LM Ep 94
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How do you operationalize values in an organization? In today's episode, my guest shares what she and her team have put in place to help values come to life. My guest is Jeanette Batika. Jeanette is Vice President of People and Culture at the Daniels Corporation, one of Canada's largest and [00:02:00] preeminent builders and developers.
In this episode of Talent Management Truths, you'll discover what it's like to be the first HR leader in an organization that's been around for many years. Tools to help employees who aren't in an office. Construction workers, for example, feel connected and stay up to date with organizational news and examples of how to operationalize values.
Jeanette was a wonderful guest and so generous in sharing her approach. Enjoy and thanks for listening.
Hello and welcome back to Talent Management Truth. I'm your host, Lisa Mitchell, and today I'm joined by Jeanette Batika.
Jeanette is Vice President of People and Culture at Daniels Corporation. Welcome to the show, Jeanette. Hi Lisa. Thanks so much for having me. It's my pleasure. So let's begin by having you share a little bit about you, your career journey, and what you do today at Daniels. Okay, great. I've been at Daniels for probably [00:03:00] about six years and I've worked in human resources the whole time.
Prior to that, I was working in the legal world in human resources and. My journey, there was a little rocky. I started out in environmental studies, then I became a massage therapist. Oh, wow. And then, yes, I know I had to do some exploration about what I was good at and what interested me. So I found human resources.
I started in the legal field and from day one, I knew it was a good fit. I knew I was meant to do that, and I actually couldn't believe that people were getting paid to do this. I still feel the same way, which is surprising. And what is it that that made you feel like, oh, I'm home. It's so, my top two values are making a difference and connecting with people and there isn't really a better I guess.
Occupation than human resources, right? You're impacting people's lives, you're impacting an organization and you're connecting with people on a daily [00:04:00] basis. So it's that multiplier effect, which I think is exactly, yeah. So, so, energizing and rewarding. Absolutely. Yes. Okay. Well say, say a little bit more about, you know, the zigzags you took.
'cause it, I didn't know about the massage therapist piece. That's fun. Yeah, so as a kid, actually I was a very nervous kid and the world worried me, and so I thought, what can I do to make the world a better place? I was 10 years old and this is what I thought about when other people were like playing with their friends.
I was a bit of a like odd child that way. And so I went into environmental studies initially and I went to university for environmental studies, but you can't really incite too much change, right? Because the problem is so huge mm-hmm. That your impact is minimal. So I left that and I thought, okay, what can I do?
I really wanna make a difference. I love people, I love connecting with people, and I thought massage therapy, right? So I did this studying for that. It was two years. It was amazing. [00:05:00] And then I started massaging and you do connect with people and you do help with people, but it wasn't for me. So physically it wasn't for me.
And it was a little bit boring for me, to be honest with you. My mind repetitive. My was continually going. Yes. So the challenge wasn't there. And so I thought, okay, what can I do? I did a ton of soul searching at the time. There weren't the resources we have now, so it's just figuring it out on my own, right?
Yeah. What am I good at? What do I like to do? Where are my skills? And then I thought, okay, I'm going to try human resources. And my best friend's sister was working in the field and she was looking for an HR assistant, so I went to go work for her, and that was it. Well, I so appreciate you giving a little more context around, around the, the zigzags.
'cause I think it's so fascinating, right? Because some people say to me, oh, I bet all of the people on your show you know, they grew up in HR and I'm different. And I'm like, no, not so much. I, I, I, I have no idea scientifically what the split is, but it's probably 50 50. Some people that found it [00:06:00] much later trained for something different.
Like me, I trained a French teacher, you know, Yeah, and I ran a payment department at, at one point, like, you know, who knew, and then others who, it was literally what they studied at school. And then they came out and, and, and followed it along and everybody finds their own path. It's kind of neat the, just hearing about like, recognizing the connection part worked for you, and yet the lack of variety did not.
Yes. And so how can I marry those two things? And I think that's really important for us as we move along and figure out what's next for us. And, and, you know, at each stage of the game, And in hr there's a ton of variety, right? Every day is different, and it's like a puzzle, everything you're trying to solve and then unravel this puzzle and find out the best solution for an individual or the organization.
So I love that piece as well. Yeah, it's a beautiful puzzle, really. I mean, and, and, and. goodness. Help the people that, that are black and white only. You know, in terms of their view, it's really important to be able to see all of the shades [00:07:00] of gray, right? There's so many degrees of, how you can, you can respond to different things that show up when you're hr it's just so huge the, the variety.
It's so true. And then I can't even imagine restricting yourself to black and white and the frustration you must feel. Yeah. Right. Especially with people. 'cause people are so complex and layered. And if you're not recognizing that, I, I would assume you'd be hitting a wall. Most times, and I think you and I are gonna, we're gonna link back to that very point actually when we, when we dig into communication.
Let's, let's have you speak a little bit though. I think it's really been interesting for you leaving the legal sector where you kinda, you know, honed your HR skills and you moved into Daniel's Corporation what, two years ago or so. Six years ago, actually. Six. I'm sorry. Six years. Okay. So you're at Daniel's.
So they're creating housing, which we all know is, is much needed and they're very well known and well regarded company, and they didn't have really a centralized formal HR function until you [00:08:00] got there. Exactly. So they, they were around 25 years before they decided to onboard HR and accept HR into their lives.
Before that it was their VP of finance, Judy Lem, who is such a phenomenal person. She was taking care of that HR side of things, but it wasn't her. Her favorite thing to do, right? Yeah. So I came in and initially they wanted me to do, create policies for the organization because they, they knew that they needed that some boundaries, right?
To give to the managers and employees. And it was so interesting 'cause initially they thought that we should be creating different policies for different groups because the groups were so different, right. And the needs of the organization were so different depending on the area. as we came together as a team, we realized, no, we can have similar policies because we do have very similar values and the mission is the exact same for the entire organization.
So [00:09:00] having those discussions really helped break down some historical silos that had been built. So I'd, I'd like to hear more about that because what, what went through my head just now, when you were talking about, they were picturing that they'd need different policies for different groups. And I think for listeners, a lot of you have, organizations where employees are just geographically dispersed or very distinct, you know, in the different groups and silos.
It's a pretty universal thing, but this idea of ha creating separate policies, that's, wow, that could be a, a real bees nest right down the road as people move around and it's just confusing for people to implement. So what went through my head was, I can't remember the name of the leader, but she had implemented that policy dress for your day or, or dress appropriately, right as the dress code instead of this big long thing.
And then, and then they trained managers about how to help people with that. So dress for your day could mean that, You're in construction, okay? You're, you're on site, so clearly you're going to wear your p p E and do all this stuff you need to do. And in the office, if you're meeting clients, you're gonna address differently from the day you're not.
Or [00:10:00] if you're at home, yoga pants go all the way. Right? Exactly. Yeah. So what's another example of a policy where you, you, you helped people see that you didn't need all of these distinctions? Simple things like a sick day policy or yeah, even dress code or I'm trying to think. Any policy we created, to be honest with you, Lisa.
Okay. It was, it was like simple things. I'm just intrigued about how you help people sort of go from, from seeing the differences to seeing the similarities.
Yeah. Okay. That's, I, yeah, absolutely. And it was very intentional and it's listening, right, because. It would be listening to all the people managers and what their struggles are and listening to the employees and what their frustrations are, and there were threads, there was, there were common threads and just picking out those threads and say, okay, you have this frustration, but this person over here has this frustration.
And then addressing those issues. Because they're usually [00:11:00] very common issues. Right. And then bundling them together and letting people know that, Hey, you're struggling with this, but so is so and so, and this person, and this person. They're like, oh, okay. So what do we do to solve that problem together? So just, I, I think helping with communication, building bridges between different groups as well and letting them know they're not alone, that we're all experiencing the same thing.
I think that really helped. And you know what's so funny here is, is that. Louis I Eisen was a previous guest on the podcast, so I encourage people to go back and listen. So he specializes in helping organizations write policy, language and processes in a way that is respectful of, of adults and not demeaning and not.
Authoritarian and so on and, and you know, upholds, D E I B. Anyway, he's, he's a wonderful guy. But it's so funny 'cause here we're talking about policies and you might think, oh p like HR always sort of bristles a bit about being reduced to the policy [00:12:00] makers. Right. It, we don't wanna be that. And yet here you're talking about this being an exercise in building bridges across Absolutely.
So beautiful. And you think that's what I think. Like when I was talking to one of our VPs and I asked him for feedback, like, where did HR make the biggest impact? Because I wanna make sure that I'm adding value to the podcast, right? And he said, honestly, it's not glamorous, but it really helped setting policies and procedures because it gave me.
Things to fall back on. It gave me a commonality. I know what other team members are doing, and at first I was like, man, that's boring, really. Policies and procedures, that's where HR adds value. But then once you think about it, yes, you're providing guidance, right? You're providing a common language, you're providing a base for everyone to kind of jump off of.
So that also creating that equality so that one group say accounting isn't doing all these different things and everyone's like, Hey, that's not fair. Why [00:13:00] does accounting get to do these things? And we don't. Right? So it's creating this equality between groups and be between employees because everyone's looking like to see what their neighbor is doing as well.
Right. Absolutely. So it gets back to instead of, you know, focusing on differences, it's, it's, it's treating everybody individually as appropriate and yet let's, let's focus on similarities. Right, right. That's from a connection perspective, it's all Exactly. It's still layered. Right. All of this stuff. It's so layered.
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So, so with the, you started to talk about equality, When we first met, you know, and some of the steps you took there to really help. That be better understood within the culture. Can you, can you give a little bit of context around that? Sure. And this is layered as well, right?
Everything in HR as we know is Yes. Layered and multifaceted. So this came So it first came across as policies, right? So where do we create consistency for people? So that was one, right? Because some groups were doing things a little differently [00:14:00] than other groups just because of the internal group culture.
So creating some consistency that, so that was one. Also bringing diversity, equity, and inclusion to Daniels. So we have a committee we're trying to implement or we are, we have implemented new hire training. Training for all employees. Having some tough discussions around diversity, a equity inclusion we have a theme for every year, so doing education around that.
We have de and i book club, so bringing that to the organization, it's been amazing. And I know anyone who is in the de and i space, it's, it's a bit of a climb, right? Like you're pushing a boulder uphill. Yeah. You're working against people's beliefs. So it can be exhausting in a way. tiring sometimes.
But what else are you going to do? Right? You're not going to not do it. So you might as well just move forward. And then. The other piece of equity is changing perspectives, because if you grow up in an [00:15:00] organization, you have a very set perspective, right? The people you interact with, you're not interacting with the entire organization, so you see things very differently.
But if HR comes in and brings you this other perspective, Hey, other groups are doing this, or employees are feeling this way, right? This is an entirely new perspective. Is being brought to you that you wouldn't have had access to otherwise. And sometimes those conversations are hard. They're uncomfortable, but there's really no other way.
Yes. I think that, you know, that concepts you raise around changing perspectives, I think that's one of the most essential Benefits that HR and talent professionals bring to organizations, right? Is is the, because they're, they're working very broadly, right? So listeners, I'm sure everybody's sort of going, raising their hand.
That's me. You know, you're, you're operating broadly and interacting with people across all of the organizations. So you are[00:16:00] you know, oftentimes the, the only people that do that are the C O C E O C O O kind of thing. But here you are getting that really broad view. And then having this deep expertise or specialist view as well within your own domain.
And so I think that we do see things differently and in, in a more 360 kind of holistic way. And, and if we aren't, then we know that's probably our growth edge, right? Like our, our learning edge. But being able to bring that. Back to all of the different clients that we deal with, all of the different stakeholders and help people see in a more holistic way is, is a huge, huge point of value in terms of the value proposition for this function.
absolutely. I totally agree with you, Lisa. It's almost like personal development, right? Or pro or professional development. You would go on this track by yourself. If you're not getting feedback from other people, you are not going to grow. You're not going to grow outside of your very narrow realm that you see, right?
Yeah. [00:17:00] So it's just like an organization. You're on this path, you're going in this. Realm. But if you're not getting feedback from your employees, from your senior level managers who might be afraid to say things, or if there's like some disgruntled pocket over here, what are they saying? Why are they saying it?
Where's the value added to the organization? And to bring all those pieces in so that we can grow as a company. Otherwise, there's a limitation on the growth, right? Yeah. Oh, yes. Which is not what we want. No. And everybody's growing at different rates and so on. It, it is really really fascinating though helping people see more broadly that's strategic thinking, right.
Helping our sellers and others. So we've been digging into a little bit about the quality piece and, and how you were laying the foundation. And something that you had mentioned to me when we first met as well that really resonated, was. how you worked to ensure communication was strong and that you're constantly building on that from a change management perspective.
Tell us a little bit about that journey. 'cause I know it's still, it's always a work in progress with [00:18:00] communication. It is, yeah. And what, this came to me when I was at B L G, so I was in human resources at board and LA Survey, it's a law firm and I, they were going through a lot of change at the time. In hr, you need so much help around change because if you are communicating.
What you think you should be communicating. It's not fulsome, right? You're not taking someone else's perspective. So I did the Prosci Agar training. Yes, I, I'm certified too. Yeah, it's phenomenal. It's phenomenal. It changes your perspective completely. And taking that piece of change management and linking it to human resources and communication allows you to connect to people in a different way because you're asking yourself, What's in it for them, right?
You're doing this change, but what's in it for me? And almost every department level of the organization has a different answer to what's in it for me. And if you are not listening to them on what they need, and if you're not [00:19:00] answering that question, then your change might as well go out the window.
Right. The other piece with change management, I found over the years that I didn't appreciate it when I first started doing it was the amount of. Circling back that change management requires. So you implement a change and if you just leave it, well, good luck to you because it probably is not going to fly.
So it's checking in with people, seeing what's happening, reevaluating what you're doing, re communicating. Communicating even clearer. Like I feel like there's you, you can't communicate enough, right? And when we have a change in place, even at Daniel's, people say, well, I didn't know that. And in my head I'm like, but I communicated that like five times already, but it needs to be seven.
I'm kidding. It does. It does need to be seven. And or my message wasn't clear and or it wasn't in the right format. Right. And maybe for that specific person, I needed to go talk to them in person. So that's also on me, right? And looking at where can I. Improve next time or [00:20:00] mis checking for understanding.
Right? Yeah. So part of this checking back and this, this circular looping, this is part of what I, what I teach in my one-on-one and, and group coaching with, with leaders is, is this idea of recalibrating all the way along, right? So continuously, so looking at. A program, a strategy, any, any sort of endeavor or initiative as something that's evolving all the time.
And so you, you know, you may get the, the clearest shared perspective on what is the change we're moving towards. But you have to keep checking in. Is this still the change now that we've gotten this far on the journey? It's so true. Yeah. Yes, absolutely. And the amount of commitment that it, that change requires actually floors me.
So if, if you think it's an easy change, right? Let's just do an org change where there's a different reporting structure, and you think, all right, let's implement this change. Three months. No, no, no. Right? The amount of commitment that it requires to implement the change, make [00:21:00] sure the communication, doing the circle back, the check-ins, and the consistency that requires.
Sometimes it surprises me, actually. Yeah. There's a real rigor and discipline that's required to do it, right? Yes. I mean, and, and Mo I would say most people don't have e enough time or bandwidth to, to do it to the fullest that they would like. And, and that, you know, but I think it's, it's one of those things, well, don't abandon before you try.
Like even if you can't do it to the nth degree like Prosci would teach, right? With the really, like say you don't have extra resources to be tracking all this stuff and everything. But be asking yourself continuously the question, when was the last time I checked in to ensure everybody's, you know, understanding is the same as mine?
Yes. Is it time, is it time to go back and see what else has shifted that I might know about or, or share what shifted on my end? You know what I mean in terms of making sure that the message is getting through and that people are feeling supported. Because you could Exactly. 'cause you could assume that everything is fine.
[00:22:00] Yeah. But once you ask, then that's when like the floodgates open, right? Yeah. Well, darn assumptions, they always get us into trouble. Right, exactly. But something that we do all the time, right. We just sort of get into a groove and no news is good news is sort of, you know, an old adage, but unfortunately quite true.
So we need to move out of that. So that's the whole thing with change management, I think is. Is continuously be asking the question, okay, where, where are we at? Where's everybody else at? How do we check in? How do we know? Right? What are, what are the signs telling us this? So when it comes to communication at Daniels and some of the things you've put in place to support the different changes and, and ongoing business as usual, what are some of the communications change management tools that you've embedded?
If you wouldn't mind sharing. We have a newsletter that we didn't really have before. We didn't have before, so we have a de and i newsletter, okay? And we also have something called the Daniels Dish. And so the Daniels [00:23:00] dish, the introduction is typically a note to our employees from our C O o Jake Cohen about what's going on.
And it's usually in line with our values, right? So reinforcing our values. Continuously. We're trying to highlight different employees in the organization as well to create that interconnectedness and that community, that feeling of community at work. We highlight our projects, what's going on. Our comms team, our internal comms team that's fairly new, probably a year or two new to us, they've taken over the Daniel dish.
Megan Arid, who is the director of the group, is doing a phenomenal job running themes through each, each quarter when we do the dish and making sure that we're trying to incorporate the entire organization. So it's a communication tool, right? To foster this openness and communication for the entire organization.
And how do you ensure so, so newsletter is great. It's just like I always think about and so is online training and so on, but if you've got people [00:24:00] in. Jobs like construction or healthcare or you know, hospitality for listeners, you know, they're not sitting around at, you know, their computer reading a newsletter, doing online training and so on.
So how have you helped that kind of area of the business? I. That's such a great question. 'cause they like to remind us that they're not at their computers every day. Yeah. And it's absolutely fair. Right? We don't want them to be at their computers every day. So we've looked at the stats and typically when people are going into the newsletter, they're going in after.
So we send it out. They're going in a, a day later, two days later, three days later. So they're looking it up on their own time. We've also started with SharePoint. So we have an intranet, yeah. Where we're posting newsletters, where we're posting information. Their shared spaces. So HR has their space, accounting has their space.
Every department like internal communications, marketing communications. So we're using that also as a communication tool. So anytime someone needs a reference, they can go to the intranet and we're [00:25:00] trying to build that up over time. That's a work in progress for us. Got it. Okay. Okay. Yeah, it's, it's, it's interesting, like you, you said, let you know, they look at it on their own time.
Like you have to kind of trust at some point. Like people aren't gonna be, you know, they're not at their desk, so they're not answering emails every two seconds. Like they're, they're gonna, like, they've gotta wait until they have a moment, a break to be able to look at that. And sometimes the adjustment is on our end, right?
Adjusting expectations. Absolutely. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. And our site teams compromise probably about 75% of our organization. And so their voice is not loud, unfortunately, but we're trying to make it louder, right? So when we're implementing things, we're trying to say, okay, 75% of our organization, they're on site.
So what does this mean for them? Right? What can we do? What can we not do? What works for them? Yeah. Yeah. Beautiful. And I'm sure that's going to evolve continuously over time. I, I come from that background too, where you get people [00:26:00] broadly distributed and, and not always at computers. And so how do you meet those needs?
It's, it's fascinating. All right, so let's kind of jump over to a slightly different topic, but it's all linked. In the end, I'm interested to, to learn more about how you've been operationalizing your values, and I think mission and vision are in there too. Yes. So Daniel has a very strong foundation in social impact and environmental impact.
And historically they never really talked about it because the president, Mitchell Cohen, he's a very humble fellow and he wants to make a difference in the world, but he doesn't really talk about it, right? He, he does it, he's very focused. He's built this organization that does amazing things, but he is not shutting it from the rooftops.
And so about two years ago there's a new generation, I guess, of VPs at Daniels and they were asking for a clarification of our mission, [00:27:00] purpose, and values, so that when they're doing their work, they have a very clear focus. So we worked with a external organization to come up with our mission, purpose, and values.
And it was very nice. It was well packaged. It didn't. Like steer away from who we are. It just reconfirmed who we were as an organization and it was a very good message for us to deliver to our employees. But I didn't want to just leave it at that because. That's great, but then what do we do with that?
Right? Yeah. How do you live it day to day? What does that look like exactly. And so we wanted to make sure that we were giving our employees the most tools, resources, and understanding to be able to take that and use it as a resource, right? How do I make decisions? How do I show up at work? So what we did is we did This thing called operationalizing our values.
I leaned on Brene Brown's work. So if you go to her website, there's a whole strategy and basically steps on how you do it, and that's [00:28:00] what we did. So we met with each group. We small groups, usually 20 no more. And the C o o, Jay Cohen and I, we met with probably 70% and my team took the rest of the team members and we actually walked them through.
These are our values. What are the behaviors? What do those behaviors look like in your day-to-day activities? And that was phenomenal. Honestly. It was such a privilege to be able to talk to the teams and connect with them, see what their thoughts are, ideas were, and the consistency and thread across the organization.
It was, you can't make that stuff up, right? Like it was, it was beautiful. Honestly, not for lack of being super cheesy, but it was. So we're taking those behaviors, we're going to put them into performance reviews. And we're basing the performance reviews on our values. And then we're also doing smart goals.
So historically, Daniels didn't really do performance reviews. We're a very relaxed culture and [00:29:00] historically felt performance reviews were militant in a way. Right. You are not really building relationships with, you should be doing that. You shouldn't be doing that. Your, your performance is satisfactory.
Like, It's, it's a bit of an approach that the organization didn't wanna take. So instead what we're doing is we are reflecting and we're saying, okay, how do we give feedback? How do we give feedback with clear intentions? Right? What is our intention? Our intention is to grow the employee, to make sure they're at their best self and to grow the manager and the organization as a whole so that everyone is kind of progressing along together.
We're taking the approach in terms of feedback around the values. So if someone's not showing up, what does that look like? What are the behaviors, the specific behaviors? Not like you're lazy. You're not doing a good job. So what are the specific behaviors that you're not seeing and how do they not align with our values?
How do they not align with the expectations? Right. So we're trying to be very clear, and you and I [00:30:00] talked about this before, Brene Brown, clear is kind right? And having those unclear is unkind and unclear is so unkind, right? And giving our people, managers the tools to have those conversations. 'cause those conversations are uncomfortable, they're awkward.
Most of us have never been taught to have. Open and honest conversations, right? If you're mad at someone, you typically ignore them or say something unkind, right? So reteaching people or teaching people those skills has been a part of the journey as well in terms of operationalizing our values. And then in the fall, we're going to be launching our values.
Sorry. Launching the performance reviews with the values. The other piece that we've done around that is the Love Awards, so living our values everyday awards. And we're including those awards in the Daniels dish. And the awards are around how people are showing up, right, in terms of our values.
And we're trying to be very specific about the behaviors so that they're repeatable and [00:31:00] it's clear to everyone what, what the expectations are. So, so much good stuff in here. So I just wanna kind of underscore some of it for listeners here because, you know, you were talking about how historically the organization didn't do performance management in a, in a, you know, formal way, at any rate.
Mm-hmm. And they thought it was kind of militant and it, it may, you know, if, if any listeners or in an organization like that and you're trying to figure out how to, how to start shifting it. I mean, a great question to ask is, What if we could help people be really clear on expectations and how to grow and develop without it being militant.
So what if we could do that and still make it palatable and how, you know, and helpful, not like a big chore kind of thing. I think that's a great place to start. The other thing that really stood out for me too is how you. Chose to focus on, you know, with people and brought this language in. This is about feedback and we've gotta be clear on the intention, which is to raise up to grow employees, managers in the organization.
When I, you know, [00:32:00] facilitate and do team coaching around this stuff, you know, I often talk about all communication breakdown happens when our intention is out of alignment with our impact. So this is why we, I love that start with intention, right? We get really, really clear and we actually articulate it.
This comes up in one-on-one coaching all the time. A lot of, a lot of clients we're just practicing them, stating their intention and context before they, they ask, you know, questions and launch into conversation at hand. So it could be, you know, Jeanette You know, you are a very strong contributor here, particularly over here in the project management side.
You've really made a difference in terms of cost savings and so on. And, and, you know, today I wanna talk about your, your overall performance. And I do have some feedback for you. Some of which meh isn't gonna feel as good, but we need to talk about it, right? And about how we're gonna work together to help you grow.
You know, something like that. So, I'm just riffing a little bit here, but I think that's the piece that. Leaders [00:33:00] struggle with and where they need the most support from talent and HR professionals, right? Is, is how to put the language around it, take the intention out, get clear on what it is, and actually say it upfront.
This might be a bit uncomfortable. My intention, though, I'm invested enough in you is so that you know you can grow and do better. And any thoughts on that? Yeah. I feel like it's so challenging for folks because it puts you in a place of vulnerability, right? Yes. Like, if you and I are gonna have a tough conversation, I might screw this up, right?
Yeah. I'm not good at this. This is gonna be really hard for me. I might not get the language right. I might be way out in left field and there might be huge conflict, and that makes me look like I don't know what I'm doing. Right, that we're being vulnerable with each other. I'm a manager. I should know.
This should already, we shouldn't even have to have this conversation if I'm a good manager, right? So we're telling our ourselves all these stories and then we're like, oh man, I have to be vulnerable right now. This is very scary. [00:34:00] But once you do it, it's scary. I'm not gonna lie, right? You're gonna be nervous.
It's hard to do, but you do it once, you might screw up, you do it again, you screw up a little less. Right? Yeah. And it's just a habit that you build and as you continue to show up for your employees in the way that you want someone to show up for you, you feel good about yourself. Yeah. And you think, I don't wanna go back to that other way of doing that.
Right. So I think once people get a taste of it, they get hooked. Because then they realize, oh my God, I was going around being unclear and that felt unkind and I felt, ew. Like, you know, 'cause it's funny 'cause leaders will stop themselves from saying, you know what needs to be said, feedback is to build up constructive.
It's build up, not tear down. And, and when they put their heads in the sand, like, oh, it's still uncomfortable. They're worried about, I don't wanna hurt so-and-so's feelings. But it's usually around them. They don't, they don't wanna be uncomfortable. Exactly. So you have to learn that the other type of uncomfortable, which is being very clear and kind is not as [00:35:00] ucky.
Right. Especially if there are consequences where poor performance or issues continue to to get worse. Yeah. And we all see that in hr, right? Yes. So someone comes to you and you, someone's like, oh, I have a performance issue with someone. You're like, okay, talk to me about it. How long has it been going on for?
Well, six months to a year. You're like, okay. Yeah. And they haven't to do That's right. Because it's hard. It's, it's hard for me too. Right. Oh, for sure. Oh, and I'm constantly practicing myself, you know, like, you know, and for listeners too, I have a, a worksheet that I, that I've developed over the years that I share with, with clients.
And if you're interested, my clear and kind conversation worksheet. So feel free to, to message me and I'll share that with you as a resource. But I think this is so, so compelling, this whole piece here. The other piece I wanted to talk about that you had mentioned is that, The way you've been teaching your leaders on how to give feedback, it's based on the newest brain science.
Could you pull the curtain back for us on [00:36:00] that? Yeah, absolutely. So, I'm working with a consultant, Jennifer ett on this, and she's done a ton of research behind this. And what it is, is really thinking about when someone is ready to give. When someone is ready to receive feedback, right? So if you're sitting down with someone and you're saying to them, well, let's have a tough conversation about your, you coming in late the other day, are you showing up late at the meeting?
Right? All of a sudden the person will say, warning, warning, trouble, trouble. And they will shut down, right? So, flight, fight, or freeze. That's it. And if you want to give feedback, that's really not going to be received because the person is in emergency mode, right? Yes. And so the brain science around that is allow the person's guard to come down, right?
So when you're giving feedback, state your intention. Be descriptive about the behaviors. [00:37:00] Make sure you are being kind, right? So create an environment as well where they feel comfortable with you and creating that psychological safety. So if you're jumping in the deep end with this person once a year and giving them a list of the things that they've done wrong throughout the year, you're not going to hear you, right?
Nope. So it's building that relationship, building that psychological trust with them, making sure that it's a safe space, that they're okay to give you feedback, that you're okay to give them feedback, that there's a relationship of trust. Then there's an openness, right? Your brain is not going to be on fire when someone's giving you feedback.
You probably still won't like it, but there'll be some reflection after the fact 'cause it's built in trust. Like Lisa, if you ever think of someone. Who you didn't trust, you didn't like them, you didn't trust them, you didn't respect them, and they're giving you feedback. Right. What are you gonna do with that feedback?
Yeah. You toss it in the garbage and say they don't know what they're talking about. Exactly. And yeah, the, the, the phrase I often use is, you've gotta prepare your audience to hear you. Prepare them. So [00:38:00] that means it's back to what you were saying earlier, it's that idea of thinking what's, what's in it for me from their perspective?
Mm-hmm. Right. So, so part, part of the reason I brought up that worksheet is because it's a very intentional way of preparing for these conversations where you think through, well, what does Jeanette need? What does she may be worried about? What is she excited about? What questions might she have? So it's anticipating, it's literally, you know, in, in your mind's eye, kinda walking around and stepping in that person's shoes and to the best of your ability, right?
And trying to think about, and how do I want them to. The other model I love is, what do I want them to know, feel, believe, and do. As a result of this conversation. So I don't want them to feel attacked and I don't want them to believe that I'm, you know, evil and don't value them. Right? Yeah. I want, so if, if I want them to know, to feel that I value them and believe that I have their back, then I need to actually say that.
Yeah. Yeah. And the amount of [00:39:00] empathy and perspective taking that requires, and yes, you have to pause, right? You can't do that quickly. So the amount of time that takes, like you're investing so much time in, in someone, and I think they feel that when you're like, okay, let's talk about this. And you're talking about it from their point of view, their needs, and that they feel that you see them, right?
I see who you are. I see what you're contributing. I see what you're struggling with. Let's work on this together. Yeah. Beautiful. Oh boy. There's so, so much goodness here. And I, and I am sure that Daniels is grateful to have you on the case and bringing bringing this work to bear because it's only gonna make for an even stronger organization, one that's already so, so successful and well known.
So before we wrap up, we're almost at the end. Is there anything, you know, in terms of resources, you know, like something that's really been impactful for you along your career journey that you'd like to share with listeners? A few things. Honestly, the Dare to Lead leadership training is I can't say enough about it.
I read [00:40:00] the Dare to Lead book by Brene Brown and I was like, oh, wonderful. Wow. Yes, I, I absolutely get this. And I, I see the impact, right? It's very holistic and it's looking. It's helping people, it's helping managers, it's helping employees, it's helping an organization. So I've leaned on that a lot.
We've brought that training to Daniels. The feedback from the people managers has been great. The feedback from the people who the people managers are managing has been great. Right? Wonderful. It's been shift for those, for those employees, which is great. They feel like a greater sense of belonging, which is what our goal is, which is what we're going for.
Yeah, so Rene, Rene Brown. So she's one of my favorites. I probably mentioned the show before. She kind of changed the, the trajectory of my, my life when I first read gifts of Imperfection. One of her early ones, I think it's her second book, and I read it on a beach in Mexico and it got me thinking about what was next and so and dare to elitist.
Is fabulous, and thanks for giving us a bit of a peek into what, you [00:41:00] know, how the training has had such an impact. I really appreciate that. Yeah, my pleasure. Thank you very much, Jeanette. What a wonderful conversation. I so appreciate your taking the time today. Yeah, thank you Lisa. That was great.
