LM Ep 95
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Oh, September. It's back to school time, back from vacation time, back to work time. You still have four months left until the end of the year. To finish strong and to plan for the new year, [00:01:00] imagine what you could accomplish with the proper support. Support in the form of one-on-one coaching and mentoring from me.
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How do you build strategy into your work? Does strategy work occur annually at the end of each week during quarterly all team meetings, or is it baked into the day to day? Today's guest has a helpful philosophy around how to keep strategy top of mind, even when it's early days and much work [00:02:00] is still manual.
My guest is Katrina McFadden. Katrina is currently Chief people officer of Organogram, a cannabis company, and she brings over 20 years experience across several industries and organizations. She also holds an engineering degree and an M B A. In this episode of Talent Management Truce, you'll discover how a background as an engineer can translate surprisingly well to the HR and talent world.
A specific example of demonstrating clear action to employees based on engagement, survey data, and realistic tips on how to create space for you and your team to work on strategic niche initiatives. I adored this conversation with Katrina. She's so thoughtful and articulate. I know you will enjoy it too.
Thanks for listening. Hello and welcome back to Talent Management Truce. I'm your host, Lisa Mitchell, and today I have the pleasure of meeting with Katrina McFadden. Katrina is the Chief People Officer, of [00:03:00] Organogram. Welcome to the show, Katrina.
GMT20230816-144424_Katrina Recording_separate2: Thanks, Lisa. It's.
GMT20230816-144424_LIsa Recording_separate1: So let's begin by sharing with the listeners a little bit about yourself, your background and, and what you do at Organogram.
GMT20230816-144424_Katrina Recording_separate2: Yeah, happy to. you know, I, I've been in sort of this space of people and talent for, you know, I guess now, well over 15 years, but I actually, I started out in a very different space, and I think what I always love about people in HR is that they, I. They often come from very different, very different backgrounds.
Right. But, you know, I, I definitely think my path you know, shaped me. Definitely. I started out as an engineer actually working in in the plant. And then I moved from there into HR because I really became inspired by how. sort of the people side of the business and investing in people and investing in that experience and creating an environment where people thrive was the real differentiator for organizations.
And that's, that's when I made that move into HR on the organizational development piece. And I've spent my career working primarily in manufacturing organizations, different [00:04:00] manufacturing organizations, because I think that's where my heart is in spaces like OD and business partnering and.
and talent. But you know, over the last number of years of my career, really kind of fulfilled that sort of senior, senior HR leader within the organization and, and have loved doing that in a variety of different organizations. And that's really kind of helped shape who I am and how I see that work.
And, and brought me to Organogram. Organogram is a licensed producer of cannabis. So we're quite a young and new organization. we started in 2013, but really took off in legalization. We were a hundred people in in two, 2018, and then we moved up. We're a thousand people now. So a lot of growth over a short period of time and in the middle of a pandemic, right?
Like, you know, scaling, scaling an organization that size in a new industry in the middle of a talent. Shortage you know, in a pandemic was certainly no small feat for the team. And they did an amazing job. And I, and, but then I joined about a year ago to really come in and help [00:05:00] take the organization to sort of, its next stage of development, right?
And really kind of moving from, okay, now we've got the people that we need and how do we create. The environment, how do we create the experience? How do we support their development? How do we, you know, attract and retain and really create a top employer organization? Like the, basically the pinnacle of our industry is what we wanna be, right?
Like we want to be the cannabis company that you wanna work for. Is, is what we're, is what kind of my mandate was coming in. And it's been definitely an exciting one and one that has had lots of challenges along the way, but all, all the good kind of challenges.
GMT20230816-144424_LIsa Recording_separate1: Okay, so we have so many things to dig into. So before we get started, It on in terms of how you started once you got there. You know, I do have a question just around the fact that you were an engineer and you were a chemical engineer.
GMT20230816-144424_Katrina Recording_separate2: I am. Yes. Yes.
GMT20230816-144424_LIsa Recording_separate1: Yeah. So, so that's so interesting, right? Because we think of I, I was previously married to an engineer.
I you know, [00:06:00] Oh, he is a great guy, actually. Civil engineer. And so we're still civil, which is good. But anyways you know, the engineering skillset is often very, you know, very technical very logical very good at sort of, you know, black and white and quality focused and all these things.
That's sort of the, the. traditional view of it. And here HR is a whole lot of shades of gray and ambiguity and broad thinking versus specialization, especially in the senior role, like where you sit. So, so tell me about what that journey was like. Like how do you use your, your wonderful engineer brain in hr?
I'm sure you bring all kinds of strengths and different ways of seeing.
GMT20230816-144424_Katrina Recording_separate2: So, Me a good fit for the role that I moved into, and also what was my biggest challenge in that transition, right. You know, chemical engineering is, you could also call it process engineering, right? It's, it really is all about processes and making processes better. And so, you know, I, I found that the skills that [00:07:00] I had as an engineer were often about how do you see a process?
How do you envision it, how do you, how do you make it better? How do you think about what is the desired outcome of that, of that process? And, The other skills that I brought when I was an engineer was really around bringing people together to think through that, right? And to think about you know, how do we, how do we make things better?
What do, what do we wanna get outta something? What's, what's the end result that we want? So there was a lot of facilitation. It was a lot of sort of understanding and sort of creative thinking and that, you know, that was helpful. And, and I think what. Eased my transition into hr, because you're right, you can, you can see it as very black and white and but it is really HR is in many ways about processes and, and that's, that's kind of the work that I did, but definitely.
You know, I was very used to this sort of like, the process I was used to dealing with were very black and white if then do this right, if then do this. and then I got into this wonderful world that I so much wanted to be part of and everything was ambiguous and it was shades of gray and it was, there was never.
There was never especially since I was in [00:08:00] organization development, right. I was dealing with change management and, and, and it was very much like every problem was a completely new problem that you had sort of principles around, but you had to really think through, okay, what am I, how do I solve this?
Right. You know, again, engineers are problem solvers by nature, so that was. That was great. But you know, there was just so much gray and ambiguity that we really had to sort through. So the first you know, I, I, I always often say the first six months were, for me, the most difficult, where I spent a lot of time thinking like, what have I done?
Right. What have I done was definitely a phrase that came through my mind. But with the right, I, I found the right mentors and I found, you know, the right people to help guide me and to, to teach me kind of their ways and the right development. and then just, Actually fell in love with those types of really complex challenges and problems that we find in this space that were just so much now more interesting to me than anything I had ever faced before.
[00:09:00] Right? Like that was maybe science driven. It was the, the people side was just much more interesting, I think for me, for sure. And then I never looked back at that point.
GMT20230816-144424_LIsa Recording_separate1: right. Well, I I, I'm so fascinated by, by this, and I'm just picturing your brain right on an m r i, 'cause you've got, you know, the left and right. So, so balanced. And, and it is interesting your experience of, you know, that first six months being sort of the most kind of, you know, squishy, kind of like tougher used to this new world.
As much as you were intrigued by it. 'cause it reminds me of a time, and I haven't thought about this in years, but, you know, I, I was originally a teacher and then came out and went straight into, well I was running a payment department of all things, but and then eventually was leading learning and development and so and so really, you know, right to my university degrees.
And so it was always about creative brain, right. And, and language. And so, and I was not a science brain at all. And math, yes. Science, no. And so I had this opportunity where I was asked to project manage, and it was a huge tech project with like, we [00:10:00] were creating online performance, learning a support.
Okay? So it was all connected. And I remember that being a frustrating experience for me too, because it was the opposite of what you experienced, right? Because now I was dealing with a lot of IT professionals and, and, and different players and operations and so on, that, that. That saw things differently than I did.
Right? Not, not in the wrong way by any means, but I remember needing to learn that not everybody saw it the way I did with all of that gray and ambiguity. I was very comfortable with it. They weren't, and I was less comfortable with having to sort of lock down and get very crisp around certain options and decisions.
GMT20230816-144424_Katrina Recording_separate2: Yes, those, those can definitely be, there can definitely be some clashing that happens when you bring kind of those two personality types together in an organization and, and in work. Right. And helping, helping our tech. I actually love working with tech teams because, you know, I'm, I'm, I, I kind of grew up with them.
You can so to, [00:11:00] so to speak. Right? And it's wonderful to. Help kind of push them outside their comfort zone, right. And help them think a little bit differently. And they can be very appreciative at the end, right? But it, I think it takes, it takes somebody to help kind of edge them in that direction and start to think and consider the whole picture, right?
The whole picture of their people and, and the, you know, kind of what's the what's the impact on the, the individual and, and all of those types of things.
GMT20230816-144424_LIsa Recording_separate1: Yeah, I agree. I supported a large IT group for, for several years as an HR business partner. And, and you know, it was, it was, it was a great learning pro process for me as well. But also just to be that person to sort of nudge them along in certain, you know, to, to think a little bit a little bit differently.
But it goes both ways. Right. So, so fascinating. Yeah. Well, okay, so thank you for sharing. That was sort of like a little, a little side road we just went along. wanna come back to when you started at Organogram. 'cause something you had, you had mentioned to me when we were first chatting was, you know, you love a blank sheet of paper.
And, and so you're like, okay, so I'm here for the next [00:12:00] phase of, of where we can go with things after this, all this rapid growth. And you, you were looking at this blank page and started to, to figure out your roadmap. What did that process look like for you?
GMT20230816-144424_Katrina Recording_separate2: Yeah, absolutely. I, I mean, I, I, to me, it really was a dream of an opportunity, right? Because you had an organization that had enough scale to, to put in place, you know, some, you know, initiatives and programs that were significant but was new enough that it didn't have years and years and years of established ways of doing things, right?
You were so it was really this opportunity to kind of think like, if you had right from the beginning, you. Blank sheet. What is my vision? Like where do I want the culture of this organization? You know, where do I think it needs to get to? What do I think needs to look like? Like how do we want, what kind of people do we want?
What kind of talent do we want? What do we want the experience? Do people have we, we were able to start there and then kind of work our way back to say, okay, then what's everything that we need to have? Place to get us there. [00:13:00] Right. And and that's really what it, it, it really kind of looked like, right? It was talking to our leadership.
It was, it was talking to the team that had been here for, for so long to say, okay, like, let's, and taking them out of that day-to-day, right? Taking them outta that day-to-day, putting them around a table and saying, okay, let's start to talk. Right? What is it we do well? What is it that, you know, where do you.
See, where do you see the gaps? Let's, let's, let's talk about where our vision is. And it was, it was some dedicated time to really kind of think through that based on all the conversations we had had with the leaders, what I understood, you know, kind of my mandate to be, and, and our ve and our vast experiences.
'cause another thing about being in a young industry like this is that, you know, you sometimes if you work in an industry like maybe banking, People have spent their whole career, maybe they've been in different banks, but they've spent their, often spent their whole career. In banking, you can hire people that have had a previous career.
In banking, it is not easy to hire people who were previously in, in cannabis because of course the industry is only really, you know, five, five years old, plus some, some medical before then. So [00:14:00] everybody brings broad experience in terms of what they've seen elsewhere. And so we started to craft, okay, based on everything we've learned, based on what we know about organogram, how do we pick and choose kind of what makes sense for us here?
So we, you know, we did that work. We crafted our, we crafted that vision. We talked about kind of what, what. What were our sort of areas of gaps and things that we needed to focus on, and then we started to prioritize, right? And there are things that need to happen before other things naturally, right? You have to, you have to walk before you run and you have to crawl before you even walk.
and so we started to think about like, what, what is actually most important? And of course, one of the first things we said is, you know, we really need to understand the organization. We've heard from our leaders, but we really need to better understand from our team members. So one of the first things we put in our roadmap was you know, a sort of a more fulsome engagement survey than we had ever done before, so that we should, we could get some insights.
And then there were other things that were creating, you know, immediate challenge. Like we had no sort of salary performance [00:15:00] management process, right? And, and, We'd grown our salary organization side of the organization so much over the last few years. We really now needed this. So it was, it, it the, some of the more critical things, because you can't, you can't really put in place development until you know, what those development needs are until you have people talking about their development.
So it became obvious kind of what are some of the orders of things that we needed to do. and then, you know, we, we went forward with it. Right. And we and you know, I, I will say that, you know, Coming back to kind of what's different about this industry. I've been in a lot of sort of established, mature organizations is our buy-in wasn't, this is what we need to do because the organization was so hungry for it.
Our, our challenges actually came later. I can talk about that later. But we were really, it was really go, go forth and do Right. Which was an amazing, amazing opportunity. Right. Go forth and do so. So yeah, so we started down that path and we. along the way we, we did some things that I think are very important.
We, we spent time on communication, right? We spent time communicating this roadmap because now we had it and, and I should [00:16:00] say it was three years, right? And that was, for me, important because there was, I knew that out there people had three years worth of work that they wanted us to be working on, and I needed to show them that what they thought we needed to do was in the plan, right?
GMT20230816-144424_LIsa Recording_separate1: Right, and here's the sequencing of
GMT20230816-144424_Katrina Recording_separate2: the sequence, right? Because otherwise we were gonna have a huge list of things to do in year one and not gonna be able to get to it, right? So it was about showing, going around and communicating, okay, we heard you, here's everything that we heard you say. Here's everything that our expertise tells us, is kind of what needs to be done.
Here's the order that we're gonna do it in. And then people were like, They could take a deep breath, right? And they could say, well, but what about this? And we could say, yes, this is, you know, for the most part we were able to say, yes, this is, you don't see it in this year, but you, you'll see it next year.
Right? And here's why we have to do this, these things first. And, and sometimes they maybe said something and we're like, oh, okay. We didn't actually realize that was critical, so now we actually have to [00:17:00] reorganize, right? Because we can't just add more.
GMT20230816-144424_LIsa Recording_separate1: yeah, so it sounds really, so I, I love this. So listeners, I hope your ears perked up around this piece on spending time communicating the roadmap. I don't think you can spend enough time on that, and it's an ongoing process. It's not one and done because. otherwise the, the, the list of to-dos keep coming in and people don't understand why it doesn't fit or you know, where the constraints are.
So there is a real just like this is the same for any department, but particularly in HR and talent. You've, you, you're so broad. You touch all areas of the organization. So there's an education piece that needs to happen ongoing to help people see what's on your plate. This is why so many of the folks that I, I work with different leaders get.
Frustrated because they feel like nobody understands us.
GMT20230816-144424_Katrina Recording_separate2: Right.
GMT20230816-144424_LIsa Recording_separate1: And so that's where you need to start helping them understand you in a way that's through the lens of your customers. Like in my last corporate role, it makes me think [00:18:00] of. Like when you were talking about how you'd approach this, I walked around, I was the, the vp of talent and had an annual project planner.
So basically had two columns. Listeners, if you are interested, just send me an email and I'll share it with you. But it went month by month. It was legal size. I think there were about two, three sheets and then there were two columns and one was. Like planned events, like what's actually going out this month, what's happening?
And you know, 13,000 employees and a huge team and you know, so there was a lot happening. Just so this was just to keep my eye on the ball. I had my directors fill this in and then the other column was pipeline because. If, you know, I'd be speaking with my peers, other VPs and so on, they'd be saying, well, I, I need you to do this now.
And I'm like, okay. So if we, if we deliver X now and we move that up from the pipeline, it knocks something else out and you can see that it doesn't just knock it out maybe to the next month. There's an effect where we might have to skip [00:19:00] because, oh, we've got the leadership conference that month, or, you know what I mean?
So they could see very visually, and it was very high level, but it was enough that it went so far as far as people understanding the volume and the scope and the scale. Anyway, just thought I'd add that because I, I just really admire that, that you, you knew to do that and you spent that time.
GMT20230816-144424_Katrina Recording_separate2: It, it was so critical and we, we continue to do it right because you, you know, I mean, with communication, it, it has to be ongoing, right? It can't be one and done. And it wasn't just to, you know, my peers in the organization, it was to the leaders. Like we, you know, I started monthly. I. Leadership communication meetings, right?
Where all the leaders come together and we talk about our plan, and we talk about what we're working on, and we talk about what's coming next, right? So they can really see it, doesn't it? It wasn't just, here's our plan, and then it went into a, like, we went silent, right? And now they don't know what. Is this coming?
Is what's happening, right. Have you forgotten about this? You know, so it was, it was constant kind of communication on where are we going? And I felt, you know, I, [00:20:00] I think when I came in, people were feeling because it, the organization had gone to a certain size. They were really feeling almost in some ways, a desperation for some of the things that we were bringing forward.
And now their, you know, their shoulders could go, come down and they could feel like, okay, it's, it's happening. They don't have to worry about it. Like, you know what I mean? Because we've got it and we're, we're bringing it forward. And that was just a little bit of something off their shoulders that we were able to kind of, bring to them you know, so we, it was, that was a, an important piece.
And like I said, all the way through the organization, right down to our, you know, I speak quarterly at our all company town halls about prog things we're focused on and the progress that we're making. And I. Not just because people are interested and wanna know that we're making progress, but I also think it shows that the organization really cares about the talent.
Right. And really cares about their experience. Because this isn't for us. We're not doing these like performance, you know, we're not talking about performance, we're not talking about engagement stories. Like it's not for us. It's for them, right? The development. [00:21:00] Plans that we're putting in place, like, you know, we just recently hired a manager of learning and development because when we completed our engagement survey, we got.
Input back that really said, okay, we actually probably have to accelerate our plans around leadership development. That's something that, you know, maybe we had thought we could push off to next year, but we needed to reprioritize, so let's, let's do that. And so we went and we found an amazing manager of learning and development to come in and help craft that sort of, that leadership development framework.
And, you know, so. When we can then go to the organization and say, Hey, like, look what we've, we've got this here and this is for you. Right? This is really because, you know, you've spoken and you've said you, you are hungry for development. You wanna know that you can grow your career here. You love the company, you love the people, but you wanna know you can, you have a career here and that you're gonna be continuously developed.
And, and so now, here we go. And I think that's, that's important, right? People wanna know that.
GMT20230816-144424_LIsa Recording_separate1: Well, yeah, they don't. Want their feedback to go into an, you know, an [00:22:00] empty box that nobody ever opens. I remember years ago working in an organization, there was a suggestion box. This is like early two thousands, and, and I, and people used to go, why do you think they're gonna open it? It's getting kind of full.
And people would put stupid stuff in because it just never, anyway. 'cause it had, it was an early initiative that was fine and then it fell off. So, you know, people wanna know, someone's looking at it and actually taking it seriously.
GMT20230816-144424_Katrina Recording_separate2: Yeah. And sometimes in the organization you can almost see that suggestion box as like, oh, that's just more work I have to do. Right? That's just more work. Like if I go look in the suggestion box, it's just gonna tell me about things that people want me to do, and that's. And that's more work. Right? And, and I, and you know that it, that's not, that's not the intent.
The intent is to help you prioritize, right? The intent is to make sure that what you're working on actually has the greatest impact, right? An engagement survey or, you know, any sort of listening, we do lots of other types of listening sort of activities in this, in the organization, but any of them are not intended to create, like more work.
It's intended to help make sure that we're focused on work of the highest [00:23:00] value and that we can reprioritize where necessary.
GMT20230816-144424_LIsa Recording_separate1: Well, yeah, and you and I were talking earlier about, about budgets. And so, so we might, might come back to that, but I did, I did, you know, kind of. Dig into this, this piece where, you know, you started with this roadmap, very strategic involving many stakeholders, really doing a lot of communication clearly, or change management coming in, background coming into play here.
And then, you know, something else you had shared that, that, that is such a common challenge for, for leaders in HR and talent is how do you continue to to create. Enough space to work on strategy. So I'm just wondering, you know, when you talk about that being the biggest challenge, how does it show up for you and your team?
Like what kind of gets way, what do you do about it?
GMT20230816-144424_Katrina Recording_separate2: Yeah. And, and you know, one of the challenges we have again, that we're, we're creating, we're creating programs or policies or processes where none existed before. So it's not that, it's not that the team was [00:24:00] used to doing X and they had time in their day to do that, and then we're just evolving it.
We're actually, you know, I know we're adding in many ways more work, right? And so, In order to be able to facilitate that, because we don't have an unlimited, you know, infinite budget that doesn't exist. It really has to be how do you, how do you use your resources you know, smarter, right?
And it's about, for us, it's really about how do we create those efficiencies. So as much as we're focused on these strategic, more strategic sort of, Programs like implementing performance management, engagement learning leadership development. We are also focused on creating efficiencies, right?
Like where can we, where can we automate, where can we take steps out of processes? Where can we, you know, streamline? So we've got both going on at the same, at the same time. 'cause it's really very. It's really very iterative, right? You need the, you need to create efficiency so you have time to work on the strategic pieces.
And then you know, you need those strategic pieces. You, you know, will also hopefully create[00:25:00] you know, more efficiencies within your organization as, as well, right? Like to today, we're still doing our performance reviews on in much more of a paper-based approach, like online, but you know what I mean?
It's not, it's not all automated, right? We're doing a lot of, there's a lot of Excel and word and PowerPoint going on in our, our
GMT20230816-144424_LIsa Recording_separate1: okay. It's early day. Yeah.
GMT20230816-144424_Katrina Recording_separate2: it's early days. But then, you know, at the same time that we're creating these processes, we're also looking for what are the tools that can help us be efficient so that we're actually not going to be doing these things long term in that sort of a way.
And that creates more and more opportunity for the team to get involved in more strategic work. And that's really what excites me. Right. Like when you, when you talk to the team about why we're doing this, like I don't think they want to be filling out forms, right. And entering data, they got into the space of HR because they want to really have an impact on, on people's day-to-day lives and experiences.
They want the room to coach leaders. They want the room to, you know, think about how do they make that [00:26:00] experience better. And so, you know, they really buy into the idea of like, what are the ways that we can make this more efficient? And that, that, that for my team is what's creating the space for us going forward.
For sure.
GMT20230816-144424_LIsa Recording_separate1: Such, such an important piece of our conversation here, so, so listen. I. so something Katrina that you talked about, I'm really hoping listeners picked up on it, is this idea that, all this new stuff coming at your team, right? New and evolving processes and so on. So there's the day-to-day keeping the lights on stuff, and at the same time looking always, ears and eyes open to figure out what are the efficiencies that we could implement, efficiencies that will create capacity to help us be more strategic and long-term thinkers.
That the output from that strategic thinking will create additional efficiencies. So what's really happening is I had this sort of visual, you know, picture in my mind of, you know, this, this capacity. You know, collective capacity growing, which, and, and higher level thinking, if you think about Bloom's taxonomy of [00:27:00] learning, right?
Like we're, we're moving people up in terms of the type of work they're doing, which is important given, given that the robots are coming, right? Like CHATT is gonna be able to take on the form filling, but there will never be a replacement for what happens in. Face-to-face coaching, for instance, with with leaders, right?
They, they will not be able to replace that, that human empathy and so on. So, I really think that you painted an interesting picture. So, but that said, there's a very clear understanding that you've, you've helped your team have, but it's still a challenge to get to it, to get enough time.
So I'm just wondering if you have any sort of tips or, or ideas or things you've tried or planning to try to build in more of that time. 'cause it really is the number one challenge for all leaders that I talk to, right.
GMT20230816-144424_Katrina Recording_separate2: Yeah, and I, you know, I think, you know, there's a little bit of what what gets measured, gets managed. So definitely putting in place I think systems and, you know, scorecards [00:28:00] that are not just about, you know, sort of the day-to-day that we're doing, but also talk about these strategic initiatives. I, I think it's making sure that You're having good conversations when you're setting goals right around who's gonna have to lead on this and what's their role and what is their capacity going to be and what needs to come off their plate.
Right. Constantly having conversations with my team about if you, if you can't get to this, I need to know, because that way I can help, I can help you prioritize your work, right. But it, it's really all about, I think, making sure you've got the right. Visibility to the work, the right sort of ownership of the work, and then ongoing communication and be, and you know, I mean, we're natural.
We are naturally gonna go back to kind of, we, you know, what's the, the fire today? Right? What's the fire that's happening today? That's, that is, that's something that people, you know, because that's the. That's in their face today. Right? So, you know, so if they have to be equally compelled to work on the, the, the [00:29:00] strategic work and, and some of that is about making sure that their, their goals are tied to it.
And some of it is making sure that I'm having ongoing conversations to say, Hey, what's getting in your way so that I can help you, you know, say, Hey, that fire actually isn't all that important, right? That fire is not as important. Like, let's. We, let's, let me help steer you back into this space, because that's what that's where we're really being measured.
Our, our success is really being measured on, on the work we do over here.
Marker
GMT20230816-144424_LIsa Recording_separate1: Yeah. Well it makes me think of, you know, when I. When I teach time management and so on, and the whole important urgent, you know, quadrants, the two by two and, and, and it's so easy when something comes in, you know, like an urgent looking email or request. And it's, and for many people, because they have that sense of urgency, they respond to it and not just respond to the email, but respond internally to this, to this.
Seemingly urgent request and may action it and other things drop that, you know, had they been reflective or stepped back, we would've realized that is not the fire I need to be fighting at this moment. This is somebody else's priority, not mine. So it's this idea of, I think a really [00:30:00] great question to ask.
Ongoing for each of us, but, and with our teams is, you know, what do we, what do we wanna say yes to, and what do we wanna say no to? And another one is, what are we tolerating that we're no longer willing to tolerate what needs to go?
GMT20230816-144424_Katrina Recording_separate2: Yes, exactly. And, and what we found is that we are often doing the work of leaders, right? Is a great example of where our days are filled up, right? And so that is, that's a piece of like, you know, efficiency isn't always like creating space in our team isn't just about automated forms or systems or employee self-serve, or manager self-serve.
It's also about really strong leaders. Who can do the work of leaders, because otherwise we, that's often the urgent work we get pulled into is often doing the work of leaders. Well, you know, can you have this conversation with the team member? Well, no, let me coach you and so you, you will have the confidence to do that.
Right. Let me make sure that, you know, I'm, I'm doing the. What I need to be doing to give you the skills that you need to, to support that you know, it, that's, that's another space that, you know, we know [00:31:00] will help us back to that. How does the strategic work actually create space in the long term?
Building leaders is, is is part of it. Absolutely.
GMT20230816-144424_LIsa Recording_separate1: keeping the monkeys where they belong on the right backs so that leaders don't feel like, oh, it's just easier to defer or abdicate responsibility to.
GMT20230816-144424_Katrina Recording_separate2: And
GMT20230816-144424_LIsa Recording_separate1: They don't know they're doing, a lot of times they don't realize. Right. So they're, it's, it's that that ongoing communication, change management, and I'm supporting you differently through coaching, through facilitation.
Yeah.
GMT20230816-144424_Katrina Recording_separate2: Yeah. And another piece that I've often found is important with coaching my team is that, you know, a, a request will come in and that request from somebody will say, can you do this? And they will jump to it immediately. And I'm like, nowhere did that request actually say, I need you to do this today, or is this necessary today?
Right. And so, you know, helping, thinking back, thinking about. How do you communicate back? Yeah, I can do this, but this is my timeline, right? Like, this is when I can get to it. How does that work for you? And I, I, I'm always amazed when I coach people how that actually is a light bulb that goes off, that says, oh yeah, like, [00:32:00] I actually have control over.
When I do work, like I don't have to jump to it right away, because if I'm always jumping, I'm never gonna, I'm never gonna finish the thing I was working on over here, right? So, how do I, how do I understand the urgent, the true urgency of that request and, you know, keep myself focused where I need to be in this moment.
GMT20230816-144424_LIsa Recording_separate1: Yeah. Well, hey, recovered. Workaholic, you know, would work a million hours just to cover all of the seemingly urgent stuff, you know, and, and led to burnout several times. And, and so I, I hear you. I think that is really, really important for people to learn early on. I mean, that's, I'm, I'm glad you're really reinforcing that with your team.
'cause you know, the earlier we learned that the better for our, our health and our performance and, and, and dissatisfaction. Okay. Well we're nearing the end of our time, sadly. It just, the time always flies. But something that I also wanted to, to touch on, I mentioned it earlier, you and I had talked about like, wouldn't it be nice if we had unlimited budgets?
In HR and talent. [00:33:00] And Sally, I've never seen that. I, I, I work with clients who have all kinds of budgets, you know, deep, deep pockets, and very shallow or not a whole lot to speak of. So, so what are you, you know, we, we also talked about sometimes, you know, the thing is having constraints around what you can spend is actually a good thing. In that it helps you get crystal clear, hopefully on what's the biggest bang for your limited bucks? What are your thoughts about that?
GMT20230816-144424_Katrina Recording_separate2: Well, you know, I think that's really what spurs innovation and creativity, right? I, I don't think innovation was ever, you know, you know, sort of driven out of an ability to maintain status quo or an ability to, or where you didn't have constraints. It's constraints that really, you know, sort of stimulate that creative thinking.
And, and I think that what I. I find is that, you know, it can be really easy to come up with a million things that you can do. And if you have unlimited budget, you could work on all of them and you might enjoy working on them, but they, [00:34:00] they wouldn't necessarily all be the things that are most important and are going to bring value to the organization.
And so what I find that a cons like budget constraints and resource constraints bring to my team is laser focus on what is going to. Bring the biggest impact to the organization, right? You know, and that comes back to our roadmap and how we prioritize our roadmap. So we can't do everything at once.
So what is going to bring the greatest impact? What is going to the value that's going to be, yeah, maybe it might be fun to work on, you know, X, Y, or Z over here, but this is what's actually gonna bring the value. And then how do we, how do we do it in the most? You know, sort of efficient way possible. And that really stimulates great.
Like, I love those conversations with my team as they start to think about, well, you know what, maybe we could do this right? Maybe we could do it that way. You know, let me go and talk to, you know, somebody that I know. it's been a really you know, I think a really powerful way for us to kind of bond as a team as well, and, and, The best part about it is that then when we, you know, we go through all of this work and effort to kind of [00:35:00] bring something together for the organization, like our, our recent sort of leadership fundamentals training that we did, and what we get back from the organization is, Thank you.
Right? Like, this was so needed. You know, there's, you know, it, the buy-in is so easy because we're only bringing forward the initiatives that they absolutely, you know, see value in. And so that makes it really you know, I did my HR career did start in change management, but in many ways it's been so easy here because we're only focused on, you know, what's gonna, what's kind of most needed and brings most value, and that, that makes it easy to kind of get that buy-in.
GMT20230816-144424_LIsa Recording_separate1: Yes. Well, the listening that you've done through surveys and the, and the conversations and so on out to get it right, you know, in terms of where you need to start, because that, this, that's always the big question, but this, this idea of constraints as, as a gift for, you know, that lead to creativity and innovation.
I think it's, you know, when you and I were talking earlier, I was talking about, you know, it's like if you have a small, you move to a small house, now you've gotta get more creative about. What you bring with you and how you [00:36:00] organize it in your storage systems. We, we were touring I was just back, just back from vacation.
We were, we toured with our friends an RV dealership because we're actually thinking down the road we might get an rv. And it's amazing to see just the innovation in the layouts and, and some of them aren't as good as others. And you can sort of see like, but the ones that. Wow, they've really thought about how to use every inch and make it as, as spacious as possible.
It's, it's really, IM impressive. Like it's, it's actually super satisfying versus being something that's bad. Like, you know what I mean? Like with the limited budget, I, I mean, everybody wants a little more money to spend, but I think you're more just screet, I think you're more clear when you have those limited dollars, you've gotta make them stretch more efficiently.
GMT20230816-144424_Katrina Recording_separate2: And, and, and you spend time making sure that you're getting real value for your money. Right? And, and because there's a number of different opportunities out there that you [00:37:00] could, you know, people you could work with or tools you could use. so it really helps you say, okay, yeah, but 1:00 AM I actually.
One, what, what am I actually getting for the money that I'm, I'm spending and how is that actually gonna benefit the, the organization? Because that's ultimately what we're here to do, right? Is to create you know, an organization where people thrive to benefit the organ, to benefit the organization.
It's very, you know, kind of reciprocal, right? In that, in that space and, and that way. And so I think it's been yeah, it, it, it, it makes it that much more interesting. A challenge, I would say is, and I, I, I think my team would. See it that way too, right? Like when I talk to my team about, you know, working here and, or when I'm hiring new people, I'm always talking about like, do you wanna have impact?
Right? Do you want to really drive value in the work that you do and see it and feel it every day? Then this is, this is the place for you. Right. And I think that they experience, or that's my hope, is that they, they are experiencing that.
GMT20230816-144424_LIsa Recording_separate1: Yeah. Beautiful. Beautiful. Well, you know, I'd love to would've loved to dig into a little more about just the, the talent attraction piece [00:38:00] for your, for your industry, but we are, we are outta time, so maybe I'll need to have you come back and discuss that. Thank you so much. This has been just such a, a pleasure to get your insights and kind of from, you know, Right from the start, you know, a year ago and how you very strategically planned your journey and, and you've got that three year view.
And I know you talked about holding the top employer competition as your three year beacon and
GMT20230816-144424_Katrina Recording_separate2: Yes.
GMT20230816-144424_LIsa Recording_separate1: It sounds like you're well on your way working towards where you wanna be in another two years.
GMT20230816-144424_Katrina Recording_separate2: yeah, yeah. Well, thanks Lisa. It was I can't believe the time just flew by. It's been great to come here and talk about kind of what we've accomplished so far. And yeah, I look forward to sharing. Hopefully in three years when we achieve that we achieve that vision.
GMT20230816-144424_LIsa Recording_separate1: Oh, I would love to, love to have you back to talk about that. Thank you very much, Katrina. I know this will be a really useful conversation for people to, to listen to. Thank
GMT20230816-144424_Katrina Recording_separate2: Great. Thanks Lisa. [00:39:00]
