LM Ep 93
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There are different levels of leaders, and historically, the higher level leaders get the most support when it comes to training and coaching. While that's changing in many organizations, the new or early leader layer is often overlooked and under supported. Today's guest is a fellow coach who focuses specifically on coaching new leaders to help them be more effective earlier.
My guest is Cynthia Jameson. Cynthia is an experienced HR leader, executive coach, and podcast host as well. Cynthia has been a leader. And has supported leaders at all levels on all things people for over 35 [00:03:00] years. It's safe to say that her perspective is unique because she's seen, heard, and often cleaned up the steps and missteps that leaders make in the world of work.
Currently, she helps new leaders master the skills they need to navigate leadership in life. Cynthia is a valued friend and colleague of mine for several years now, and it was a pleasure having her on the show to discuss how she helps new leaders. Live authentically, enjoy.
Hello and welcome back to Talent Management Truth. I'm your host, Lisa Mitchell, and today I'm joined by my lovely guest, Cynthia Jameson. Cynthia is a leadership coach and a fairly long time friend and colleague. Actually. Welcome to the show, Cynthia. Thank you so much, Lisa, for having me. My pleasure.
So part of the reason that that I'm excited to have you on the show today is 'cause we both share a really long background in corporate and in talent management, and then have gone out on our own. So I think there'll be some, some interesting [00:04:00] synergies and also divergences in our, in our paths.
But perhaps you could share a bit with listeners about your unique path how you started out at the very beginning and how you kind of landed where you are now. Yes, I'm happy to do that. And it was interesting for me to just say, in starting this, I made some connections that I'm gonna share with you as I go through this little journey map.
I'm gonna call it a map because I feel like in retrospect, right, when we look back at it, it wasn't much like, most journeys. It was kind of, it was kind of a, a line, but also. I know is it wasn't a line, it was kind of often a step ahead, a step back, a step ahead, about a step back. And so I'm gonna go back to the beginning if that's okay with you, Lisa.
Yes. Because my journey was my journey was my own. And what that means is, When I graduated high school, I actually thought my life was over when I graduated high school. Oh, wow. I was like, [00:05:00] okay, that's it. That's all. All of the learning has stopped because I really enjoyed learning a lot, and most, if not all of my friends went off to university and that wasn't what was in the cards for me.
So I just went out and started working and I was very fortunate to be able to find a, find a job at an aba. I was literally packing meat, and so I remember standing there, I can almost feel it right now, wearing the freezer jacket and wearing the hard hat and the safety boots and thinking to myself, this cannot be it.
This cannot be the life. So can I just tell you something really funny that I didn't share? I worked at an aba. Oh my gosh. You did not. But yes I did. But it was, oh God, it was after second year university. It was between second and third year before. No, first and second before I went away to France. I remember that.
And it was the summer job and for whatever reason, I had always worked at, at my dad's pharmacy in the summers from a [00:06:00] really young age. And that year, I think the, the woman I usually would replace chose not to take vacation initially anyways, so I somehow got this job. I have no idea how in Toronto, young, in St.
Clair, get off the bus, smell the, yes, the smells. The smells. And I was a vegetarian at the time, so just think about that. And I was the receptionist, so I'd have. I could see people like you with the hard hats and all of the carcasses through the window. The freezer door window from my op, from my desk, and I dealt with the butchers coming in to pick their meat and they're covered.
Yes. And they'd gimme these bloody invoices. Oh my God. It's so funny that we share that. Strange, so many, so many, so many connections. Yes. Just one more of that. So many connections. Yes, absolutely. So here you are in your hard hatt and your park with the the animals. And so how long did you do that job?
So I did that job for a year. [00:07:00] And what I will tell you about that job is I started it literally this, the moment school was out, I started working there and I made it my mission to go and visit. At that time, it was the personnel office every day that I was working. So, You know, it wasn't like it is today where you knew your schedule ahead of time.
So sometimes it's staying home by the phone, waiting for them to call to be able to say, yeah, you ha, you, you have to come in today. So then I would get in the car, go in to, to do the thing. But anytime that I was working, I made it a point to go up to the personnel manager's office and just kind of. Check in, and there was this assistant who later became a really good friend of mine, but at the time, of course, that wasn't the, that wasn't the relationship we had.
And so she was like Fort Knox. I just could not seem to get through Fort Knox. However, I persisted and I kept coming back and I kept trying to kept coming back. You trying, what was, what was I just mind? I wanted to talk to the personnel [00:08:00] manager about, and I want. What other work that they had because I kept, I kept saying to myself like, this can't be it.
There has to be, there has to be more. And I could see, like when I came in every morning, like I could see this office. Hustling and bustling. And I'm like, well, surely they must have something that I could do that would be more me. Now I will say I was getting paid an incredible amount of money to do this meat packing work.
Wow. Yeah. But I, but I kept showing up and doing that. And so one fateful day, Fort Knox must have had the day off and the personnel manager was there. And so I finally got to ask my question and she said to me, well, what, what do you wanna do? And I'm like, I'll do anything that you want me to do. Then she said, so who are you?
Which was really important because all what, even though I had done that for months and months and months, I had never shared with anyone that I was the daughter of the construction foreman, because I wanted to get the job myself. Right. [00:09:00] I wanted to get it on my own accord, not because I was so-and-so's daughter.
Yeah. And so, So I went up and she said, she took out her little post-it pad and it was actually a memo pad, the pink one, and just wrote down my name and put it on her desk. And she said, thanks for stopping by. I'll be in touch if we have anything. And I went down and I remember just feeling so incredibly excited.
I was like, something's gonna happen. I have no idea what, and I can't remember when something did happen, but I did have somebody come down and find me on the floor and say, actually, we're bringing in a new system. And it was a hog ticketing system. So at the time, barcodes were just coming out and they were like, we need 10,000 of these babies and we need them, you know, in the next month.
And I'm like, okay. So I just transitioned from my freezer jacket to my, to my office wear and made 10,000 tickets. And I knew I had a month to do it, but I got it all done in two weeks. And that kind of became. The [00:10:00] beginning of the next thing. So then I was like in reception, and then I was in accounts payable, and then I was in accounts receivable.
And up until your question, Lisa, I would've, I would've always said, and people who would know me would say, yeah, that's true. Would've always said My career found me. But in retrospect, what I see now is it was that, that determination and persistence, that little, tiny voice inside that kept having me. Just come and knock on another door and ask another question in another way.
Can I help? Can I help? Can I help? Well, it's sort of like, you know, it makes me think of when you said you thought your life was over at the end of high school because you're like, oh, because you loved the learning aspect. And, and so you, you you kept knocking on doors for more learning, is what I'm hearing.
Yes, I did. Right. Like that's curiosity. Yeah. And, and I think, you know, I was actually a quote unquote girl Friday. Which is terrible language to use today. But I just kept going from a short-term assignment to a short-term assignment, to a short-term assignment. [00:11:00] And then one day the personnel manager, who was the same woman came out to me and she said, Hey, would you like to work in personnel?
And I'm like, yes. When do you need me to start? And, and just, just like every answer was just yes, just yes. So from a journey perspective, I went then to work in personnel. And what I, what I found it was really interesting because I was, for the most part, in my 35 year journey in hr, I was mostly in male dominated industries and one of few, one of few women, females.
That was, that was there from an HR perspective, and that's been a thread throughout most of my career. Isn't it interesting how that happens, right? How you, you don't choose these, these themes or these sort of, you know, repetitive elements and yet we can, we can, we can identify them in hindsight.
Yeah, absolutely. And, and I actually didn't even notice it at the time. It [00:12:00] just was what it was. I. Right. So, so I remember, you know, going and asking for opportunities. So later on as I progressed there was, you know, we, we brought in new systems and we brought in new things for timekeeping and et cetera.
And I, and I wanted one of those opportunities. And, and the C F O actually said to me, actually, I don't think you can do it. Wow. But because you keep asking, but because you keep asking, I will give you 30 days. And I said, okay, that's all I need is 30 days. And I was like, challenge accepted. Yeah. And I, and I worked with the, with the other individual and I mean, he wanted me to succeed.
I wanted to succeed. We both wanted to be able to like do some cross training and things like that. And so even just, that's just another example of. Putting forward and just making it work, figuring it out. I didn't have all the answers. Yeah. Yeah. But I could figure, I could figure it out. And I think, you know, I was with that organization for 20 [00:13:00] plus years and we went through a merger while I was there and, and I was, that was one of the highlights of my career was being able to bring like staff through, this is what it was when it was a privately owned company to a big corporation.
Right. It was, it was a, a wonderful opportunity to be able to learn. Well, what strikes me here is that your insatiable curiosity, right? That desire to learn really shows up in this overall attitude, if I could figure it out, you know, so you are willing to accept these challenges. Even where somebody expressed doubt, I could figure it out.
It reminds me of, you know, Marie Forleo's book. Everything is Figure Outable. Which, which her mom used to say to her, and I really like that. Absolutely. Because it's so helpful when you're, you're kinda, you know, stuck around something. You're, you're deferring a decision or you're feeling in conflict around some issue and to, to sort of say, okay, hang on.
So I may not be clear yet. Like it's really given me permission. I might not be clear right now, but everything's figureoutable. [00:14:00] So. So you've got that quote behind you share it with us. Yes. Kinda links in. What is it with? I can't. It is as you start to walk the way appears, and I think it's, Take on Rumi's quote.
However, I didn't know that. Oh, really? Until someone told me. Yeah. Interesting. And I, and I, I think what I would, what I would also offer is, Regardless of where I have certainly found myself in sometimes what I perceive to be a situation where there was no way out. There were always, there are always ways, right?
It's kind of coming back to yourself and taking a pause and just looking at it from a different perspective. Because even, even though I have been with that organization for so long, there were still things that occurred. That were not part of my plan, that I had to then figure out another way forward.
Yeah. I had to respond too and figure it out. Yeah. I used to joke that I was in one, in [00:15:00] one organization where I did most of my growing up initially for eight years, and then another one for 10. And, and it sort of felt like any time when I started to get a bit dissatisfied or restless or something, something else would shift that, you know, or another opportunity would appear that.
I had so many careers in those, those first couple decades, you know, different, permutations of, of roles and so on, that it always kept me interested. But it was sort of like, you know, I think it's a normal cycle to ebb and flow within different contexts like that. I. So I'd like to jump from, so as we continue with looking at this career piece, your most recent role you were before you went out on your own a leadership development consultant internally for an organization.
So for a lot of listeners, they would relate to that. Tell us a little bit about how you eventually got to that point. Well, it's, it's interesting and I would say. Because I still had this voice in my mind saying, you know, this isn't it. This isn't it. There was, there was always a question, [00:16:00] and then whenever I would arrive in the role or the new promotion or whatever, there would be an element of, this is wonderful and what's next?
Yes, this is wonderful. And what's next? So I made a couple of transitions. So in the organization that we acquired, I made a step change there, took a, I took a step back personally. At the time I was raising my kids just to be able to spend more time with them and do things differently. And that offered up incredible challenges in so far as like shutting down mills and starting up a new one, which was also just new.
Then much like anybody that would be listening that would've had an experience in, you know, the eighties or the nineties getting a severance package. Right. So my, my, my role was made redundant. Mm-hmm. And so I was the, I was the HR professional who, you know, delivered all of those conversations and all of those letters to all of the people, only to turn around and receive one myself.
[00:17:00] Oh. My friend went through that. Well, brutal. She orchestrated the whole thing and then, yeah, yeah. Well, and so what I learned there is if they'll do it with you, they'll do it to you. Yeah. However, I mean, that was, in retrospect, that was a great thing because then it allowed me to be able to go out and, and work in a brand new place where I had, you know, people who didn't know me did people who didn't know my work.
And what was fascinating about that is I started to see my value, right? Yeah, right. Like when you, when you grow up in a place, sometimes people still see you as the kid that you were when you. When you join that. Very true. Yeah. Right. And so it gave me, yeah, you have to open, well, it's funny, like a door closed on you essentially, but it more, more so opened up a giant door.
Yes, absolutely. And so I, then I, that was a transition into working for a really big organization within Atlantic [00:18:00] Canada that I really, I just loved, I loved. I loved everything about the role. I will say it was a bit humbling to join because I had like 25 years experience. I had done all these things and I started at a maternity leave, so I, you know, I ate my humble pie.
'cause I was like, well, goodness, I, I would've hoped that I could have landed something different. And also it was, in retrospect, one of the best decisions I ever made. Hmm. Right. Because I gave, I had opportunity to not only go in on maternity leave replacement, but also pick up other pieces because I had other experiences and could see gaps that others couldn't see because they had been there.
Right. Right. So this, this fresh eyes and fresh perspective really served me well. And then, you know, there was another intersection there of change where I was in. Living in the East coast and then my next opportunity, I thought my [00:19:00] next opportunity was gonna be there. On the succession plan, all of the things, you know, have all of the letters to, to, you know, we really value you, et cetera, et cetera.
And then people change their minds. Sometimes that's what happens. People change their minds, And so my oppor my next opportunity, what brought me to Ontario. And so I did the same thing that I did with my previous employer. I just did another arm of the organization and started working there. We had a huge transformation.
And just was, I loved all of that and everything that I learned, it was like boots on the floor. You were with the people again. So it's almost like my experience kind of coming full circle. Yes. And then through personal circumstances ended up you know, transitioning to my last employer, which was where I did the, The leadership assessment work.
So I don't know if I should tell you the employer's names or not, but I can. There's no reason why I can't. Yeah, if, if you want or people can look you up on LinkedIn, it's all good. It's up to you. [00:20:00] Well, I mean, the biggest employers I worked for is I worked with it was Hub Meat Packers to start with.
They were, I. Acquired by Maple Leaf Foods. And then I worked with the Irving Corporation, who's, oh, Irving, they're huge. Of the east coast. Yeah. Yeah. And so they brought me to Ontario, which was a fabulous experience on the senior leadership team. You know, doing all of the things. Hr, I did have a small stint at a produce company, which was amazing.
then just life, like the commute between where I was living and where I was working wasn't sustainable. And so there was an opportunity that presented itself up here in Sine Shores for Bruce Power. So I joined them. I was there for five, six years up until last year. And so I started as a business partner, help supporting lots of change that was going on within the organization.
Had lots of fabulous client groups, and then went into talent management. So I've always had my hands in talent management. Not from a formal perspective, but more from a, you know, the [00:21:00] one-stop shop. Right, right. So there were like always from a team perspective, always had a team, but it was a small team and they did everything.
Yeah, yeah. Like the full employee experience kind of thing. The full employee experience and the language we would put on it today is talent management. We wouldn't have had that language for sure. so interesting. It's such a, a, a, a wonderful path. I, I love hearing, you know, how people kind of moved along and it sounds like you've sort of been this collector of experiences and sort of building and then it created new questions and new wants and, you know, moving along.
So, so you left. Bruce Power. You left the corporate world just over a year ago, which is, I remember talking about it before it happened. It's wild. And, and here you are, you're a podcaster now, you're a leadership coach and you have this focus on new leaders which I would love to, to delve into and understand more around why you chose them.
'cause it's kind of like, here's, here's a bit more [00:22:00] context for my question. I started out as a, as a teacher as you know, and I was a French immersion teacher for uh, middle school. My mom, my first year teaching was her last year. She was also a teacher and she was primary, and she used to say to me, I don't know how you deal with those middle school kids though.
And I'd be like, how do you deal with those little tiny critters And you know, like we both teachers and yet completely. Flabbergasted how the other could, you know, work with whatever, each group. So it, it is so interesting to me. So when I think about my, my mom loving, you know, the little guys and me loving the middle school and you love the new leaders, I actually love them too, but I don't tend to I don't know if it is attract them or it's, it tends to be more.
The director, VP C suite that come into to my practice. So, so tell me about, like, how did you get so clear on this focus? Because you are very clear in your, you know, on your LinkedIn profile and so on, and whenever we speak, [00:23:00] I've gotten really clear on it because I, I feel as though that was the 20 year old version of myself.
Okay. Right. Like, like being able to. To be able to give myself the tools that I didn't have. Right. So my, my school was the do it yourself, right? Like, like it was, it was, you just have to figure this out for yourself. And I was, I was very lucky in the sense that I just kept trying things to figure out what would work and I made lots of mistakes.
Absolutely. I made lots of mistakes and also I figured different things out in different ways forward. And so what I see today, and I've spent a lot of time just as a business partner and an HR talent, you know, doing the assessments for leaders, that is the group of people that I feel needs so much help.
I. Support and guidance. And they're often, not always, but often overlooked because organizations make budgets and [00:24:00] they, you know, they budget money and they wanna make sure that you know, the people who are gonna be running the company and the higher successors and all of that. And I understand all of that.
And also we are all in this together. And so from an engagement perspective, if organizations are really wanting. To connect the dots between the C-suite and the frontline. Like there's a clay layer there, right? Yes. Like messages don't go down. Messages don't come up. And these frontline leaders are carrying a huge, enormous load.
Yes. And I just, my, my heart goes out to them. I've been them. I see them, I support them, and they can do so much. When they're given even just a few tools. Well, and it's so interesting 'cause almost every organization I I work with or speak to, you know, this is a, a really universal thing around, you [00:25:00] know, I can't tell you how many people have said to me, we, you know, a lot of our leaders, they were great doers and they got promoted, but they're not actually leaders.
And so we need to do something about that. Or we're, we we're aware of this, we're not quite sure how to crack that nut. And what I appreciate about what you're saying and your, your particular focus. Is, and, and my own experience when I do work with new leaders, it's, it's really an opportunity to help people, you know, set up for success really early.
So you eliminate a lot of the stress, the burnout, which I'm hoping we'll still get a chance touch on. Mm-hmm. That's associated with, with that constant trial and error. Right? Like I think that yes, a hundred percent leaders can be stronger earlier with this kind of support. And I, I mean, one of the, the challenges that I see today is if we aren't able to help them help themselves, they won't take the jobs.
Right? Because, because really when you think about what's in it, for them to take that on, It's gonna be, there's a [00:26:00] lot more that's being added to their plate and they're not being given the tools and the things that they need to be successful. So, you know, back in my Irving days, we created a program for new leaders by Irving leaders so that we could educate them.
On how to be successful, how to engage people, what engagement surveys were like, what delegation looked like. We, we would walk them through how to do those things that seem so incredibly simple to HR professionals and also are not incredibly simple to new leaders because their background, everything is different.
Right. Their experiences are not the same. Right. And so they are. They are, in my experience, so thirsty. For anything that you can give them. They want to do good work. They want to go out there and do a good job, and they want to be able to delegate. They just don't know where to start. Yeah. Yeah. And, and I, I find it just incredibly rewarding to, to see their [00:27:00] growth and know that I'm playing just a small role in that.
But to see them just go out and like, take the world on fire and a lot of these, a lot of these leaders get promoted not because they're looking for the promotion, but because they've now learned. The skills required. To communicate up, to delegate, to empower, to engage, to include, to keep knocking on that personnel door.
Yeah. Yes. Keep knocking on the personnel door. Yeah. Well, and this idea, I think a lot of listeners would, would go, oh, well we have a new leaders training program. You know, that's, that's fairly common in, in a lot of our organizations. Not all for sure. But you know, I think about in my last organization, we.
I put in a Aspiring Leaders program, which was a full year. So, because it was about, you know, a lot of people are curious or, or interested or have been tapped, but they're not sure if it's for them and so on. So this was even before there was an opportunity and it was a whole selection process and, and, mm-hmm.
Really important program. But I think, you know, I just, I just offer that up, that, that. It's that [00:28:00] and the new leader training and once they're in role, you know, ongoing, how do we continuously lift people up? Because where they are, it shifts, right? We're all evolving along with the organization. Yes, absolutely.
And I'm a big fan of the and. Yes. Right. Because even for them, like. All of us and anyone listening, like two things can be true at the same time. You can feel like you're in a really bad place and be excited about how you're gonna find your way forward. Those things can be true at the same time. Yeah, and having, and even, even just learning the mental construct to have space for both or hold space for both is sometimes just incredibly spacious and delicious for the person that's that they don't see that.
Right. They don't see that. Yeah, well, it's am It's always amazing to me, you know, how often in coaching work and one-to-one coaching work, which is where I'd like to kind of hear more about your [00:29:00] practice here, but how often that concept of, and versus either or that gray thinking versus black and white is, is new for people right now.
It was new for me too at one point. I, I, Hey, me too. I've just been traveling with it for a while and it's been one of the most helpful. Kind of shifts that I've, that I've learned, you know, as a tool, right? Like how am I looking at this in a binary way? Like how, what would it look like if I could do it?
Both, both ways, right? Have both things to some degree, yes. In your one-on-one coaching. So you have this focus on new leaders. I know you do work through direct clients and with BetterUp. And so tell me a little bit about how you bring this this life experience you've had being such a go-getter and such a persistent, curious learner and this love of the and concept into play with your clients.
I think the, the way that I do that is my, what I can help them with [00:30:00] is fairly clear, right? Like, I, so my, my, what I, what I'm known for is I can help you become authentic, like live and lead in the way that is comfortable and good for you. Also, like tackling that mental, mental fitness piece, so the stress part, the tools to be able to manage that as well as career and life transition because, I think looking back I see that I was always in a state of transition, right?
And, and I think now more than ever within the world that we live in, there's so much transition and the pace is just increasing. And so I can see the need for those tools because we know that stress is going up. Right. We, we know that. And so what are we doing to help that? How are we putting tools in the hands of people that can, that can use that?
Because they may not, may or may not be able to say no. Yeah. Right. So I think that's, that's, that's how it's. That's how it works. Yeah, [00:31:00] I appreciate that. I think yeah, so helping people live authentically and then the tools to tackle stress and then manage transitions was sort of the three things you highlighted there.
And I think that is very clear around, around how you work with people. So let's talk a bit about the stress and the burnout factor, because you and I, amongst the many similarities, not JUSTS and so on, that we share. It is that we've both been through burnout and have had long careers in, in corporate and then our entrepreneurs.
And so what, what do you see when happening out there right now for clients and organizations with burnout and stress? I just see, I see humans not not being able to function in a way that they were used to being able to function, and there's so much change that are, that is going on for them that I think they are.
Sometimes confused, right? I think organizations with with good intent. We can still confuse people with good intent, right? So [00:32:00] the changes that are going on from, even if we take a small example of, you know, we are now an employer that works remotely, oh, 12 months later, no, we're now not. We're going back to the, oh no, now we're gonna be hybrid.
So those sorts of messages create confusion for people and. If the communications aren't done in a way where we're actually thoughtful and intentional about that and connecting the dots for them about why we changed the decision, what's in it for them? Yes. The staff to be able to come in there, I think it can, can sometimes just lead to stress and there's so much, there's so much on the human being's plate and.
Before we got on this call, we were talking about, you know, the circle right of a person's life and then what we know about it. So there's so much within an individual's life and there's so little about what we know about it. And what I'm seeing and hearing from my clients, and I've experienced this [00:33:00] myself, is people are so busy in the doing that there isn't time taken to even.
Be curious about the person you're sitting beside. You know, who is this human? What is it that motivates them? What is it that lights them up? What are some of the things that they're tackling today? And when we don't make those intentional connections, it can feel really lonely. Yeah. And that also can lead to a state of like, Just stress and not belonging.
And then, you know, the thing that can trip people up quite often, myself included, is, you know, this inner dialogue when you know we, we have meaning making, meaning seeking brains. And we make things mean. It means something about us when someone doesn't. Say hello. Yeah. Or when someone doesn't even, like, you know, they don't even acknowledge you with a smile or, you know, any of these common human things, which seems so simple and are so [00:34:00] much missing right now.
Yeah. It's, it's interesting, you know, this, this what you mentioned around people being so busy doing, you know, I wrote down they're not being. Yeah. They get, and, and that's what I relate to personally. You know, in terms of my experience, you know, coming in and out of burnout was, I think it's partly, you know, how I'm wired a little bit, right?
Just to, just to be on fire driving results, like that's kind of lots of variety, lots of speed. And what happened was I would get so focused on that. I would forget to be in the moment or to notice my own needs, the needs of other people and so on. How did it show up for you? It showed up the same way In the sense that I noticed it, I noticed it about myself. And also when I went to like one of the roles that I took, it was incredibly fascinating to me because I started the position and I was there almost three months, Lisa, before anyone asked me [00:35:00] anything about myself. Oh my God. And so I was just, I was fascinated about that.
And I was curious because I was like, okay, no one really.
so three months is a long time. Three months is a long time. Nobody to be curious about you at all. It sort of says something about the culture at the time. It does, doesn't it? What did you do? What did you do in response? I actually just decided to let it play out and see what I could learn by it. And so I did, and I do actually remember the day that somebody came over and said to me, so, do you have any kids?
And then it was like, okay, so somebody actually does care, right? So it kind of brought back some of those, you know, good human feelings. 'cause you want to think, you wanna have good feelings about people that you work with, that they do care because they've hired you to come and do this work. And I think it does speak to the culture.
And it also, like in retrospect, I think what I see is as [00:36:00] organizations who are incredibly busy because they are. They are organizations are incredibly busy and this was no different. There was a lot being asked of all of the, the staff to be able to come and do more with less, and that was communicated.
And also there's a cost to that, right? There's a cost to everything. I think the cost is sometimes just the human interaction, taking time to just acknowledge, to see the hear, to acknowledge the human being in front of you, and it only takes a moment, but it's so incredibly per important and it's almost one of the first things to go.
Yeah, it's, it's tough. I think, you know, As you say that, what's, what's what that's making me think of is, is really for listeners, you know, a talent management truth right now is that talent leaders, HR leaders must model the way, and, and you know, and I know that you struggle as well as Cynthia and I do with, with [00:37:00] taking time, with making time to be not just do and to, to reflect and.
Think longer term and so on. It's, it's hard for everybody. And yet it's, I I think that as multipliers, talent and HR professionals, they're the ones that can help organizations learn to create space. You mentioned to me, Cynthia, before we started recording that you were you had done two back to back-to-back programs.
You were like, shoot, in retrospect, I should have built in more space to kind of think about it, reflect about it, you know, not just keep doing and, and I've. Been in the same boat for sure. We, we need to, that's the gift we can bring to organizations is to normalize space making for thought, reflection, and connection so that, you know, we're not in this place where people feel that nobody's, nobody caress about who they actually are.
Right? Yeah. They've never been asked a question about themselves. Yeah. And I, and I think [00:38:00] what you. To kind of add on to what you're saying, I know this from my work with leaders today, like they are looking to HR to help them, to guide them, to give them the tools that they need so that they can do their work better for the organization as well.
And I think one of the things that I have learned, and maybe it'll resonate with both you and your listeners, is we do sometimes what's familiar to us. So, you know, I can look back on my own behavior and say, yeah, you worked too many hours. You said yes to too many things. You didn't say no to anything.
You were just trying to, you know, to please other people and give them what they needed to do so that they could go on about their day. And also, now what I see is we need, in order for things to change, we have to change. We can't keep, you know, if we keep doing the same thing, we're gonna keep getting what we always.
Have. So learning how to create [00:39:00] space, looking at the calendar and then committing, 'cause that's the other piece, right? So it's one thing for me to put it in my calendar, but it's another one to, for me to have my own back and say, I'm committing to me. Yeah. I've created this intention and I'm going to honor it.
Yeah. Yes. Because I am as important as everyone else that I'm serving. Yeah. Yeah. Love this. We sadly are coming to the end of our conversation here and we've covered a lot of ground. You know, I'd, I'd really love for listeners to check out your podcast which is called Who Are You To Lead Anyway?
I believe Yes, it is. You got it right. Yes. And I think you can find it on all of the main platforms along with this show. So, please do check out Cynthia's show there. I think that would be really useful for you. And, you know, let's just land with one final question. When you look at I don't know you because you're this, this, this voracious learner and reader and consumer of training [00:40:00] and learning, what would you say has been, you know, The most impactful learning resource that you've encountered over your career?
Oh my gosh. The most impactful learning resource.
The most impactful learning resource.
This is my brain, Lisa. Searching for the most impactful learning resource. I guess there's so many. Well, and, and, and I think what I would say is it's you. And here's, here's what I mean by that. So if you are able to bring yourself and create a bit of space for you to just look at a particular situation, circumstance, or something, whatever the thing is that you're wanting to be different or better for you, is to just evaluate for yourself, what is it that I'm doing that's working well for me?
What is not working well for me? And then spend some time, and then what could I do differently? Right? Just spend some time to just ponder that question. What [00:41:00] could I not, what should I, 'cause that brings an entirely different energy, but what would, what could I and what's exciting? Like what would light me up and how can I bring the energy that I have and the passion that I have to whatever it is that I want to be better within my life?
So I think it's, I think the resource is the human listening. yeah. And that's so useful because I, I don't think I got that for a very long time. Right. And when I first really started delving into wanting to do coaching, and so it was two years before I left my last organization. And listeners, you know, if you've been listening for a while, I'm not encouraging people to go out and leave at all.
But on my own personal journey, I remember discovering these same questions that you just shared, what's working, what's not. 'cause something felt awry and I wasn't completely sure what it was. And so I have this original journal entry that I, I was like, I need to start writing again. I hadn't done it very long time.
And I had written these questions out and I wrote a whole bunch of stuff, and then it was like, well, what could be [00:42:00] possible? What if I could get some of that, less of that? And I didn't have the answer yet. At the same time, it put me on this path to discovery and to eventually deciding what my next adventure was going to be.
It was choose my own adventure. Yes. Yes. Choose your own adventure and, and I think it's what, what also we can only see from the rear view mirror is that one, we are in something and it feels incredibly challenging and like there's just no other way. There are paths for you. In retrospect, you can see that those things are happening for you.
Right? Like it, it all comes together. It all comes together. We don't often think that, or we don't have faith in that, or we don't believe in that, but it does, right? And so I think even asking yourself in the moment, like, what's the opportunity or possibility, which is a more Inquisitive question to, to ask yourself what's [00:43:00] possible.
Yeah. What's possible, because there's so much possibility, possibility thinking, and, and just let your, like, let your brain go there. And even if you find, you know, part of the idea that isn't, isn't that great? I mean, bring a friend or a partner or someone you trust to kind of brainstorm with you because they also see a different version of you.
Yeah. Absolutely. Wonderful. Well, thank you so much for, for sharing that, that advice around creating space for, you know, evaluating for yourself, choosing your own adventure. I think that's really gonna resonate with a lot of people. Whether you've been working for 20, 30 years or five or 10 or one even, it doesn't matter.
These, these questions are helpful at all sorts of different points along the way because. We continually change and evolve. So great conversation. Thank you, Cynthia, for coming on and spending time with me today. I really appreciate it. You are incredibly welcome. It was my pleasure. I always enjoy being in your presence, Lisa.
Likewise. Thank you so [00:44:00] much. Thank you.
