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[00:01:38] In our continued series of discussions with stakeholder leaders, those outside of HR and talent, today's episode explores the role of HR and talent from the perspective of a seasoned senior leader in operations and business development. Tune in to here, what works and what doesn't when it comes to earning a seat at the table with your clients.
[00:02:01] My guest is Colin Morris. Colin is Vice President of Property Solutions and Business Development at tert. Previously, he spent many years leading product management for Finastra, which was previously D n H, and resolve for over 20 years as a product management executive. He's helped organizations deliver tangible business results through technology platforms and digitization.
[00:02:22] Colin also happens to be one of my close friends and is a former colleague. I admire him to the moon and back. May you be lucky enough to work with a wonderful leader like this amongst your stakeholders. Enjoy the episode.
[00:02:37] Hello and welcome back to Talent Management Truce. I'm your host, Lisa Mitchell, and today I am delighted because I'm getting a chance to spend some time with a friend. I have Colin Morris with me today, and Colin is Vice President of Property Solutions and Business Development at Tart. Welcome to the show, Colin.
[00:03:01] Hey Lisa. Glad to be here. Thank you. So we go way, way back and we'll probably touch on that in the course of our conversation. I really appreciate you coming on the show today to provide a bit of the, the stakeholder perspective. So for listeners that are with me every week typically I'm interviewing leaders who, who lead talent, HR organization development functions to share their stories and, and advice and lessons learned and so on.
[00:03:27] And this year I'm kind of adding in a new. Perspective where, you know, we have to work with multiple stakeholders when you're in that, that organizational middle as HR professionals. So just getting some insight from, from people that, that we serve to see if that kind of helps us figure out how to be even more effective in our roles.
[00:03:46] So you represent, kind of in my mind, you know, that project management operations, business development, you've done quite a bit. So I thought it'd be really neat to get your insights today. Yeah, happy to share today. So could you maybe start by telling us a little bit about what you do at Ternet and a bit about your career path as well, please?
[00:04:08] Yeah, absolutely. So, as you said, you know, vice president of product strategy and business development for TERT Ternet. Of course. For those that don't know own and run the Land Registry System in Ontario. My role is on the commercial side of the business, so, We build commercial applications for stakeholders in the property ecosystem.
[00:04:31] So typically those will be lenders, mortgage brokers realtors and, and lawyers. So my focus is really be building and the digital applications that serve that community to help home buyers transact on a, on a real estate transaction. Okay. All right. So, so it's, it's really very it almost sounds it focused in some way, right?
[00:04:56] With the digital strategies. So, absolutely. Yeah. There's a significant bias to, to technology, but I consider myself the middle part between who we're selling to in technology. And so, my job's really to articulate the value proposition to the market. Understand sort of their pain points and, and needs and look to address those needs with technology applications.
[00:05:19] Okay. Okay. Got it. Thank you. So, and how did you get here? What, what, what brought you to, to this role along the way? I'd say I'd spent the best part of my career in building digital applications. So it was formally. d h which later became Fan Astra. My focus was building digital lending platforms for the student lending community in Canada.
[00:05:42] So I've always had a passion for technology. I've always had a passion for relationships. And I think I was kind of lucky in terms of where it landed in my career. Yeah. Being able to find a role that bridges both technology and and sort of the relationship piece with, you know, customers and partners really enjoy, always challenging always, Interesting in hearing about what people are struggling with and seeing if we can bring technology to, to solve those problems.
[00:06:10] Well, and I think, you know, so we, we work together just over, oh my God, it's 20 years ago. Isn't that nuts? So we've age better than I have, I must say. I dunno about that, but we were both at at edge lengths and I left in 2002. And I think you were focused on quality at the time, right? So you were doing sort of quality consultant consulting.
[00:06:32] So it sort of seems to have kind of been a thread that's continued along, like figuring out what, what the customers need and, and how to meet those needs. Yeah, absolutely. I, you know, I spent a great deal of the early part of my career development, quality management systems quite a bit on the process, re-engineering side.
[00:06:49] Great. And then part of that process re-engineering was how do we bring technology to bear particularly to address those sort of repetitive, non-value added tasks in a, in an organization. So, yeah, I think this was a, a natural progression of my career in that respect. Yeah, it's so, it's so neat to see, you know, where you've taken things.
[00:07:09] Right. After all this time, and just for listeners, so, so Colin and I, yes, we worked together 20 years ago, but we've actually been close friends ever since and, and are part of sort of this larger group of, of friends and. You know, got a chance to spend New Year's together and so, and so, it's, I'm really grateful for that friendships that, that that's, that's lasted all of this time.
[00:07:28] And I can tell you that Colin's just like one of the nicest, most collaborative and progressive person when it comes to to working with him as a, as a colleague. So it's, it's, it's gonna be particularly interesting. You're not exactly representing the ornery stakeholder that, that worries a lot of my clients.
[00:07:45] Who are talent leaders who are really working to, to influence and, and bring in, you know, the best possible. Solutions from a people perspective. And sometimes, you know, clients will get really tripped up about certain stakeholders where they feel like they can't seem to earn that seat at the table.
[00:08:04] They're, they're, you know, struggling to figure out what they really need, And so. You know, you being very collaborative and so on. I think you've probably, you're probably one of the easier clients out there when I think about what I know about you, but let's hear it from your part, part, particular experience.
[00:08:23] So you've worked with all kinds of HR l and d partners, I would say, over the years. So what would you say has been your best experience and what you liked about it? Yeah, I think that's a good question. I mean, first of all, I've always considered HR to be an integral part of the organization. And, you know, both HR and myself, I, I, I feel, are jointly responsible for managing a company's most valuable assets, which of course, it's people, right?
[00:08:52] I think one of the best experiences I've ever had with an HR business partner that I worked with in the past. And this was during the younger days of my becoming a, a leader, a manager. I was struggling to create a career path and growth framework for my employees. I wanted people on my team to know that investing in their growth and development was important to me, right?
[00:09:14] I wanted 'em to feel very much part of, I'm here to help you. I'm not just here to see what you can do for, you know, me and the organization and. I wanted to make sure they, they knew we were there to help them identify the skills and knowledge that you needed to be successful in their specific roles, and then create training programs to help 'em develop skills.
[00:09:33] But as a, a young manager, a young leader, I was really struggling about where do I start? What do I need to consider? Right? I worked with a very talented understanding, communicative, H R B P, and she helped me lay out a framework. First of all, she said, you know, I think you need to click create a clear organization chart so that people understand the different roles, positions, and skills for those roles.
[00:09:58] I think you need to have meaning of conversations with employees. Encourage them to get involved in planning their own growth and not assume you know what the best path is for them. She provided me with a whole plethora of resources and tools including, you know, suggesting that these employees that wanted to grow and be successful, take advantage of various projects, assignments, as well as just formal training.
[00:10:21] And she made it abundantly clear that we should establish fair procedures for promotion, one that was visible and transparent, and fosters a culture that valued accomplishment, equity, and respect. And then finally recommending that these individuals find mentors within the organization, PE people they looked up to.
[00:10:39] Right. And, that was the catalyst for a sequence of activities and a sequence of things that we put in place together that made a huge difference to how employees felt about working in the organization and how valued they felt as an employee. And I think that was probably one of my bo most memorable experiences of a really good HR business partner.
[00:11:02] Well, I love, I love that example. Cause it's an example of a of a pretty large initiative. Right? And something that was very important to you as, as their client. So let's break it down a little bit about what made it so positive. So you used some adjectives up front to describe communicative. I didn't catch them all.
[00:11:21] Yeah, with communicative. Empathetic. Empathetic yeah, but really wanting to, it was clear to me that she wanted to help and she wanted to be a part of a solution. It wasn't like, you know, go and figure this out on your own. I don't have time for you. And I've had those experiences. Okay. Okay. So it also sounds like she positioned it as, As a partnership.
[00:11:44] Right. So it's, it's cuz you used words like, you know, recommended and helped lay out a framework. So it wasn't as though she went away and tried to do it all on, on her own in a vacuum. No. In fact, if I think about the very first step that she had you know, sort of given me as, as advice was, To have this clear organization chart, along with understanding people's different positions and roles together.
[00:12:07] We, we came up with a career path for our product management team that had very clearly a series of senior positions, right. And then what she was able to help me do was to put into each of those into those boxes a set of roles and responsibilities. Clear requirements around skills, experience, and education.
[00:12:30] it became very clear, I think, for employees looking at that, that I know where I am on this organization chart and I know what I need to do in terms of differentiated experiences and skills to get to that next step. don't think I could have done that alone, to be quite frank. And she had access to you know, to market.
[00:12:50] In terms of doing the, you know, the, the evaluation of different employee roles she access to, to, to the market data that I, you know, I simply didn't have another time for. So she shared the burden of the, of the work wasn't just, you know, here's what I recommend go do. I really enjoyed that. Be helpful.
[00:13:07] Yeah. Real, a real sort of like, you know, back and forth and, and certainly like her, Why would you have access to market data? Right? Like that typically does resign in nature, but, so really using the, the resources she had available to help you with this. So what was the ultimate impact of being able to make this happen for your team?
[00:13:27] How did it help you as, as a leader in the long run run? Yeah, I think the very first thing that I noticed, it was apparent to me is, Our employee, our overall employee satisfaction results improved dramatically. Particularly around the, you know, career progression, career planning, obviously elements of the, of the actual survey itself.
[00:13:48] But so above and beyond that, people wanted to stay, right? They wanted to be part of a team and an organization where they knew they could grow their career. They knew that they could add. Valuable skills that would be transferrable and marketable either in this organization or, or elsewhere. And so there was, you know, in my mind there was this positive energy.
[00:14:08] Particularly when we've started getting them involved in creating some of those roles and responsibilities, really digging into what they're actually doing. And certainly our retention rates improved. Right. We, I remember that. we had a, I'm trying to remember the collective number, but we had a relatively small team, but we didn't have any we didn't have any employees leave our organization to go seek a job elsewhere.
[00:14:33] They couldn't, they, they could have gotten inside our organization cuz they knew if they put the, the time in and the effort and the energy and they knew how to get to that next step, that they would be rewarded. with that promotion. So I think that those were the, probably the, the more immediate impacts of the work that we did and really important impacts that that directly go to the bottom line especially.
[00:14:55] So, you mentioned that, you know, there was this positive energy, especially when we got them involved. And I just wanna underscore that for listeners too, because that is so critical, I think. You know, in our role helping internal clients is, is to make sure that we're, helping them see the opportunity to pull employees in, to involve them very much in their own development and, and engage them, because that's how we manage, change, build, buy-in.
[00:15:22] It's through involvement, asking people questions, even if decisions have been taken already, involve people in, you know, How are we going to implement, you know, the results of these decisions? Right. Give them some control. Absolutely. I, I think that's part of the buying process, isn't it? It's, you know, I, I, I couldn't tell you what my employees do every single day, but I bet you they can, and I bet you they can tell you what they think their most valuable contributions are.
[00:15:52] What I can do though, is bring expertise and experience, and so as an example, I'd say, This is fantastic. You know, you do all this wonderful stuff in valuable you know, all the valuable contributions you make, but have you ever developed a go-to-market plan for a B2B business? You know, you get these blank stares.
[00:16:11] You're like, okay, so if you're going to be preparing yourself for that next level, you need to know how to do this. Let me help you do that. Right? And so it's bringing that experience to bear about the things that they assume they know, but don't. Or things that they think they do well, but perhaps haven't mastered it.
[00:16:30] So, that's the collaboration, right? I'm sharing with them what I think is important from a career growth perspective, and they're sharing me the things they think is valuable that they're doing already. Right. Yeah, exactly. It's because we can't know all things, right? We've only got our own perspective.
[00:16:45] We've, we've just, by virtue of where we sit in an organization or with a team, we've got, you know, blinders on a little bit. They're sort of built in. And so it's, it's incumbent on necessary. Remember, you know, get input and, and involved and ask questions so that we're not just operating solo. And I love here too, something that, that's just.
[00:17:06] Coming up for me too is that you knew to get help like you, you decided to leverage the resource that you had in the form of this, this business partner and this particular example. Right? And not all young leaders do that. They might have this preconceived notion of hrs. I don't know the policy. Right.
[00:17:26] Enforcers or, or whatever, you know what I mean? So, so I think it's, it's kind of a wonderful thing that you knew you could do that and get that support. What about the flip side, Colin? When at some point, I'm not looking for names or, or, you know, we're not shaming anybody, but, but just like, if you think about more from the perspective of.
[00:17:45] A project or, or a collaboration that didn't really land for you, that you just sort of, it was bumpy. There was something about the approach that wasn't helpful? Yeah, no, really good question. Hang, I promise I won't throw anybody onto the bus. Yeah, it's not about that. But I think again, one of the most memorable ex, you know, experiences that I've had that didn't go so well And quite frankly, I've not had that many success.
[00:18:11] I'm really happy to say that, but I think the worst experience I've ever had is with an HR business partner, failed to provide adequate support for an employee issue, and it was quite frankly, unresponsive. And I'll just outlay line briefly the case. So people are, you know, aware of the context, but in this particular case an employee that reported into me had raised concerns about.
[00:18:33] The individual's sensitivity to certain sense and fragrances in the workplace and was looking for the organization to come up with solutions, maybe even possibly a, an accommodation of some sort. Right. And again, this is going back, you know, in my career. So this is probably before the time where this sort of thing become, became common practice.
[00:18:55] as a young leader, again, I was a unsure of what's reasonable here, right? Right. How do I help this employee who is quite, you know, quite frankly, a, a good performer, a valuable member of the team. But how do I go about helping this individual, providing the right support, making sure that I'm doing the right things but also not creating.
[00:19:18] A situation where other employees are going well, how come that person gets, you know, in this case their own office, you know? Yeah, right. So I, I wasn't sure how to help and I wasn't sure what the organization would support. And I went to my HR business partner at the time and said, can you help me?
[00:19:36] And I'll just tell you how I felt rather than what happened. It was, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Like this. This is sort of something you should handle on your own. And by the way, you know, we don't go around creating personal and private offices for non-executive, so that's completely off the table. You know, there was a, you know, a suggestion.
[00:19:56] This individual at the time wear a mask again before mask became Oh wow. But I just, there was no engagement, there was no empathy. There was no support. And I. Quite frankly felt like I was intruding and being a bit of a nuisance and, you know, even felt to be made a little bit stupid that I didn't, I couldn't handle this.
[00:20:18] Ugh. So yeah, like that wasn't a great experience. It was young, you know, early on, and I walked away thinking maybe I should know as a leader how to handle this. But I, I certainly didn't. And the employee, you know, When I went back and said, well, I've, I've tried, but I don't really know what we can do here.
[00:20:34] Let's maybe brainstorm together. I think that individual felt let down by the organization as well, because this was a serious health concern for that individual and really was looking for the organization to support, know, the request. So that's kind of the the one experience that sort of comes to memory.
[00:20:51] Yeah. Oh, I'm, I'm sorry you had that experience. It's tough, right? Like just even hearing it because. That's one of those sort of dicey situations for leaders. It's very uncomfortable cause you don't wanna put a foot wrong. Mm-hmm. And and it, and it, it's not, it was unprecedented for the organization at that point.
[00:21:08] It seems so. So there's no way you should or could know exactly what to do. This is exactly the kind of thing that you want leaders to consult with HR on. And, you know, it's also when you think about The idea of somebody asking for an accommodation. Those have to be taken very seriously. It's so critical.
[00:21:26] Right. In terms of well just it respect, but also legally, to be honest. So it's really surprising that, that it was kind of s slough off. Was there an eventual resolution or can you speak to that? Yeah, I wouldn't, it, there was a, a resolution of source. we ended up finding a An unused storeroom.
[00:21:45] Sounds terrible. I'm sure it probably was for the individual. But it was the only way that we could I isolate this individual from, you know, the sense that was obviously a health concern. So wasn't probably the best solution in the world, but we found one. But in this particular instance it wasn't long before.
[00:22:07] Individual found a, an alternative organization to, to work for. Yeah, so I, again, I just, I feel like that individual didn't feel supported, probably didn't feel cared about. I think I did as much as I could as a leader. And maybe looking back, I probably could have. Done something different, but I certainly didn't in that, in that experience, get the support from the a, my HR business partner.
[00:22:30] So, yeah. Yeah, yeah. So, so, so there's a very clear contrast here from the first example where you were using words like communicative, empathetic, supportive, partnering, and here it was, there was no partnering, there was no empathy, there was really very little communication, even so, mm-hmm. It really paints a vivid picture of what you appreciate when you're, when you're partnering with, with HR and talent leaders.
[00:22:58] So if you fast forward to today, see these are much earlier examples from your career what, you know, have, has that changed in terms of what you value or what you look for from your partners? I think because my roles changed, I think my needs as a Customer, if you like, or a partner has have also changed.
[00:23:18] And I, I think this will go to where I think this is leading to is, you know, what I value most? And I think what I would say now is I would, I look for, I value HR business PA partners that proactively identify and understand the business goals and needs. So they come to me and say, what's the most important things on your.
[00:23:41] List the priorities this year and how can I support you? They regularly communicate with me about my strategic objectives, my operational challenges, and my workforce requirements in a proactive manner rather than for me waiting for me to come to them or waiting until there's a problem to solve. And so that's different, right?
[00:24:00] And that's that's something I certainly get today in my role. I have a very, very strong supportive strategic HR. Function in our organization and I'm surrounded by wonderful people that are, are honestly there to help our business succeed. Right? Yeah. Very different from my younger days where I, I felt like I was working on a more tactical level and dealing like firefighting rather than thinking and acting strategically.
[00:24:28] Well, it's, it's interesting too, cuz it, it immediately makes me think of there's a thing Colin, in, in HR and talent, like, it's called the HR department maturity continuum, so to speak. You may have seen it and you know, it can apply to other, other disciplines as well. But it's this idea that, funny cuz we're talking about some examples that are almost 20 years, you know, 15, 20 years old.
[00:24:48] And even back then there was this you know, a lot of discussion around the need to move from transactional to transformational, from administrative to partnering. And, and when you even describe your needs, you know, you had this very sort of, Reactive kind of relationship. Like you had to go and seek out the help.
[00:25:07] It wasn't, you know, sort of ready at the ready. It was this, this detective work you had to do almost right. Even with the person you partnered with on the career path. It sounds like you had to, approach directly on that. Mm-hmm. It was sort of surfaced early, which isn't necessarily a bad thing.
[00:25:24] This does happen, but now you're, you're looking for and get. This re this proactive approach so that it, there's not like surprises or training emergencies, so to speak. Yeah, a a hundred percent. I think one of the bigger differences that I've noticed as well is in my current organization, we do a much better job of measuring the impact of HR initiatives, right?
[00:25:49] We collect and analyze data. We use that data. To identify areas of improvement and drive you know, make datadriven driven decisions to help the organization. I think that's very different from what, what are examples of, of sort of like HR data driven, like employee turnover, employee engagement, employee productivity, you know, the things that tell you and maybe leading indicators on the health of the organization from an employee experience perspective.
[00:26:18] Right, right. And that sits alongside and is all on, is on our, all of our collective balance scorecards. So now you've got business objectives, business outcomes linked to how HR supports that business. And, know, it's not always perfect, but I, it's the best example of a symbiotic relationship that I can think of.
[00:26:42] Well, cuz everybody's got their eye on the same ball, so to speak. Right? If, if people are your biggest, biggest cost and your greatest asset, it's, I, it's important that, that, you know, All leaders take that very seriously and understand how important it is to, to partner and, and figure out what, you know, what can we be doing each of us and as a group to impact those, you know, the turnover, the productivity, the engagement, the retention.
[00:27:08] So it's interesting. Absolutely, Lisa. Absolutely. And I think, you know, take that and contrast it to the backdrop of what we deal with. You know, if you think about GTA as a technology marketplace and all this talent, It's so difficult to attract talent. It's even harder to keep it. And you need HR alongside you, creating recruiting strategies that attract top talent design, training, development programs that keep that talent.
[00:27:35] And so it's vitally important particularly in the technology industry, particularly in the G T A, particularly at this time. Wow. So, and Ashley, I'm, I'm curious since you mentioned that you know, it's the war for talent, it's kind of this term that's been flying around for some time, but it sounds like you're seeing it in your sector and like, you know, I, cause I've had some people sort of say to me very cynically, ah, there's no, there's no war for talent.
[00:28:02] I have no problem finding people, but I feel like it's a bit industry specific. So what, what are you looking at in terms of. You know, time to fill critical roles. Yeah. I'd say it's probably getting a little better now, but I, I think the, the height of the talent wars, you, you termed, it was probably, you know, middle, late last year where, the large technology firms were simply throwing money out there, you know, you've got, you know, with population of people that will literally move anywhere for a signing bonus and a, you know, a higher salary.
[00:28:36] I'm not saying that's everybody. And it, it was a, a challenge to keep talent in the organization. But I think one of the things we did differently was. To talk about the total value, employee value proposition we talked about, not just compensation, which of course is always important, right? But we talked about access to programs, access to benefits things that we do on the social side, things that we do.
[00:29:00] From an e ESG perspective. So we talked about the total value prop to the employee, not just about the cash compensation component, which I think in my, again, from my personal opinion, got far too far too much limelight, if you like. It became the only thing that people focused on, right? You know, and, and thankfully while we did lose people, thankfully, I, you know, I'd say that we kept and retained our best talent and you know, we were probably weren't as injured by employed employees, departing on masses.
[00:29:31] Some organizations that, you know, I've heard about that. Yeah, it's, it's interesting that, you know, it was, it was so, it's like the money flying out, right? Come join us. Absolutely. You can do whatever you want. Work wherever you want. And now there's a bit of a correction in the technology industry, certainly with all the layoffs that the Googles and Microsofts and so on.
[00:29:49] Recent, recent weeks, right? And some of those same people like. Like you would say they wish they hadn't moved. Yeah. Oh, I know. Which makes me sad in that case. Yeah. Well, so I appreciate you sharing a little bit of your experience with that and just, just the, the focus on the total employee value proposition, cuz I think that's important for all organizations to really consider.
[00:30:10] what exactly do we offer? What's the greater whole? Because people do place value on those non-monetary aspects. They certainly do. It's, it's been a little trickier lately with so many of us virtual, right. And, and the, the return to office. Different companies have different approaches.
[00:30:27] So, yeah, I think the other thing that, you know, shouldn't get lost here is, Linking the employees work to sort of meaningful outcomes. What I mean by that is, one of the things I love about what I do is the money that we generate for, for our organization goes to pay pensioners, right? We're a part of an owner's company, and the money we generate is paying pensions, and I'm very proud of that.
[00:30:50] And so when you link the work that people do every day to value, they create. for a good cause, if you wanna call it that. I think that makes a real difference in my mind. It certainly does. Yeah. Yeah. Beautiful. I agree. I, I think those meaningful outcomes go a long way, especially to help people.
[00:31:09] You know, there's days where you just don't feel yourself, you feel low energy, you feel right, you've had a rough interaction with somebody maybe that you're dreading. And so, you know, being able to refocus on that purpose, on that meaning lets you kind of get over that bump, right. And keep going. Yeah.
[00:31:26] Well, let me take us to our last question. Our time has flown and I'd love to know if you'd be willing to share your number one leadership lesson over all these years leading teams. Oh, I'm not sure I was prepared for that one. Uh, Oh, my number one. What have I learnt? What have I learnt?
[00:31:47] I've learnt a lot, that's for sure. I, I've always considered myself a bit of a servant leader, and that sounds, you know, sort of mother imply, but I, I really feel that when em, employees feel that you care about them when they feel like you've got their backs, when they feel like they're doing meaningful work, they feel like they're being fairly treated.
[00:32:09] I think you get the best out of them and I, I really feel like, they'll do any almost anything for you. And I've had those experiences in my career where we've asked employees to work weekends, you know, give up vacation work evenings, and not because they're getting paid anymore, but you've gone to them and said, look, I really need your help on this.
[00:32:31] And so I think it's always important to be humble, in my opinion. I think, you know what? What's that saying? You never know who your next boss is. Be humble, be respectful. It doesn't matter where you are. And you know, be empathetic. People have real struggles. I think we start to treat employees like the valuable assets they are.
[00:32:49] The return on that investment is, you can't quantify it. No, I think that's probably what I've learned the most. You know, just to take this back to the HR angle, because that's what we've been talking about, I think for hr they can demonstrate their value every day to organizations when they take a proactive and business focused approach to the work they do.
[00:33:08] And it's sort of asking that question, how can I help the business? Yeah. How can I help the organization deliver on our, you know, on our collective goals? Cause at the end of the day, you're all one team, right? Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, I like that. How can I help the business? How can I help the organization?
[00:33:25] And it, it goes back. It's that proactive approach. It's that in involving approach, really. Right. It's because sometimes I do see, I'll be speaking to somebody who's You know, whether a client or they're in one of my talent talks or something and, and they're frustrated they can't get buy-in on something because they're prescribing.
[00:33:42] They don't like to be prescribed too. They're prescribing the really enthusiastic, rightfully so about some wonderful thing they, they think needs to go in. haven't started from the place of what does the client actually need and want. And sometimes you know the answer is, well, they don't know that's the problem.
[00:33:58] But our job is to help clients figure that out and be able to articulate it. That's part of the magic, I think. absolutely. Totally agree. Yeah. Yeah. Awesome. Well thank you so much. You've shared so much with us. Um, I think this is gonna be a really helpful conversation. I must listen. Thank you very much.
[00:34:18] Thank you for having me. I've really enjoyed it and of course, dear friend, and I hope this is helpful to people. Really enjoyed that. Thank you so much. It will be. Thank you.
