LM Ep 98
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Hello. Hello, Lisa here. Since you're listening to this particular podcast, I imagine you're likely a leader in the area of talent, HR, people, culture, [00:01:00] L& D, employee experience, or OD. Are you also a talent leader who is longing for a safe sounding board to bounce ideas off of? Who's thirsty for some fresh new ideas that will actually work?
Who maybe needs to influence multiple stakeholders who don't always know what they want? Maybe you're somebody who wants to get out of their own way and who's ready for expert, ongoing, and confidential mentoring. If you answered yes to one or more of those statements, Then we need to talk in addition to my group programs, I work privately with a select few clients as their talent management thought partner, I will help you over the next 90 days, finally create the space, the intention and the strategy to implement an initiative.
That's critical to your team's longer term impact and legacy. Let's chat and see if there's a fit. Book me online at greenappleconsulting. ca slash contact.
In today's episode, we're flipping things around. I'm sharing an [00:02:00] episode where I was the guest and not the host. Back in May, 2023, I was invited to appear on the, who are you to lead anyway, podcast hosted by the wonderful Cynthia Jameson. And what a great experience. Cynthia is a skilled host who asks great questions and listens very deeply.
Cynthia works with emerging and new leaders and wanted to share with them what happens in organizations behind the scenes when it comes to assessing and developing talent. In her words, she offers this conversation as an insider's view of leadership development and how to get involved with and manage the talent on your team.
Join us to learn and hear about my apparently fascinating journey challenges and bumps along the way. And how I navigated these as my, career progressed, what I wish I'd known before becoming a leader and talent management advice and questions to enable new leaders to proactively explore performance and potential.
Enjoy.
[00:03:00] Hello, hello, welcome back to the, who are you to lead any way podcast for mastering skills to navigate leadership in life episode 18. I am thrilled to introduce my guest today, Lisa Mitchell. Lisa brings over 20 years experience as a corporate leader and executive to the table, and is known for her strategic yet highly practical approach.
She honed her skills in progressively senior HR and organizational development roles in large Canadian and global companies. As a Talent Management Thought Partner and Results Coach, Lisa helps talent management leaders embed talent programs that drive results and elevate organizational culture. Lisa believes that the employee experience drives the customer experience and that a strong employee experience is cultivated by smart, well supported talent leaders who are committed to their own growth and development.
You'll hear about Lisa's leadership journey, experiences and challenges that kept showing up for her. [00:04:00] She also shares advice for new leaders as it relates to getting involved with and managing the talent on your team. Let's get started. I'm so excited for you to hear this conversation. Hi, Lisa, welcome to the podcast.
It is so nice to have you here with me today. Oh, well, thank you so much for the invitation. I'm delighted to be here. I am too. Would you mind just introducing yourself to the audience? Let them know who you are and what you do. Absolutely. So, I'm Lisa Mitchell and I am the founder of Green Apple Consulting which is a a firm that provides talent management thought partnering for talent and HR, OD, L& D leaders.
So my sweet spot is really to be a catalyst for the catalyst, because these are leaders and organizations that everybody's looking to them to, to, to get tools and programs to develop their people and themselves. And sometimes it can feel lonely there. And I know that because I spent about 25 years [00:05:00] and in corporate Canada in senior leadership and executive roles.
Yeah, I agree with you. It can feel lonely there for sure. I wonder with that kind of backdrop of where you are now, would you mind sharing a little bit about your personal leadership journey and what that looked like for you? Sure. Well, my personal leadership journey it started out kind of funny because I'm a former middle school French teacher.
So when I was younger, I tutored kids in French throughout high school. And I'd always wanted to be a teacher because my mom was a teacher. My grandma was a teacher, my great grandma and so on and so forth. So I just thought, Oh, I can do that. That'll be good. So, so I went to school and, and, and, you know, got a French degree and then got my education degree and I taught middle school French and, and I discovered fairly quickly that it wasn't for me and it was heartbreaking, heartbreaking because I was such a driven.
Young woman and I [00:06:00] couldn't believe that I'd invested all of this time in something that now I didn't really want to do. I loved the kids. I was a good teacher. I was solid. I didn't feel that supported and I was very stressed and I was working literally 70 hours a week. And I just felt like I could never rest.
It actually stole my sense of humor. And once that happened, because humor, delight, joy, they're important to me I realized that I had to pause. So I stepped back and I fell into corporate through a temp job as a bilingual CSR through Manpower. Oh my gosh, I totally remember Manpower. Yep, yep, at CIBC Finance.
And I remember God, you know, and it was, I think I got 11 an hour because the, the unilinguals only got 10. But anyways, this is going back quite a while. And I remember though taking it because my, my husband at the time was like, okay, so you don't have any more salary. So maybe you should, you know, get something.
What are you going to do [00:07:00] when you grow up? Cause I took a leave of absence while I figured things out. So anyways, I kind of fell into this and became this customer service representative managing student loan calls and, you know, I had no idea what I was doing. I taught myself word at home. Microsoft worked in order to do my resume, right?
Like, this is crazy. And then on the job after about 6 weeks, you know, learning on a mainframe system and so on. And it was kind of crazy. They needed somebody to handle preauthorized payments and figure out a process for that. And nobody knew what they were doing, including me, but somehow I became the PAP supervisor payment supervisor.
I'm not kidding. That was the name and I had 21 people gradually hired people started stealing people off the customer service queues initially to help me create this process. These payments, these repayments for student loans. Anyway, it's just nuts. So it was one of those things where it was so hands on.
I worked from seven in the [00:08:00] morning till at least seven at night every day with pleasure. I loved it and I, it was a time in my life I think when, so my co workers became my friends and they still are to this day from that experience. so, so I just, I shared that because I, it made me recognize that as much as I'm a, you know, I have an education degree, I'm a teacher, I'm a trainer, I'm a facilitator and coach, there's nothing that replaces that learning as you go and being thrown into it a little bit.
That said, those kinds of hours and some of the stuff I put up with back then, I don't, I don't have the, the patience or willingness to do that now, but I'm glad I had that experience. So after about 9 months. You know, as the, as the, the team leader for that department a training opportunity came up to be a trainer for the call center and the operations group, the processors, and I wasn't, it didn't even [00:09:00] occur to me to apply, didn't even occur to me, and somebody, a colleague had said, hey, are you going to put your name in the, in the hat for that?
And I said, well, oh, I don't know about that. And they're like, you've just trained your entire team. You've created all the processes. You have a teaching degree. What are you talking about? It's totally up your alley. And I said, okay. So I threw my hat in the ring. And I got the role. So I was a one woman training department.
For a while, and then from there anyways, we can, we could talk more about the stories around there. Then I moved into a project management position and then came back was a manager of the department and then moved slowly as I moved to different organizations and so on into director and then VP of talent management.
My last role. So it was kind of, it looks like a traditional trajectory if you were to review my resume, but there's a lot of lateral moves in there and a lot of. Okay. You know, exposure to various areas of the business. Yeah, absolutely. And I'm curious about something when you [00:10:00] said, you know, you've took you take on this 1st CSR role and you have 21 people.
My mind was a little bit blown because I'm thinking, like, so how old were you then? Well, the CSR role, that was just it taking calls. It was once I moved over to the preauthorized payment piece, and then I'm, I'm realizing, because even the GM didn't understand. He's just like, can you figure this out? We have all of these preauthorized payment forms that have arrived from students, and I guess we should get them set up.
They haven't even fully created the systems or the platforms to process it. So I had to teach myself Excel to do that. And then I'm Every day, the mailbag would come in, the mailbag, like we're talking about how old I am, and like with buckets of these things and I'm looking at it going, well, I'm no longer keeping up with these and so I would steal the CSR.
So that's how the team grew. Okay but so in terms of how old I was, I, God, I think I was 24, 25. And this is, this is, this is the interesting thing, right? So we take, [00:11:00] we'll get into this more, but we promote really great people into leadership roles. And it sounds like not only did the processes and systems not, not exist, but there was probably not a whole lot of training for you about how to, 20 people and like lead them to get the work done.
None. There was none of that back then at all. It was figure it out as you go, build the plane as you fly it. And, you know, that actually suits me. I've come to realize that I don't like things to be too, too locked down myself. I'm a builder. So every, every time I've changed roles is because I, I got bored, you know, and I'm sort of like, okay, I need to build a team.
I need to build some pro, you know, strategies. That's kind of my thing. But, you know, I also like. Okay. Structure enough. It's not, you know, it's not sort of where I live full time, but I'm, I enjoy bringing structure to chaos [00:12:00] and helping people, you know, bringing them along with me. So, collaborating around.
Okay, so let's make this process efficient. And that translated after I ran that payments department for a while into the training role, because now I'm sitting down beside a processor who was doing a God, it was called. Reamortization of student loans, essentially. Okay. And it's a very technical process and there's, you know, math in there and all that kind of stuff.
So what I would do is I'd sit say, okay, Cynthia, I'm going to sit down beside you and I'm just going to watch you process this. And I would just take notes and I would note exactly what what you're doing and what screens you're looking at the screens. Like, it was all mainframe, like. Terrible, and there was no training manual or anything, so I'd watch what they'd done, and they pieced it together, and then I'd look at the next person, and I'd have, I'd observe them, and then I'd figure out, like, oh, my God, they're all doing it differently, and some of them are flipping back and forth between screens multiple times, it's [00:13:00] inefficient, and so it really helped me kind of learn how, how can we streamline this for efficiency, seeing it from that perspective.
And then to write the process and then to train new people in the process, it was harder to train the people that had been there because they didn't want to change how they were doing it. And so some things never change. Yes, exactly. That's the way it still is. It sounds like you've really learned a lot in how you showed up as a leader.
And work with them to, you know, envision of the bigger system, the thing that you were there to do, create the process, et cetera. When you think about, like, the journey that you had overall, were there challenges that you faced particularly along the way that kept showing up for you? Oh, God, yes, of course.
Yes, it was not all sunshine and roses. I can tell you right now. [00:14:00] There were some real, real bumps in there. So, because I, I have this sort of visionary leadership style. I'm, I'm nice. Everybody says she's so nice. I can tend to leave people in my dust a little bit though because I'll see something and I'm just moving.
I'm super fast moving. It's both my, one of my biggest strengths. And it's also 1 of the things that gets in my way over and over and over because I've been in and out of burnout about 3 times in my life professionally. And it's not something I want anybody to to experience. So what I say, what I mean when I say that I left people in my desk, it was like, I was super clear on what needed to be done and where we needed to go.
I had this vision, but I didn't always spend enough time with people explaining it. I maybe didn't repeat it enough or check for understanding. And so, as much as I'm a, I'm a, you know, a trainer, a facilitator, and I would do that in a classroom setting, say, I wasn't [00:15:00] always doing that in the course of just the job, right, when leading my people.
On the daily. Yeah, so I get frustrated when I'm like, geez, why aren't they keeping up? What, what's going on? And so, it was quite, quite humbling, you know, had to fall on my face a few times with some people and then be able to figure out, okay, what are they actually.
Really, what do you actually need from me? Let me make this. Yes, going back and being curious about that. It's it's interesting. I I don't know that we've ever talked about this, but we have some things in common I too have left people in my dust and Didn't realize so I had the awareness Because i'm very high achieving and those are the things that I wanted to do and I didn't realize until someone gave me Very specific feedback about how unsettling it was for other people.
Yes. Right. So I think I think it's it's really great awareness to have and I and I often think, you know, if we could even just imagine for a [00:16:00] moment, you know, if there were a camera, we could watch ourselves. What could we learn even just from that? One question. Yes. Well, in my coaching work, you know, like, I work with leaders from all disciplines and industries.
I don't in my private coaching side. You know, I, I see it everywhere. It's not unique to to any particular 1 area, but it's this idea that, you know, Unless you're a serial killer and you're hiding it really well, 99. 9 percent of us wake up in the morning with the best intentions and we are not saying to ourselves, I'm going to go out and piss off somebody on my team.
We're not doing that, right? We're getting up, I'm going to go out and I'm going to do my best. Unfortunately we get in our own way sometimes and because we're not. thinking about our impact. So our intent is good, and it's not aligned with the impact we want to have. And so when I recognize when I realized, you know, hang on this frustration piece with [00:17:00] people not keeping up.
And you know, and when I think back, it's actually magical to me and a miracle that that I had the most incredible team and we, we got along great and everything, but you know, in spite of this, but when I was getting signals from my team where they were equally frustrated, I'm thinking, okay, I have to look in the mirror here.
Right? What's going on? So my intention is not for people to feel frustrated. It's not for me to feel frustrated. That's what's happened. So. The impact is I want them to feel clear in terms of what we're trying to do. I want them to feel supported. I want them to feel motivated and I want them to believe that I have their back.
So if I want those things, how am I going to make them happen? And that's when the shift happens. It's about, okay, I need to involve them. I need to tell them that that's my intention. They can't read my mind. They can't read your mind. Yeah, absolutely. So how did [00:18:00] you go about making that change? Because it is, it's interesting, right?
Because it's human behavior. We've come to be this person who has a clear vision in your case and knows where you're going. how did you make the change? The core thing for me, and I just want to say, by the way, it's, it's not like the change is wholly made. I still am. I'm glad you said that.
Okay, so I don't want people to think that I've all of a sudden just eradicated this tendency to go so fast. That's not the case. It's something I'm continuously working on. And, and it's tripped me up even in, you know, my executive role, you know, because context changes and personalities change and dynamics.
But I would say that. I have gotten a whole lot better. And, and it doesn't trip me up as often. And that's the goal, right? We want to do it less frequently once we figure out how we get in our own way. The key thing for me was training myself to slow down. Right, just to slow down and to be present, and I wouldn't have called it those things back then, [00:19:00] but I remember going for it was actually a customer service training called Achieving Extraordinary Customer Relations.
And it was amazing. Oh, my God, I got certified in it. It was a five day certification. And then I trained the entire customer service workforce and it was, it was game changing for. For the quality of service that we provided. But one of the things in there that I loved was it talked about the human business model.
So it's this idea of entering every interaction on a human level. Even if it's brief, you've got to know your audience. So some people want to, you know, chat, chit chat a little bit more other people. It's like, just, just an acknowledgement, right? I see you. How are you doing today? And then. Move to business and then exit on the human level as well, you know, see that person, acknowledge them and I did a lot of that for sure instinctively because I'm an extrovert and I actually like people and yet having it taught to me in that sort of way and we talked a little bit [00:20:00] about, you know, Yeah, it's that seeing people, acknowledging them, what it did for me was I remember my team, a team would come in and I'd be typing madly, you know, on my, on my computer, looking at my green screen and somebody, hey, got a minute, which all leaders know, hey, guess, just a minute.
Oh, my God, they're at my cubicle door here. And, and so I'd be like, yeah, and I keep typing and what's up? And I think that I could multitask. No, through that training, I remember, wait a second, if I'm typing, and I'm not really looking at them, I'm not really there for them. And I'm not answering. So I trained myself just as a very concrete example to turn my swivel chair towards my door, say, Hi, Cynthia, how are you doing?
Can you can you just give me 1 sec? I'm just finishing this email, please. And then I want to give you my full attention. So I would tell her right? So I'd finish. I literally put my hands under my thighs on my chair, sit on your hands. sit on my hands and look at that person in the [00:21:00] eye and say, how can I help you?
And it really shifted things for me because it slowed me down, slowed them down. I could be very present. I wasn't, you know, half listening, half solutioning. I was fully in it. So it really created an efficiency, even though it was counterintuitive to my idea of efficiency, which was to go faster, faster, faster.
Well, these are the things that we tell ourselves, right? And we, and I think it's also amplified because it's what we see other humans do. Yes, that's a great point. Like we also experience it when we go and put our, you know, hand on the door and knock and ask for, Hey, do you have a minute? When we also know it's not a minute.
Yeah, you're bringing but you're bringing me back to and I can't remember which specific role but I actually was in a position to be able to change the setup of the desk For that for that very reason because it was just people facing [00:22:00] right? So exactly what you did just different different idea with it you know, and I mean This is going off on a bit of a tangent though, but you know, so I, and some of the people I coach and the leaders, they like, oh, the got a minute thing.
Like, you know, I, I, so part of what I help talent leaders with, you know, my group program, the talent trust and in private thought partner work, it's around. Helping them put skin in the game and make time. You have to create it. It's not going to happen magically create the time to think strategically and to look at the big rocks that you say you can never get to because you're too busy.
We're all too busy meetings, meetings, meetings. Oh, my God, there's so many meetings that you're double booked, triple booked, and you've got people standing at your door or pinging you on instant message saying, got a minute. Well, it's easy to feel powerless about that and to think there's nothing you can do.
And there's a lot you can do. So that's something that I learned as well. So [00:23:00] so if I really, if you came to my, to my door, whether I'm looking out or, or facing in at my computer. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And say, God, a minute, if I really don't, then I need to turn around and say, Hey, it's so important to me that I help you.
And right now I'm in a crunch. So it, so is this something that can wait until tomorrow to acknowledge the person even better? Tell people ahead of time, Hey, the next three hours I am here and my door is. Is closed or, or, you know, or I put a chair there or whatever you have to do, or I've paused instant messenger.
If we're working remotely, like so many of us, and it's not because you're not important to me, but I am going to ask you to be old fashioned. If there is an emergency, a training emergency, or emergency on me on me, because I, I have done airplane mode here because I need to think yes. And I need time [00:24:00] to ease into it and then to do it.
So it's not that you're not important. Absolutely. I love that. And I think it's, it's the point that you raise that I want to pull out a little bit more is how much control you really do have. Yeah. Right. I know, I know, because I felt the powerlessness myself. And also, it's so much easier to see it in someone else.
And so I can imagine that as people are listening to this, when you have schedules and meetings like that, like, really think about what are the ways that you can give yourself create that time. That you can actually do that for yourself. Oh, absolutely. And some organizations, I mean, their meeting culture really is toxic.
Like it really is very poorly managed and, and it's a time waster. People are not clear enough on the purpose, the roles, the responsibilities. There's meetings for the sake, sake of meetings and, and people feel like they can't say no, right? 100%. And. [00:25:00] Even in those organizations, there's still, there's still an opportunity for you to take back a little more control over your.
Absolutely. That's culture for for better when it comes to meetings. Yes, 100 percent it's it's kind of like, the thing that's coming to my mind is life can happen. To me or for me? I get to decide. Beautiful. Absolutely. So I want to go back to your leadership journey and you talked about some of the challenges that you faced.
Do you feel or did you experience, Lisa, that those challenges were the same ones as you progressed or did they change? I'm pausing because, I think we are who we are. And when we get in our own way, all that's happening is that we are overusing or underusing one of our core strengths. You know, so it's this idea of weakness being really strengths magnified. So my need for speed [00:26:00] and my ability to drive hard and get amazing results in short periods of time.
It's great. That's what made me an MVP for most of my career, I would say, okay, I became known for that. And it's also what led me to the burnout piece. there's a people pleaser deep down inside me and I, and, I've done a lot of work with her. Let me tell you. So now I'm quite comfortable in many cases with saying no and with protecting boundaries.
But, you know, again, it's an ongoing. Journey, it's a practice of, of, you know, learning more quickly to notice when I'm getting into that speed demon mode, which is no longer serving me or others around me when I'm being people pleasing, you know, I, it's step back, hang on what needs to happen here. So I would say the challenges are probably fundamentally within me the [00:27:00] same because I'm overusing my strengths in these cases.
The context has changed over time. So I would say that, you know, when I've changed context and moved into a new role in the organization, it's almost like you have a step back 2 steps back because you got good at recognizing that and. And playing to your strengths and not overusing or underusing. Now, in this new context, you're not noticing as soon as early because things around you have changed.
Does that make more sense? It makes complete sense to me. And I'm curious about for you specifically, how do you, like, what are the cues and clues for you as you change those organizational contexts to tune into that who you are? it's learning to notice the physical symptoms first because I find that's the, you know, feeling it in our body. It's and I'm not trying to be all fluffy and we will it's it's a proven thing when it comes to how we're wired. Neurologically. So it's this [00:28:00] idea that I, I'll, I'll feel it's sort of in my stomach.
It's like a butterflies that are, but not in an excited way. They're, they're, they're anxious butterflies and they're fluttering about in my, in my tummy. Really quickly, I also feel like I'm not thinking clearly, my head's in more of a swirl I'm starting to have difficulty with making a decision around something.
I feel like I'm second guessing, I'm back and forth, back and forth, and I feel, and my breath gets more shallow in my chest. Those are the signals for me, so, so when I notice those, and this could be sort of on a sustained level at work, you know, I'm realizing, oh my God, as I, I just went through an entire day and I don't know that I ever took a deep breath or it could be in the moment and I'm in a meeting and I'm feeling hijacked.
So different contexts, right? Longer term. When I notice these things. It's to remember, okay, I really can't afford to take a break [00:29:00] right now. I'm telling myself that that's exactly when I need to take a break and I need to slow down. I need to take the walk, take the nap, do the journaling, talk to my coach, talk to my husband, cuddle the dog, whatever it is.
That's what I've learned is that. When I'm starting to spin and I think I can't pause, that's exactly what I need to do. Mm hmm. I love that. And I'm, I'm hearing like the body doesn't lie. The body doesn't lie. It's broken down on me. That's been, I've actually been sick several times. Because, because the burnout, the anxiety got so strong before I noticed these symptoms.
Well, I think I'm going to just share. I mean, I, too, have experienced that and have similar noticings within my own person, my own self. And also, I think it's. Around just noticing when you said, you know, this is not woo [00:30:00] No, right like the new leaders that are out there that are experiencing. They've just getting promoting They're getting teams some of them like hundreds of people within the teams.
They don't have the support and the resources they need Be curious and tune in to what your body is saying to you because it does have messages Yes, and if we ignore the messages over time, your body will put its foot down, literally, and make you sick. So I went through, I remember, We're over a year and it was a couple years.
I had chronic sinus infections to the tune of 13 one year that that it was just and I powered through them and I never gave myself enough rest to get over them. And it was my body going, Lisa, something's got to give I'm going to stop you to stop you. Yeah. Absolutely. 100%. I'm curious for you, Lisa, as you think [00:31:00] about, you know, the journey that you've had, is there anything that you would have wished you would have known prior to saying yes to the leadership roles you've had?
Yeah, so, there's a few things that come to mind in terms of things that I wish I'd known, and you and I were talking about this before we hit record, too. You Part of it is I wish I'd known that everybody has an inner critic, that we all have this internal voice that can be quite nasty and tells us lies.
Now it's trying to protect us, that's fine. The goal is not to get rid of it because it's a protection. But it is to, to know that that's a thing because I have so many clients that'll say to me, Am I the only person that talks to myself this way? No, I do it too. And I'm a coach and I still do it. You know, you're the same, Cynthia.
It's so, it's so interesting. I think knowing, I'm making sure that my son knows that that is a thing because, you know, as much [00:32:00] as he he may not be ready to grasp some of these, these concepts around self regulation and self coaching I want him to know it's normal when he gets into those. Those spins, those mind spins, and when he's feeling badly about himself, he's feeling anxious or scared about something.
So that's a key thing that I wish I had known. The other thing too is I, you know, I came to it a bit later. I, I think as teenagers, you know, we, is when we start with, you know, our parents don't know anything. Like, we're so certain that we know the right thing. And so, I think that it's more important to get it right than to be right, and I'm not the first person that said that.
There's actually a famous person probably that made a quote around that, but it's really resonates with me. How can we get it right versus be right? And I don't need to get all the credit all the time. I don't. I need to toot my own horn certainly and let people know [00:33:00] what I'm up to and, and, you know, stand in front of my, my career and in my life.
And at the same time, I need to bring others along with me and involve them and be open to the fact that I don't have all the answers and I've only ever got part of the story. There's always a different perspective and how we are. I guess I'm going to connect this back to something you said earlier around, you know, when we have a velocity and we want to go somewhere in order to bring other people along when we do that and take the time to engage them to not only get the buy in, but also hear their ideas, their perspective.
I mean, sometimes I think about what, what could be created if we didn't have our ego Owning the show, right? Which is, which is what our, our ego wants to own the show. Well, you know, I, I do a lot of work with teams of leaders and individual leaders around being a coach like leader. Now, you and I are trained coaches [00:34:00] went to the same school.
Shout out to Adler. And we know it's not the same thing as being a leader and a coach because there's because right away because you're in, you know, responsible for performance evaluation and, and, you know, comp merit increases and bonuses and stuff like that. You can never be wholly objective, you can bring a coach like approach.
So when I'm trying to help people learn and develop their skills. Help leaders with this. The thing that always, that I always share is, do you remember first day of foundations at Adler? Oh, yes. I don't know if your day was as humbling as my day was, but I think it probably was. So here I've done an an earlier certification in coaching.
Oh, God, like 10 years earlier, like a shorter one and so on. And, and, and so I wasn't. Complete newbie here, right? And I had been leading people by that point for 25 years and teaching people how to lead people. So I had, yeah, I've done a lot. So I thought I knew what [00:35:00] was right and I knew what I was doing.
So in the afternoon, they have us coach. Appear. Yeah. And you know, you're, the whole goal of being coach-like and being a coach is you have no agenda, you have no answers. You are not there to give advice. , you are there to help the person discover what they need to do, what they might already know.
Well, my God, , I remember saying, Cynthia, so what, you know, what would you like to, what are you bringing to coaching? And anyways, the woman I was partnered with, she went on with this whole story about something she was struggling with, it was a personal story, and I immediately was like, she needs to do this, and I was like, I can't say that.
And I was stymied, you know, I was like, so have you thought about maybe doing some time blocking and, and, you know, you know, so I'm offering suggestions, but I'm thinking that, you know, or I'm leading her. I was basically leading her to what she should do. And when I found out, well, no, that's not the way it works.
It [00:36:00] was, it was quite the wake up call. Yes, I remember it well, because I almost quit and didn't come back.
I know. And so, It's funny because that need to be right is so ingrained and I think it's very part, very much a part of corporate culture and of how leaders think they need to be. I need to have the answers. I need to, I need to, you know, I can't make a mistake. I've got to sound really articulate all the time.
I mean, people that I invite on my podcast, Talent Management Truths are talent leaders, HR leaders, some of them very senior, almost every single one of them. The men are a little bit less, have this problem a little bit less, I would say, but almost every single one of them is like, why? Well, I'm not really sure.
I've listened to some of your guests. They all sound so put together, so experienced, so intelligent. I don't know that I would have much to add to the party. Like this is a thing. Yes, I know. It's a thing. Right? And so I think it's important to to kind [00:37:00] of remember that We all have something to offer, and we don't have to be right.
Part of getting it right is to be open to, to stepping outside that comfort zone and, and asking questions and remembering that if you've got a question, other people do. Yeah, absolutely. I'm going all over the place a little bit, but there's just so many different paths we can, we can pursue on this topic.
There are, and I think the one that I want to kind of circle back to is one I often hear in addition to what you've shared so far, which is there are so many leaders that feel that because they are in this leadership position, they actually think and believe that they must have. All the answers And it's it just it creates so much pressure For them to feel like they can't even ask for support.
They can't even say that they might be making a mistake Like it's just so much pressure out there for them So I think it's you pulled out [00:38:00] a couple of things that I think are really key the inner critic piece So, you know if we could put a headline out there and tell everybody we all have one Yeah, we all we all have the we all have the work of managing that that inner critic or the inner ally And also, we don't have to have the answers.
Like, is there actually a book of knowledge somewhere that tracks all the quote unquote right answers? Like, there just isn't, right? There just isn't. And even with, you know, the whole thing with GPT and all that and the news and AI, it was funny because I was in a group session. This class I was in the other day, and there was a lawyer in there, and she said, oh, don't use it for research because in my, you know, as I played around with it, some of my clients, it's bringing like dated stuff, like 1, 2 years old, even that is no longer that relevant, you know, use it to sift through stuff.
Great. But, you know, even chat can't. Can't be all knowing. It just isn't a thing. It just isn't possible and yet we have so many people [00:39:00] striving out there for that excellence, for that best right answer, right? So I know, I know, I do a lot of coaching around that. I suspect that you do too. Well and embracing the iteration.
Embracing the iteration. I love that. Just getting started too. Just, just, you know, sort of saying, Part of, you know, in the strategy work I do with people oftentimes, you know, clients, when, when I say clients, I'm talking about stakeholders for talent leaders. So this would be, you know, say it's, you know, the SVP of operations needs a program, you know, they're saying I need these people trained to be able to do X, but they come to you and they kind of prescribe what they want.
It's a training program on. Blank. Yes. And so you're like, Oh, you go away. And, and then, you know, you're sort of thinking about, okay, well, what's the actual impact? What's the outcome here? And, and you're trying to figure it out. So, if you don't know, and you can't actually articulate it, then then it's time to go back to that stakeholder, that client and say, I think you and I need to sit [00:40:00] down and get really clear on what's going to be different.
If we do something before we spend time and money and and I put my team on this. So that's part of strategy. You don't have to write an entire eight page document and then go back to your client. If you can't get past the problem statement and the outcomes, then that's part of strategy is, is, is knowing when to go back and when to iterate and when to collaborate.
Absolutely. And getting the information you need and the humble place to be in to go ask for more. Yes. Right. Because I don't know about you, but. I think you and I are alike in this way, too. We've probably gone away and created awesome programs and been all ready to go. And then the... Take you back to the client.
They're like, that's not what I want Bring me a rock. It's kind of like being bring me a rock, right? And you start to discover that it's bring me a rock and then you're like, okay, I have two choices I can keep bringing the rocks Or I can go back and have a conversation about what does this thing look like to you [00:41:00] when it's done?
What is the outcome you want? What is the result we're trying to achieve here, right? How will we know when we've won? Yeah, and keep asking that question. Don't wait until the end of the project, especially if you're looking at a three month, six month, one year kind of thing. You know, so I see this with my clients a lot.
It's like, you got to bake in. That back and forth, that iterating, that validating, all the way through. Do not waste your time from milestone to milestone if you haven't validated. Okay, here's where we're at. This is how things are looking. What's changed in your world? What's different? How does this still fit in or not?
Absolutely, absolutely. So Lisa, I'm curious for you, you have, I was excited to bring you on the podcast because you have a particular expertise around talent management and a lot of new leaders don't have a lot of awareness to what that is, what that kind of function is. [00:42:00] And what advice would you have for these people who are out there leading people?
Sometimes for the first time. Right. So, so my, my advice would be
I think you've got to be proactive. I know some organizations are more mature in terms of the support that they provide leaders from a talent management perspective. Talent management to me, I use that term in my business and for my podcast. It's not actually my favorite though. Ironically, it's because it's sort of a well known bucket of, Expertise in, in my discipline. I prefer to call it employee experience to be honest, because what it is, it's all about how do we attract. The right people and do an amazing job of onboarding them. And then how do we get them job ready with the job, you know, the, the, the baseline skills they need for the role.
They've been hired into that. They didn't already bring. How do we get them oriented to that? And then how do we develop them ongoing so that they [00:43:00] continue to grow and feel. engaged and invested in, in the company and prepare them for leadership roles or for more senior professional roles. And then how do we plan for succession, right?
As these people, you know, which ones are, are the next, you know, director, the next leader, the you know, of the division, whatever it is, how do we look at that and, and, and develop them? Intentionally towards these things and for the people that we don't see moving into those roles. How do we keep them interested?
And keep them feeling valued all the way through to if an employee exits, whether voluntarily or involuntarily, how do we make sure that is the most graceful exit? Right? And that people remain an ambassador for the program or for the company rather. so that's what talent management is for me.
So what I think it's important for leaders to know is that that is that that discipline exists and [00:44:00] that even if you don't have awareness, there might be people in your organization with usually within an HR department who are charged with. Helping more senior leaders look at their talent holistically on a semiannual and annual basis, right?
And they're actually saying, okay, let's look at all the folks on your team, Lisa, and let's figure out, you know, if you won the lottery tomorrow and said, hey, I'm leaving in 2 weeks, who could step into your shoes? And the reason that's important, even if you haven't had exposure to that is because I think all leaders need to be constantly looking at their own growth.
How, you know, and who knows what I'm doing and who knows what I want to do. Right? We've got to want to speak up for what we want and get feedback. And, hey, Cynthia, what do you see me as being great at? I guess some of my biggest, most important career shifts have been 'cause somebody tapped me on the shoulder and said, you know what?
I see something in you. Yes. And I over here and I've been told, I've done that for many [00:45:00] people and you know, where they didn't see it in themselves, but you also have to be sort of open, ready to, to receive. But you need to be looking at your own teams as well to sort of say, okay, from, there's performance.
We're always thinking about performance. Who's performing really well? Who's got the potential as a leader? But the two things that get overlooked often are who aspires to be the leader, because I can't tell you how many C suite people I have worked with and work with who have identified people as their potential successor who have no inclination and do not want it.
So we actually have to have conversations with people once we've identified who we think could succeed us. Do they aspire to it? Are they willing to do the work? Right. To get the, the education exposure experience to be ready for it. And then finally agility. Do they have the agility to make that, to make that change?
And I mean, mental agility, I mean, emotional agility, I'm, you know, it's, it's some folks and there's nothing wrong with this, [00:46:00] you get to the manager role, the VP level, and that's whatever it is, whatever the level. And they're amazing. They don't want to go any further. And it's really not something that, that, that.
They want to flex to, right? So that's okay. But let's, let's be cognizant of that. And let's, let's look at that and have the conversations about that. So, so for new leaders. Know that there may be people already looking at that for you. Right? And if you're curious, ask, right? The other thing is to actually seek out the resources in your company.
If they are there and say, help me look at my team. You know, objectively and with a fresh perspective because I see them every day. And I have, I have ideas about why they're great or why they're not. And I want to be challenged on that. Invite that into your world. I love that. I love that so much because it also ties back to what you said earlier [00:47:00] around building that buy in, right?
Because you're almost as the new leader, the way that you've painted this picture and invitation is for the new leader to go out and get the support that they need and say, Hey, come here, come with me so we can have a conversation about what I see. So that I can then enable you to go back and have the conversations you're already having, perhaps around here.
Yeah, right. I think we tend to try to go it on our own too much and effort through and doesn't need to be like that. And even if you're, you might be shaking your head, you know, listeners, some of you going, no, there really is no 1 here, you know, maybe you're, In a small organization or it's not well resourced from that perspective.
So, okay. What are you going to do about that? Yeah. Because resources, can you tap into in your network? If it feels true, then what, right? This question I always like to ask my clients. So if that, if all of what you've just said is true [00:48:00] and this problem still exists, what now, what, how do you want to solve it?
Cause there's still choices that could be made. Are you familiar with the TED dynamic? The book? No, I'm not. But it sounds like I'm going to write it down. It's so great. Yeah, you might want to put it in your show notes. And I just, I'm sorry, I'm forgetting the name of the author at the moment, but there's a website and everything.
So, T. E. D. actually is a, is an acronym for the empowerment dynamic. And it's basically, it takes a concept called the dreaded drama triangle, which is about the 3 roles that we all tend to play from time to time. So there's victim persecutor. And, Oh, what's the other one, judge? I can't remember. So victim is the one that I see most frequently in my clients and in myself.
Okay. So victim when you're in the victim mindset, it's kind of like, well, there's no one here. So I can't get help. So I'm not going to, I'm just gonna, I'm just gonna. [00:49:00] You know, marinate in the fact that it sucks. I'm going to stay in the soup. I'm going to stay in the soup. Yeah, I'm just going to, I'm just going to be bitter.
And it's not a nice place to be. We don't actually like being there, and sometimes when we're low energy, we're exhausted, we're sick, you know, it, it, you can go there. So the point is not to never go there, because you can't kind of help yourself sometimes. Things happen, okay? The goal is to, to learn that there's a, there's an, Bye.
Alternative personality you can move into another mindset. So the, the empowerment dynamic talks about these Oh, what's the word I can't think of it. The, the antidote. So for victim, if you realize, Oh, I'm sitting in victim right now, we want to figure out how do I shift into creator mode? Yes. Yes.
So I'm feeling like I can't do anything. I feel like nothing's in my control. So in order to create, I need to figure out, okay, well, what is in my control? What can I do? Not what [00:50:00] can't I do? You know, and then the other example is persecutor. You're viewing someone as a persecutor. What if you feed them as a challenger who's here to teach you something?
What are you anyway? So I just people to take a look at at that book. It's written in the form of a fable, but it's quite effective. I'm going to take a look at it myself and I think that 1 point I would just add to that is. As so, I mean, we, we, we all can be a victim at times. Yeah. And I guess the thing is, do we want to be bitter or better victim or victorious?
I don't know. We get to choose. We get to choose. Right. That's it. And I go back to the Adler model for that, because at the heart of change is the choice we get to choose. Yep, starts with awareness, getting aware on what you really want, what's getting in your way, noticing that, getting really good at noticing it earlier, more frequently.[00:51:00]
And then from that, you can start making these new choices once you have those successes from trying, experimenting, not everything's going to work, but once it does, that's where your confidence, that trust in self will grow. Absolutely. Lisa, I have learned so many things from you on this. On this call today, I'm going to just try to recap a couple of them.
So look in the mirror once in a while, slow down, be present, know your audience, enter and exit from a human perspective. There's always something you can do. Turn into tune into your physiology, physiology, listen for the signals. Everyone has an inner critic. It's totally normal. We can work with it. Or against it.
Let's get it right versus be right. Be proactive. Consider the employee experience. Ask questions and seek out resources to support [00:52:00] yourself. Is there anything that you feel that I've missed? Well, that's pretty thorough, Sydney. Like, did I really say all that? Beautiful. Beautiful. Thank you for that. That that summary.
You did say all of that, and I'm curious if there's anything else that you would love the listeners to know about you, where to find you, how you can help. Absolutely. So people can find me at ca There's multiple ways to work with me. I have a group program specifically exclusively for talent and HR leaders.
That said, I do private coaching results coaching. I call myself a results coach. very focused on getting clear objectives and measurements in place before we start. So I do work with leaders of all all stripes, all levels, mostly in the senior space though. Well, and I will just do a shout out to Lisa, because Lisa has been my coach and I can, I can attest to everything that she is saying and more.
And so if you're really, I think I would put an [00:53:00] additional plug here. If you are an HR leader or a talent leader, and you want the space to be able to find your own way of making your, your way through what you're being asked to do connect with Lisa, you will be very glad that you did. Oh, that is so generous of you, Cynthia.
I really appreciate. Yes. And it's it's, you know, whether it's. Mindset more personal goals or, you know, that's the, the results coaching, but if it's really around, oh, my God, I have to put in this massive program and I don't even know where to start in my state, that's a different kind of service.
It's not the pure coaching. It's more than that. And that would be my pleasure to work, with leaders who are ready to make a difference in their organizations. Absolutely. And I think that is a perfect way to just end this time that we've had together. Lisa, I appreciate you from the bottom of my heart, and I look forward to connecting with you soon.
I appreciate you. I'm so glad [00:54:00] you reached out to me that time on Instagram way back when. I am too.
