we're, we're seeing some, some industries in particular seeing some layoffs. There's talks about, you know, recession may or may or may not come to fruition, or maybe lighter than we expect.
[00:31:55] Who knows? What would you say, you know, even if those have no impact? Looking at overall the HR OD world, the world of people, and culture, biggest challenges facing leaders in people and culture today? Oh my goodness. That is a big question. I might answer the challenge question with an opportunity and, and they could be one in the same.
[00:32:17] I think for talent leaders it's upskilling building capabilities and confidence in our people leaders. Mm-hmm. So, I, I think people, leaders are critical to the employee experience. I think they're critical to the culture. And so I think that comes with challenges, right? Because there's, there's a group of people.
[00:32:40] Who are in roles with thing, with their quote, unquote day job that they need to do. But in addition to that, they are people leaders, which is also critical part of their day job, right, is that they, is that they lead, motivate, develop the organization's greatest asset, which is their people. And so for talent leaders, developing and building the best in class leaders, I would say is both challenge and opportunity for, for now and in the future.
[00:33:06] Yeah. I, I, I agree. Would you say any sort of specific competency area that you, that you see, not just at Jameson, but in general, knowing your travels, talking with peers and so on, like what, you know, when it comes to leadership, it's such a broad area. I do a lot of. Facilitation in that. So it, you know, like some, sometimes I'm talking about strategic thinking or or planning or it's critical conversations or it's service skills or a servant leader, you know, like runs the gamut.
[00:33:35] Is there any particular one that stands out for you? Yeah I think for me it's feedback. As a skill. And I think that covers one of the things that you mentioned actually, which is critical conversations, right? But feed feedback covers performance, performance improvement, performance development, feedback covers development, professional development, like helping in helping your, you know, one of your team members have career development in whichever way they they want or need.
[00:34:03] And feedback is part of those critical conversations, which never seem easy. They just never seem easy, right? If, if we think back to any of our conversations that we've had to have with people, and sometimes even giving good feedback for some reason is challenging, right? Oh, remember day, day one in coaching school and, and, and the prof saying, Brian, he's actually been a guest on the show, but he, I remember him saying, you know, Feedback, receiving feedback is a little bit it's akin to somebody sneaking up on you in a dark alley.
[00:34:33] Even if it's good, it's because there's something very very uncomfortable about it in general. Yes. Yeah. And, and giving and receiving feedback. Yeah, because that, that's that sneaking up on an alley, right? That someone says, so, gives you feedback and you're good or bad. You're like, Ooh, I don't know. I just heard something about me.
[00:34:50] And so I think the, I think the feedback skill capability is, is one of the critical ones for, for people leaders. I agree. I agree. Yeah, that's huge. That, that forms such a huge, I was just doing, you know, this leadership coaching kind of, series of workshops with, with a client, which had, you know, private coaching as well, embedded, and, and that was really where we spent most of our time was around how do you.
[00:35:14] maintain, preserve the relationship and help boy people up. And also be straight up, be clear and kind around what's working or what's not. And Progress can be made, but it does take quite a dose of intentionality and, and practice over time. It's not like you, you, figure it out and you're one and done.
[00:35:31] So yeah, I think that's a astute observation. Thank you for sharing that with us. Well, thank you so much for your time today. I've thoroughly enjoyed everything you've shared all sorts of amazing tidbits and particularly the peak kind of behind the curtains at the whole top employer process. So thank you, Nicole.
[00:35:49] Well, thank you very much, Lisa. Always a pleasure speaking with you. I always enjoy my time, so thank you.
