LM Ep 96
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Have you ever felt irritated with your own HR colleagues, the ones that are experts interrelated, but different domain from your own? For instance, HR Business partners and centers of excellence groups can often experience tension when working with each other. In today's episode, my guest and I discuss ways to manage that [00:02:00] tension along with several other interesting topics.
My guest is Vanessa Hinkle. Vanessa is currently VP of People and Culture at Evolved MD and has worked for major brands like an American Express and Banner Health. In this episode of Talent Management Truths, you'll discover insight into how to overcome the tension that often exists between HR business partners and centers of excellence, the performance benefits, and improved outputs of having work experience in A C O E, as an H R B P and in the business.
And finally, a post covid talent acquisition model that leverages being physically in the marketplace. There's a lot of goodness in this episode and we cover a lot of ground. Enjoy, and thanks for listening.
Hello and welcome back to Talent Management Truth. I'm your host, Lisa Mitchell, and today I'm joined by Vanessa Henkel. Vanessa is the Vice President of People and Culture at Evolved md. Welcome to the show, Vanessa. Thank [00:03:00] you so much, Lisa. I'm thrilled to be here. Likewise. Well, so let's dive right in.
So, you know, could you tell us a little bit about your career journey and who you are essentially? Absolutely. So I joined Evolved MD about nine months ago, again as their vice president of people and culture and just so proud and excited to be with this organization after a career that's really spanned, you know, myriad different industries and different size organizations.
So I spent Almost 10 years with American Express as a global HR business partner. Predominantly supporting both the technologies organization and then also their global business services, which included real estate and finance operations and procurement in a variety of different spaces. So that role provided.
So much in terms of that global understanding and certainly partnering and, and receiving the mentorship of just a, you know, just an extraordinary organization and, and HR leaders. And then also [00:04:00] then I spent about four years with the Banner Health System here in Arizona, which is actually. The largest employer in Arizona and I oversaw a h r for two of the larger hospitals right through most of the pandemic.
So that was lucky. That was an experience unlike many others. So incredibly grateful for that space and, and certainly the extraordinary work that our healthcare workers do, but really taught me a lot about change management and, and the true difficulties in a, in a situation like that where, Team members are looking to you for facts and guidance, and nobody had facts and guidance was changing by the day.
So how you continue to keep credibility with team members when you don't have all the answers and, and can't say, here's the policy, this is what we do, you know, because it'll be different in a week. So actually I'd like to just pause there for a second because I think that's so fascinating. what a trial by fire kind of experience with change management.
How did you, you know, what did you do to maintain [00:05:00] that credibility given that it was, we were all had whip whiplash from, you know, okay. Wait, wait, wait. What? What's the, what's the advice now? Absolutely. And, and it was incredibly difficult, right? So in, in all candor, because you didn't know. And so I think first and foremost sort of back to some of the HR lessons that we all learned, that being vulnerable and being transparent you know, we, I was very fortunate of an, you know, to work with an extraordinary leadership team within Banner.
And certainly the big focus was ensuring the top of the house, both at the, the corporate level across the entire entity. As well as within the individual hospitals, we're highly visible, highly available. You know, we, we literally spent a fair amount of time redeploying workers who were not needed as much at that time into, you know, emptying waste baskets and rounding and, you know, providing snacks and just really connecting with individuals and, and hearing them.
Caring for them, providing respite [00:06:00] where we could but my goodness, more than anything else, I think just that vulnerability and transparency was, was really where, where you had to start from. It's interesting 'cause the pandemic was so tough and one of the, the more common lessons I hear though is that it helped us all tap into that vulnerability that that realism a little bit.
Right. We could just, because it was, it was very raw, right. And we were all figuring it out as we went along in, in a really palpable way. Well, and such a, a different experience from so many of my colleagues because most of my colleagues, whether they be in HR or fellow professionals, oh, we're stuck at home.
I was never home. We were, we were in the hospital each and every day because that's where our teams were, that we were the front line or my goodness, at least our clinicians were I felt a very much a supporting role but truly, whether it be here in Arizona, we even had some outbreaks of violence and there was a curfew and.
I'm the one car on the road driving down [00:07:00] the highway, but, you know, carrying my badge in case I get stopped. So it was just, it is something unprecedented and hopefully, hopefully won't experience again. You don't have to go back there. Well, thanks for, for sharing a little bit about that experience. it's sounds like one that's gonna stay with you for a very long time.
Indeed. Now, back to Amex for a second too. 'cause that's, That's amazing experience, amazing organization. Shannon Hamilton, who's been on the show as a representing stakeholder perspective. She heads up sales at Blackberry Radar. She was there for a very long time and always spoke very highly of HR function.
And I did the HR business partner function. We're gonna d dig into this a little bit, relationships that HR business partners have within HR itself. And I do really. I'm very thankful for that time. I only did it for five years. It was in a global role with Franklin Templeton Investments and it taught me a ton though in terms of partnering and working with multiple levels and influence, and I am really, really, really glad that I had that experience, even though it was never [00:08:00] anything that I had sought.
So interesting. Right. So let's let's learn a little bit before we move into. This area of HR business partnering and so on. I'd love for you to share just a bit with the audience around Evolved MD itself. 'cause it has a really interesting model and in this era of increased awareness of the need for mental health First aid and, you know, mental health supports and the workplace, I think it would be kind of neat to hear.
Absolutely. And it's certainly what initially drew me to the organization when I was first approached about the opportunity. my goodness, the world has changed so much and thank goodness, on the one hand, we are so much more aware of the needs for mental health support, wellbeing for all of us.
And you know, certainly what I think back to as a child, you know, family members who now clearly to my mind, We're dealing with mental health challenges, but either it wasn't spoken of or it wasn't identified, or certainly there weren't the support [00:09:00] mechanisms in place. And so even today my goodness, I can't hold a conversation like this without encountering someone who's had a family member who they've needed to advocate for or experience.
Just such incredible difficulties getting them the help that they may need. Certainly some of that is due to the limited amount of providers that are available. Some of that is still, unfortunately due to stigma as well, and so oftentimes individuals who may need assistance struggle with, with calling that out.
You know, we're we're okay saying, goodness, I'm battling a terrible disease and I need chemotherapy. We're not okay saying, wow, now I've, you know, just like my blood pressure, you know, I've, I've got something else going on. It's still perceived differently in so many, in so many venues, and it's wildly unfortunate.
And that's what I love about our model. So what we've done is we actually embed behavioral health therapists. Into primary care provider's offices. So here in the States, usually you start with that primary care provider [00:10:00] and that individual really oversees your care. And that's usually your first go-to if you like.
Oh, the family doctor. Yeah, family doctor. Exactly, exactly. General in Canada. Yeah. Yes, absolutely. So, imagine the difference though. If you are engaging with that family doctor, that primary care provider, and you're, you've been having a rough time. What would happen in many situations, not to oversimplify, but either the doctor's going to be incredibly busy and not even have an opportunity to truly take note.
That might be one situation that would happen. Another might be. Goodness, I can see you're, you're having some difficulties. Gosh, I think if you call the back of your insurance card here in the States, you know, check and find out what insurance, you know, what covers for you. You know, get with a provider.
Seems like it would be good for you to connect with a mental health provider. Well, unfortunately, number one, back to the stigma, back to sometimes even the individuals who are in any type of mental health challenge. Don't have just [00:11:00] even the, the internal resources and capability to navigate that system.
And quite often, at least here in the States, if they're lucky enough to find someone, it could be two, three months before they can actually get on that individual's calendar because there's such a compelling need. Imagine that compared to. Doctor saying to you, my goodness, it sounds like you've had a really rough couple of months.
You know, there's an amazing provider here in my office, Mary Jane, who works in the behavioral health space. I think it'd be fabulous for you to get some time with her before you leave. Work with my office manager and, and get a, get an appointment set in the next couple of weeks. I mean, the ease that that has created, the, the lack of needing to navigate and tell your story to four different strangers before you can get help, just hugely impactful.
And so, just so proud and in awe, certainly of the work that our behavioral health therapists do every day. So they are embedded in those doctor's offices. At this point, we've just entered our fourth state, so [00:12:00] we're very much southwestern us at the moment. So we've kind of got the four corners as it's called down here.
Covered. We're based in Arizona a a pretty good sized presence in Utah, growing in Colorado and just entering New Mexico. So definitely in growth mode. Yeah. That's really, really exciting. Yeah, so it's a really interesting model and it's so funny 'cause it, it didn't occur to me when we first met and had our conversation about the show.
But when I, so my son is 17 right now. Mm-hmm. Patrick, and we had a lot of trouble. I lost several. Okay. So I had a really rough go not getting pregnant, but staying pregnant. And so I had this very awesome gynecologist. Who I worked with and he had a mental health counselor embedded in his practice partly 'cause I, I was high risk on three different fronts.
Yeah, I, I completely forgotten about how. Wonderful. That was because after I lost the third baby, I thought, I remember looking at him going, I guess I'm done. [00:13:00] Three strikes, you're out. And he, and just bawling, right? And he just, I have someone I think, but you know, it would be worthwhile for you to speak to.
And they were there right away. And thank goodness, because it really. It was really impactful for me at that time, going through a difficult, a difficult time. So I appreciate what, what you're doing. At Evolved md. I think it's really, really interesting, really necessary, so, okay. A bit of a personal story.
Sorry, listeners, but Yeah. You know, we all have stories. Right? No, I appreciate you sharing that. And that's exactly you know, the intervention may sound a little bit like a dramatic word, but that ability to intervene before it becomes a huge issue, you know, and being able to identify if that's the right level of service or, my goodness.
Then our behavioral health therapists are pro, are supported by what we call care coordinators. Who can actually help identify additional resources within the community if there's a different level of care or different specialty that's required. So it's, it's a beautiful thing. Yeah. Yeah. Well, that was just a, [00:14:00] a huge pivotal time for me and, and just the resources they connected me to allowed me to, to keep going and push through and eventually have my miracle baby.
So there you go. Oh, that's wonderful. Yeah, exactly. All right, so. So let's kind of shift gears a little bit because I want to look at, you know, this, this idea of, I see this, I see this with many many guests that come on the show. I think it's so interesting when you have that experience working for a really big global organization and with a much smaller one.
And I'm wondering if you could share with us a little bit about, what have you noticed is the same and what's different. Absolutely. You know, it was an incredible gift that I had to work with those large organizations because truly, you know, the resources the, the human capability, obviously many of these organizations are attractors of top, top talent.
So, you know, I spent my first few months just in awe, quite honestly, of many of the individuals that I met. Both of their, [00:15:00] you know, their educational expertise, their, you know, the organizations that they dealt with, and really the, the level of thinking and out of the box thinking more importantly than anything else that they brought to the table.
So, I'd highly advocate, hey, to take that, that tour of duty, if you will, in those al large organizations. creates an entirely different profile, I believe, of how I show up now that I'm working in, in a much, much smaller organization. We're just about 120 employees now, although, my goodness, we were only about 85 when I started nine months ago.
So the growth is there but also the, that number is a. Really tiny one compared to the 50,000 employee populations that I've been a part of historically. So, you know, I think certainly there are some differences for someone like myself who is just a learning nerd, quite honestly, and I geek out on hr, I absolutely love it.
And so, you know, when I see an opportunity, when I see a need, I want to ideate, [00:16:00] socialize, try it. And then, you know, reiterate again, right? So, you have more of an opportunity to, to approach things that way when you're in the, the smaller organizations, because understandably, you know, in those large organizations, any work that you're doing can have.
Impact a myriad stakeholders, right? So for example, in that global HR business partner role, not only is there goodness, there is a, a center of excellence that's already been working in that space and they've got this, you know, this whole strategy to deliver. And, and in fairness, in those large organizations, they have to deliver product that will address the needs of high level, highly educated technologists.
Fast-paced sales and marketing folks, entry-level customer service individuals. And so obviously their remit and their focus has to get a bit more agnostic, if you will, to a particular group. Whereas when you're that HR business partner, you know your team and you know your leaders and you know your delivery, [00:17:00] and you really want to just.
Go, oh, I'm gonna go incubate and make this this cool thing. I think it taught me a lot to find that balance between how do I advocate and really help address the needs of my specific client group while at the same time giving me that appreciation. And in. Side of, there's a, there's a greater good at play here when you're talking very, very large organizations.
So I think that taught me a lot. But I do love the idea, you know, I'm, I'm incredibly fortunate with the leadership team that I work with here. More often than not, it was a, a new experience for me to say, well, I'm thinking about doing this. They're like, you go do it. You know, you, you tell us what you think.
Which is, which is fabulous and been very exciting and certainly allowed. I and my very small team to deliver a lot of great work just in the short time that we've been working together already. and I would imagine too, just from a variety perspective oh, yes. Oh yeah. You get to touch All kidding.
My, my, my HR coordinator is out this week. I'm now learning a whole new [00:18:00] thing about benefits administration. Absolutely. Yes. Oh my God. But it is interesting, right? You do get to dip your toes in a whole bunch of different puddles so to speak, and For sure. Yeah. I think that's interesting. So, so what what struck me here was, you know, you were talking about as an H R B P and, and I relate to this as well, representing, you know, particular you know, it could be a couple of key divisions and their senior leadership team.
And for me it was, it was sales and I had finance and it, and so, you know, you're, you're, you're needing to advocate for your group within your own team. So there, so in some cases too, I have one client where the HR VPs actually report into, The business unit, not hr. Yeah, absolutely. And, and that creates a whole, this whole tension.
Oh yes. That's even more so than when HR Business partners report into the head of hr. So, I don't know this. What, how, what was it like for you with, with you know, you had mentioned to me when we first [00:19:00] met this concept that sometimes COEs, you know, they're baking these beautiful, you know, programs and so on for us to, to serve on a platter, and they're trying to cover, you know, such breadth and depth.
Yes. And then they're saying, okay, here you go. And it can feel like sometimes they don't mean it this way, they're, they're throwing something over the fence. Like hair catching. You're trying to figure out, oh my God, how do I make this ball fit into this game over here? So tell us a little bit about your experience with that and, and what did you learn?
What, what approach works? You know, I, I, I think your, your description is a fair one. And, and again, back to my earlier point of, you know, first off, understanding the perspective of those COEs, understanding that their remit, you know, particularly when I was with Amex, we were going through huge HR transformation and really a lot of it was moving away from that, you know, Working natively unto your client group [00:20:00] and really getting a more holistic, strategic approach.
So there were reduced resources put in the field, if you will, and more put to those COEs because the intent was no, thou shalt not go and reinvent, you know, this and that. We're going to make sure that our HR business partners are truly focused on strategy and the top of the house, and not trying to go into the, the weeds a little bit more and, and deliver, which made sense from a, from a cost and, and scale and structure.
Absolutely made sense. I, I think the biggest thing for me I think I've spent my most of my career being so passionate about the business that I'm supporting, that I, I learn so much about the business, perhaps more than some HR people do. Part of it's, I. Just 'cause I'm that learning nerd. Oh, there's something, I don't know, teach me, teach me.
But I think that comes through and I think we all know, you know, people will find the more, the more you ask people about themselves, the more fascinating and positively they view [00:21:00] you. Right? I mean, that's, that's just kind of a, a, a, a, an understanding. So truly that authentic desire for learning and bias to support the business came through.
You know, so when I am needing to go to my car partners and say, okay, we have, we have this program. And obviously I probably wouldn't say it quite like that, but truly balancing without it being disingenuous saying, I hear you. I know the business, I know what we want to do. At the same time, I have this amazing partner who has to be delivering on this global scale.
Now, how can we take this, stay true to the spirit and the core of it, but do it in a way that is credible for our leaders and credible for our team members. And so that was a lot of it too. And that might be, you know, almost kind of the, the critical thinking piece of it, of understanding the core. One of the things that I need to unequivocally be able to say back to my c o e of checked the box, delivered it, whatever, you know, needed to be filled in and [00:22:00] PeopleSoft or whatever needed to be done right, but at the same time, make sure that it, it, it stays credible with the organization and, and delivers an impact for the organization.
It was, there were certainly times it was challenging. But at the same time, I do think the more credibility that you have with the business to say, I know I hear you at the same time, we need to be good partners. You know, we are part of a very large, very matrix. You know, oftentimes these environments can be quite political, right?
And so, hey, we need to show up as our best selves engage, you know, Assume positive intent and figure out how to get to the win. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. So, so let's just unpack some of that stuff. So I, I appreciated how you talked about, you know, at, at Amex for instance, that that, that it was interesting that there was this move at the time to put more resources against the COEs and to help the Hrps really see the bigger picture, the bigger, broader picture.
Right. it's this idea of in order to, you know, for HR to really be that [00:23:00] strategic, Thought partner for, for an organization they need. And, and I think they're, they're exquisitely well positioned, in terms of their multiple perspectives, that they have that breadth across the organization to uphold that vision.
Right? Like they can actually help with that if they understand that that is part and parcel of the, of, you know, the role. So this idea of helping H R B P C, that, you know, it's the bigger picture that we're looking for you to help with, even within your assigned businesses, right? So it's, it's, it's, it's not either or.
It's, and what does it look like to have, to respect the framework that's in place from the COEs and influence it to be flexible enough so that flexibility in a framework It is so fascinating for someone like you having that HR business partner experience and now you're in a role where you're kind of doing the whole enchilada.
You know, I think that hr, BP experience and, and being on the receiving [00:24:00] end of programs and needing to go out and implement with the businesses and so on, that helped me tremendously. You know? I would agree. Yes. Yeah, like my last corporate role was VP of talent management, so I was truly on the talent side, not the HR ops side and.
But that experience came up time and time again 'cause it's all about communication and change management, all about it. Right, so I, I, I think you mentioned about, you know, recommending that people do a tour of duty in one of these big organizations. For some people, that's not possible. That's not gonna play out.
Yeah. I would also say, if you can though, on top of that, also, if you're more in the talent side, you are tour of duty on the HR side, which was never part of my plan. I was tapped for that by my boss, and I'm so appreciative to her to this day. Didn't think I could do it or wanted to. But also for the HR purists, right, that are doing more of the operations Absolutely.
To, to work in a so c o e because I think that absolutely key to greater harmony [00:25:00] and which is key and better outputs. Absolutely. Well, and I think it, it creates in, in an ideal world, and this was not an opportunity I had, you know, I, I think one of the best models is when you really take a tour of duty in the business.
You know, go work in procurement, go work in sales, go work in strategy. I, again, unfortunately I did not have that opportunity, but I did everything I could. To learn from those individuals. Again, sort of that, that sponge mindset about, okay, well I've never done procurement, boy, by the time I was done supporting that organization, I can't, I wouldn't say I could do the job, but I, I probably could have faked it pretty good and figured it out because I was so connected to understanding the results and, and the challenges.
But I would agree, you know, I think. At, at minimum, to your point, being involved in those different pieces. So going way, way back in my career, there was actually a time I ran a staffing service. I was the branch [00:26:00] manager. I don't even think that's a title anymore. You know, and I was doing the sales.
But also most of my sales success came because I was such an HR nerd, right? So I really connected with HR people, and it was the first learning of bringing your expertise to bear. In that situation, I was solving a problem when they had all these, you know, high challenge, you know, high turnover roles, and what could we do?
And I think that was the beginning of the journey for me of, Hey, here's the expertise I bring. How can I put it to work for you to make your life better? Agreed, and I'm, I'm, I really appreciate you bringing up that other piece. It's not only just like switch in and out of HR partnering and COEs. Show up in the business.
So I had that early on, very early on. Manage the big payment department and you know, and did customer service and manage that. Yeah. So was able to pick some of that up along the way and, and again, I think you, I think it's kind of like, it's this whole idea of standing in. Another person's shoes. It helps you be more effective when you kind of flip over.
Absolutely. [00:27:00] Essentially, too, what we're saying is when it comes to talent development and succession planning, it's due for ourselves, what we do for, for internal clients, right? How can we create some mobility so that people get that breadth and depth of experience over time and, and become more valuable to the organization?
Exactly. Well, and I think not only more valuable to the organization, but in these days of, you know, retention and turnover challenges, you know, that's probably in candor, you know, back to our, you know, what are the differences that you see. You know, so many big organizations now are highly focused on this concept of the talent marketplace.
I don't know if I can really do that with a hundred employees, right? But at the same time, I think we have done a really nice job of really making sure we're having those development discussions, plotting the path continuing to look for how we create additional incremental growth RO roles as we scale.
But that's a big part of it, right? You know, the more that you can create that [00:28:00] career journey internally, So different from, you know, the days of the goal to watch and, and 30 years at one organization, you really need to make sure that you're really creating new jobs, if you will, for your, your current employees if you want to keep them.
absolutely. Absolutely. Oh my goodness, I love this, this whole area, and I just think it's, it's fascinating. Me too. Help people grow and develop and sometimes in place. Right. Exactly. Okay, so let's, let's kind. Cross over into the area of talent acquisition because I know that you got, you know, some, some really clear clear philosophy and some opinions around talent acquisition done well and what's needed, and so was hoping you could, you could share that a bit with us.
Absolutely. You know, it's interesting because having, you know, this not be my first, second, or even third rodeo, and certainly having started out in the talent acquisition space, a thousand years ago it was very much, oh, you post a job [00:29:00] and, and your skills are really that you're searching those keywords and you're good at.
Screening and you're, you know, good at setting them up, you know, the candidate up to, for a successful interview with a hiring leader. And it's so different nowadays. Certainly partially back to everything that, you know, that the pandemic has put us through that also, you know, there's. The, the, the war for talent to me is not about the war for the basic skills.
The war, particularly for an organization like Evolved md, where every employee has such a huge impact, is we want the the best of the best. And so how do you do that when you're a very small organization, you know, just entering our fourth state. How do you get that, that visibility and brand? And, you know, what I've articulated with with our TA team is, you know, our desired end.
Date is we have people going, Hey, do you know anybody at Evolved md? I'm, I'm waiting to get in there. I've been trying to keep an eye out for when they might have an opening. What I'm incredibly proud of is we've [00:30:00] already had, had it happen twice. Oh wow. Right. And, and literally the soundbite came to us unsolicited of, wow, I've been watching.
Wow. I can't wait for you to come to this market. You know? And, and that's really the, the golden egg, if you will, from, from our perspective. And so, so much of that, of course, has to do in partnership with our marketing team. So as we are looking at, at our marketing talent, certainly there is the, the business generation and the visibility that you would normally expect.
But so much of it is the partnership in terms of the social media posts, in terms of the events, in terms of all the different ways that. We can drive visibility about who we are as an organization to attract individuals, even if right now they're not looking for a job, right? So, as you can imagine in the behavioral health space these individuals, the, the largest portion of our employees are at minimum master's level social.
You know, type [00:31:00] profiles. And so this is not that you can go build your own or that people can go, oh, cool. You know, I mean your, your, your, your pool is not exceptionally large. And so one, you know, back to that piece of building that brand and knowing where all the different niche, you know, job fairs or conferences are.
Oftentimes I have my recruiters attending behavioral health conferences that doesn't even have like tables and and recruiting, but they are literally just there and talking to folks and making those connections because how we've structured, our TA team is very focused of you own your market. So I mentioned we're geographically in four states now, so we have individuals on our team that are assigned specific geographies.
And their role is not strictly to post jobs and interview folks. Their job is to own that market. So they are building relationships, they are building their own social media profile. In that space, they are maintaining that roster of, wow. I know I had this amazing conversation with [00:32:00] someone six months ago.
At the time, they weren't interested. Now, you know, sales is telling me we've got a new client, I'm gonna pick up the phone and call them. Some of the stories that my recruiters can tell of just the connections that they've made and the impact that they've had with people coming back six months later is, is just extraordinary.
And it's because it's, it's much more of a relationship management role than it is fill the job role. Interesting. So, so I, I really like that kind of focus on building connections, you know, like for instance, it's not about having a booth at this conference, it's about just sitting with the other, the people Yeah.
That you're needing to attract and, and, and just connect in, in an authentic way. I think there's a, a great learning for, for listeners there is, you know, another pillar to add into the recruitment strategy if it's not already there. The other question I had is, you know, When it comes to your this owning of the.
You know, of your area, of your state. Yeah. So what does it actually look like in terms of how the, the [00:33:00] talent acquisition specialist would, would go about their own marketing efforts and so on? Like, how, how are they kind of empowered to do things? Absolutely. So some of it's, you know, boots on the ground, some of it's research, some of it's networking.
All of those. Things. So certainly r t a team is encouraged to be physically in the market where it makes sense going out. You know, I, I joke and say, you know, shaking hands and kissing babies, but whether it be making those connections with universities, making those connections with local organizations, being in person at, you know, relevant charitable events and, and you know, literally everybody's business code business card is the QR code on the back for our recruitment openings, right?
Because again, it's not necessary. As I joined my mandate to the team is absolutely we need to fill the jobs today, but part of your job is also building the connections that will, that will yield impact for us nine to 12 months from now. Right. So, you know, some of it is that boots on the ground. Some of [00:34:00] it is truly just the research and the connection.
And really, you know, as you're talking to any individual, really understanding, my goodness, what's their journey been, who are some of the people they've encountered? What are some of the great places they've worked? Certainly we're fortunate too. In today's day and age, there's so many technology pieces that can help enable this as well.
So here in the states, I'm not sure if they, they play in, in Canada as well. There's an organization called Hire Z. And they have been instrumental, certainly in helping us find folks, you know, do you do sort of mass outreach? But what I love about my team is they're very hesitant to say no. We don't do things in a, Hey, you know, one size fits all.
We're really creating that candidate experience so that, you know, when somebody responds to one of those mass emails and shares a. You know, something personal or something unique, we're actually reaching out and saying, oh my goodness. You know, help me understand a little more about that. That's an amazing part of your journey.
We'd love to know, you know, you know, learn from that. it's a lot of relationship building. [00:35:00] And I think where we're incredibly fortunate is the, the leadership within Evolved MD is so passionate about making sure that we get the culture right. It's, you know, I've, I've had recruiters join me and go, what, what do you mean I can spend more money?
I've, I've never been allowed to do that before. Right. You know, and, and obviously we're very fiscally responsible, but at the same time to say, this is important and this is not fill the job, this is fill the job in the right way or wait. Yeah. And to do that, you have to really understand what that profile looks like.
And, and I'm just incredibly grateful for the amazing TA team we have and, and what they've brought to the organization. I love that I, you know, I've, I've led talent acquisition in several organizations in my last one, you know, spent, you know, a particular focus. 'cause we had inherited a group and, and, and it was sort of a, I wanted to, to shift the way they looked at their roles, right?
There were, yep. Several people on the team. And so it was, you know, helping 'em understand you're an ambassador for this organization. Bingo. Every single person you speak to. [00:36:00] What's interesting here with this model, you know, is that, that people actually, you know, recruiters going out and being physically in the marketplace, it reminds me very much of sales.
You know, I think about also exactly organization with our sales people that it was a retirement living, seniors living. And so there was a sales consultant for each home. And so they, you know, I did. Develop the sales training there. And so there was a lot of work for people to, to learn. How do you find people and, and understanding that this is a longer term gain.
This isn't precisely authentic relationships, not worrying about, signing on the dotted line right away. Like giving things time to, to kind of build, to nurture it right in these different communities. Precisely. I would agree. Yeah. Beautiful. Well, so we're actually coming near the end of our time, so a flu of course.
And we still had a few things we were gonna talk about, but I think the one I'd like to kind of finish up with is he and I had had shared some, some[00:37:00] similar views around this idea of, of HR sometimes. Feeling like they need to ask for pre permission rather it even sticks in the throat. I know. Yeah.
I hate that. No, but you know, I do see this with some people, with, with clients, with people I talk to where they can be reticent to kind of, Say this is, this is really important. This is what we need to do. Instead, they, they come from a place of, well, what do you want? And, you know, we want to do this, can we do this?
I'm simplifying it, but what have you observed and what, what are your thoughts around this? Yeah. You know, I think it's, It's one of the greatest challenges that, that you often see in the HR profession, and it saddens me because I feel like I, I see both extremes sometimes, right? To your point. So a lot, particularly I think for individuals, maybe they're newer in their career or in smaller organizations, it can be incredibly challenging, right?
If you don't have a top of the house that [00:38:00] really understands the value and the impact that HR can bring. It can be very difficult and we'll talk a little bit about some ideas on, on how to address that. And I think the other extreme is sometimes you, you know, I've, I've literally had people to me say over the years, HR is dangerous because you've got, you've got the ear of, of the senior leaders.
And so all you have to do is just say something and it can really, you know, negatively impact. Someone's career. And so I think we need to be mindful of both, right? We need to always be a little bit Switzerland, quite honestly. You know, you should never be too native with any leader, no matter how, you know, how great they think you are or not great.
They think you are. You, you know, you're not there to please the individual. You are there to bring your thought leadership and expertise to drive the organization forward. And so you are going to have different opinions sometimes, and you are going to have insights. Now a hundred percent. You know, especially even my goodness at this point in my career joining evolved I had [00:39:00] a great amount of regard and of course still do for what's been built before I got here.
So even though I might have been able to come in and say, oh my goodness, this process should be improved and that's not compliant and we need to do this, those certainly could have been thoughts in my head. Really the most important thing first was to listen and learn from the organization, understand and appreciate, and show that appreciation and value for what's been built.
And then, you know, I love the, the quote of Voltaire. You know, judge a man, not by his answers, but by his questions. Then you start asking questions, and if you're asking questions, One that's showing your desire to learn back to some of the earlier things that we talked about, but it's also a way to probe and prompt thinking from your partner as opposed to you trying to, you know, in some black and white way, articulate, oh my goodness, this is wrong and we need to fix it.
Well that's gonna put up walls, right? You know, if you think about the best coaching, what you really wanna do is create that positive feedback loop and that positive [00:40:00] experience. So people want to hear more and want to learn more from you and value your perspective. So certainly coming into a smaller organization, that was my first focus, was that listen and learn.
Ask questions and then over time, certainly the questions may have more of, I know where I'm trying to get to, how do I really partner with these leaders? And along the way, they may still be teaching me. I mean, I can think of an example quite literally about a week ago where I had some, I had some pretty specific ideas of how I thought something should be done as an and as I engaged with that, that leader of that team, Wow.
Okay. Well now you've given me something new to think about. And where she and I got to was, was the ideal outcome from both perspectives. And it certainly valued what was, what the intent was from the team's perspective, but also addressed some of the, the gaps that I had been informed of and had observed in that particular process.
So, yeah. So you can tell me about my job. Well, well I liked, I liked, you know what you said, you know, we need to be a little bit Switzerland. 'cause [00:41:00] I think that neutrality is one of. HR and talent management professionals, core strengths, right? Yes. Like this is part of that broad perspective that you bring and that ability to, to facilitate and help clients and yourself see things from multiple angles, right?
Because otherwise we know we get into trouble when we're sort of too far on one extreme or the other. So, bingo. Case, you know, too far on the asking for permission. And that comes from a lack of confidence. Like, especially if you're in an organization where they might see HR as the, the police are, you know, like exactly something to be feared.
And you also don't wanna be that proverbial bull in the China shop that's just like going ahead and not listening. So I think, I think that that. You know, the balance. It's that it's a sense of neutrality, it's a sense of, it's co-creation, right. You're, you're absolutely. It's like what it sounds like you did when you came into to your current organization, right.
Is well, and I think learning. Absolutely. Yeah. The other thing that occurs to me when we talk about the [00:42:00] asking permission if you really understand the objectives of the organization and even perhaps more importantly, sometimes the objectives and the current journey of the leader you're engaging with.
You have the ability to articulate the things you're trying to do in a way that's adding value for them. So it's not that you're coming and going, may we, because the law says we must. Instead, you're saying, wow, I've observed this. I know where we're trying to get to. Does that serve us in the best way of where we're trying to get to?
Or might there be another approach? It was still a question, it was still not me, you know, dictating something, but it was asking those impactful questions couched in the things that I know are most relevant to that business or to that leader, as you know, as I'm trying to determine the best, the best way forward.
Yes. And we can't figure that out without the people who will be impacted. Yeah. So what, what a beautiful, what a beautiful note to, to land on. I think, you know, we've covered a lot of, a lot of important ground and I really wanna thank you for coming, coming on the show and sharing your experiences with us.
Lisa, I [00:43:00] really enjoyed it. Thank you so, so much. My pleasure.
