LM Ep 100
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Hello. Hello, Lisa here. Since you're listening to this particular podcast, I imagine you're likely a leader in the area of talent, HR, people, culture, [00:01:00] L& D, employee experience, or OD. Are you also a talent leader who is longing for a safe sounding board to bounce ideas off of? Who's thirsty for some fresh new ideas that will actually work?
Who maybe needs to influence multiple stakeholders who don't always know what they want? Maybe you're somebody who wants to get out of their own way and who's ready for expert, ongoing, and confidential mentoring. If you answered yes to one or more of those statements, Then we need to talk in addition to my group programs, I work privately with a select few clients as their talent management thought partner, I will help you over the next 90 days, finally create the space, the intention and the strategy to implement an initiative.
That's critical to your team's longer term impact and legacy. Let's chat and see if there's a fit. Book me online at greenappleconsulting. ca slash contact.
The HR department, a common department name in countless [00:02:00] organizations. Yet, is it the right one for this period in time? Was it ever the right one? In today's episode, my guest makes the case for shifting this department's title to People and Culture, which is a shift I'm seeing more and more of my clients and podcast guests make.
My guest is Anita Bhandari. In her role as Chief Human Resources Officer for the City of Burnaby, Anita is passionate about promoting a positive team environment, creating connections, and developing programs to empower and enhance staff talent. She brings almost 20 years of experience in the private and public sectors and has a wide range of expertise in the people and cultural arena.
In this episode, you'll discover a case to stop calling your department human resources, a window into the world of a support function for a large municipality, and a couple of examples of clear what's your why organizational statements. Thanks for listening. Enjoy.
Anita - Lisa track GMT20230830-163910_Recording_separate1: Hello [00:03:00] and welcome back to Talent Management Truths. I'm your host Lisa Mitchell and today I'm joined by Anita Bhandari. Anita is the CHRO of the City of Burnaby in British Columbia, Canada. Welcome to the show, Anita.
Anita GMT20230830-163910_Recording_separate2: Thank you, Lisa. It's a pleasure to be here.
Anita - Lisa track GMT20230830-163910_Recording_separate1: So let's begin by having you share with the audience a little bit about who you are and your career path to date.
Anita GMT20230830-163910_Recording_separate2: Perfect. Thank you, Lisa. Who am I? Well, I, I think the most important part is I am a mother. I'm married. I've got two children and my wonderful dog, Jax, which my kids think I love more than them. But, but professionally, who I? Well, I am the CHRO here at the City of Burnaby. I've had the chance to work in many fields of people in culture, or I guess some people would call HR and I've had a chance to not only dive into different areas of HR or people in culture, I've had a chance to explore different educational areas that expand my knowledge in this area.
In general, I [00:04:00] think I'm just. A person that likes to be around people and, and to help people get to where they need to get to. So I guess that's, that's me in a nutshell.
Anita - Lisa track GMT20230830-163910_Recording_separate1: okay. Have you always worked in municipal government, like, municipal settings?
Anita GMT20230830-163910_Recording_separate2: No, I've actually worked in the private sector as well in tourism, education, consulting, and then I went, came into, to the government sector, primarily in this industry. I've, I've been here for about 20 years now. Yeah.
Anita - Lisa track GMT20230830-163910_Recording_separate1: Okay. Okay, great. And, you know, something that's so interesting, because I often have when I'm meeting people about coming on the show you know, sometimes people will say, well, I'm somebody who grew up in HR, which I, I think would be a lot of your guests. Or they say, I didn't grow up in HR and I came to it late and I bet I'm unusual.
And, and so I haven't done the, the count yet and looked back, like I. Had, you know, probably 80 guests on the show so far just to see what the split is, but I think it's probably about equal actually. So how about you? Did you go to school for [00:05:00] HR?
Anita GMT20230830-163910_Recording_separate2: no, it's funny. You know, I didn't really choose this field. I think it kind of chose me. I don't know if that sounds bizarre, but it's how it happened. I think for me is I just kind of went through the experiences, found different opportunities and just explored them a little bit more and. I think my main goal always was to try to make a difference or an impact.
And then that kind of led me to the field where I am today is where could I, I believe where I could make the most impact and, and create positive change. And it just led me right to this position and I'm loving it. I really feel I can make a difference.
Anita - Lisa track GMT20230830-163910_Recording_separate1: So what, what did you study? I'm just curious.
Anita GMT20230830-163910_Recording_separate2: Oh,
Anita - Lisa track GMT20230830-163910_Recording_separate1: well, and is it related at all?
Anita GMT20230830-163910_Recording_separate2: well, it's interesting. My background is very broad.
I started off actually as a as a legal secretary. That was my first original diploma and then I branched into OHS. Then I went into training. So I got my bachelor's in education and adult [00:06:00] education. My master's is interdisciplinary studies, but I focused on cultural transformation. I've also done some studies on labour relations.
And yeah, I think a little bit of everything for me, Lisa, the thing is not necessarily I didn't. Go to school and say, Look, this is what I want to be. I think what I did was I explore my passions were and then I looked at studies that would help me explore those areas a little bit more. And and that's why this this pathway that's not necessarily straight is kind of my educational background.
Anita - Lisa track GMT20230830-163910_Recording_separate1: Yeah, yeah.
Anita GMT20230830-163910_Recording_separate2: to learn and it's interesting even at my role is where people might expect me to be the know all, you know, everything I don't, I continuously challenge myself, go back, study things, look at things and just evolve myself as a person as well.
Anita - Lisa track GMT20230830-163910_Recording_separate1: well.
I asked because, you know, I, I shared with you earlier that my son is heading into his final year [00:07:00] of high school. And so we've been looking at universities and courses of study. And, you know, a lot of what's going on is you don't know what you don't know. Right? So I think it's really intriguing to sort of understand. that's
why I always begin with this question about what people's paths are, because You know, I think it's, it's helpful to understand that there's no one right.
way. And there's no such thing as a straight line. In the end, it's all always going to be a bunch of zigzags. Like I, I grew up thinking, okay, I'm going to be a teacher because my mom was teaching.
My grandma was teaching my great grandma. And so I did, I was like, okay, it's a straight line. I get, you know, I'm going to do my. My undergrad in, in, you know, linguistics and, and French. And then I went straight to do my Bachelor of Education following that went straight into the, the work world and then realized, Oh God, I actually like this.
Right. So
Anita GMT20230830-163910_Recording_separate2: Yeah.
Anita - Lisa track GMT20230830-163910_Recording_separate1: up two years. So, you know, so thinking I was on a straight line only to be hit with a big zigzag, you know, once I got some more awareness about what worked or didn't work for me.
Anita GMT20230830-163910_Recording_separate2: Yeah. I love you saying that actually the zigzag comment because I think what makes us [00:08:00] stronger as individuals and and really get to know ourselves is exploring these other paths, right? Is you never know if you don't try or explore it. So I'm with you. I think one of the things and maybe I'm completely wrong.
So maybe don't record this. I'm kidding. You know, I think I'll Take my children for example is right now they're starting to explore where they want to go in and studies and there's so much pressure on them saying hey you're going to graduate here you need to know where you're going to go. I think we need to pause and think is not you need to know where you're going to go is where like what do you want to do what would you enjoy and then explore how do we align that with you know that educational piece.
So it's just a little bit of a different approach rather than I want to do this or you need to do this
Anita - Lisa track GMT20230830-163910_Recording_separate1: I am so with you and I appreciate you bringing that up because, you know, it goes back to what you said earlier, you know, like I explored what my passions were and that shows up in all of the different fields of study that you've [00:09:00] pursued and, you know, that's what we've said to Patrick is
he's not like my goddaughter who knows she wants to be a doctor, right?
Like she's, at this point anyway, she's still, she's still firmly on that path. And he's like, I don't really know, like, I still sort of want to explore what's even possible what's out there and so he's going to do a general BA and talk to lots of people and play, you know, experiment in different fields of study until he figures it out.
And I, you know, I'm, I get that that we're privileged and that, you know, that's great that he's able to do that. Not everybody can. But I will tell you, I, I don't take it for granted. I'm very grateful for that because, you know, I think in the end, if I had taken a bit of time to sort of sample without just deciding that that must be my path maybe I would have, wouldn't have moved around as, as much perhaps,
Anita GMT20230830-163910_Recording_separate2: that's right. And isn't there some there's some sort of study and I don't know the numbers off the top of my head is people move around jobs a lot more now than they did before. And I don't really think that's a bad thing. I think one of the The [00:10:00] problems, not the problems. One of the things that we face is people stick in a career for so long in their life and they're miserable.
So why not try to find that, that perfect match for you? That really helps you grow and, and, and do what you love on a daily basis. You're not waking up miserable each day. So I like the moving around.
Anita - Lisa track GMT20230830-163910_Recording_separate1: be okay with the fact that, you know, what you love, like, you know, I was in corporate for 25 plus years and I remember my last one, I loved it, loved it, until I just didn't. And, and it wasn't, you know, Anybody's fault in particular. I mean, there were certain circumstances for sure and, and precious, but I, I was like, I just feel like I'm ready to, to build some new muscles and try something new. right.
And so that's why I went on on my own. But anyways, it's all, it's all very interesting. So let's come back to you and the city of Burnaby BC. I have never been there. I've been to Vancouver, been to Victoria, but have not been to
Anita GMT20230830-163910_Recording_separate2: Oh, you're missing out. You
Anita - Lisa track GMT20230830-163910_Recording_separate1: I know.
Anita GMT20230830-163910_Recording_separate2: Burnaby. I call it the Goldilocks [00:11:00] zone. We're not huge. We're not small. We're just perfect. And we have everything here. So I think you would, you'd really love it.
Anita - Lisa track GMT20230830-163910_Recording_separate1: Awesome. Well, so tell tell us a little bit about what you and your team do for the city of Burnaby. What does that look like?
Anita GMT20230830-163910_Recording_separate2: Yeah. So we are the people and culture department. We do all aspects of HR, your, your typical HR, but I think we've kind of moved that mark a little bit than just through tradition. What we've tried to do is become real people. People if that makes sense is we are starting to come out and become partners with our organization, the community and try to reflect our practices internally to really support the city and growing.
That that's really what we do. And really, I think we keep some foundations in the back of our head is what we do is for the community all and you know, our citizens.
Anita - Lisa track GMT20230830-163910_Recording_separate1: Yeah, so there's really clear view to [00:12:00] who are we ultimately impacting, even if you're taking care of the employees at the city itself, they're then serving, yeah, the citizens. Okay, so, so who's on your team? How is it? How is it organized? Because, you know, something that strikes me is that more and more leaders that I talked to, and I talked to call the function of HR people and culture, which you do.
And maybe you could tell us a little bit about that. Thank you. The reason for that and also how does that kind of guide how you structured your team
Anita GMT20230830-163910_Recording_separate2: Yeah, you know, I was thinking about this question actually before we got online is the evolution of where we've moved to from where we were. I think the first part is, you know, when we look at the traditional name of HR, I think it becomes really, non connected and what you're doing is you're looking at people as objects.
So I think that transition, first of all, for us was having our title changed to people and culture. So we relate to the people and the culture [00:13:00] we're trying to achieve as an organization. So I think that was, that was part to do with our transition of the title. As far as our team right now we have about, I'm going to say 48 employees within.
And within our department, we have everything from equity, diversity, inclusion manager. We have compensation, employment services, labor and employee relations. We have legal we have safety and disability. So again, really, really broad on all those aspects. What we do differently here is we don't work in Florida.
Like we don't have one division working by itself. What we tend to do is really work as a unit and together. Because what we realize is usually when our department is having something come forward, it's not just black and white. There's many different aspects to each situation. So what we do really well is really work as a team and look at the situation and say, Okay.
Let's step [00:14:00] back. What is the real reason why this is happening? And what are the different areas that are impacted? And sometimes it's interesting, something you might think is labor related ends up being related to really feeling like you belong. So what do we need to do as a city?
Anita - Lisa track GMT20230830-163910_Recording_separate1: Yeah. So what sort of struck me there is, is that idea of you know, working as an ecosystem where everything is interconnected and choosing to see it as such. So not making decisions or, or, or, or acting for the sake of acting before taking that step back that you mentioned to say, okay, what do we need to think about as a city?
Yeah. And, you know, I think That's you know, for listeners at some of you work in organizations where that is the case and others are at organizations where there's a real them us mentality in parts or all of the organizations. So, what would you say has been the most important sort of thing that you did or, or motivating factor that, that enabled this, this working together as a unit? [00:15:00]
Anita GMT20230830-163910_Recording_separate2: Ah, okay. That's a, that's a hard question, but it's a good question. So I don't, you know, it's funny if you would have asked me this question, I'm going to say 10 years ago, I probably would have gone right to some of the tasks that we've achieved, like an EDI assessment or training catalog development program.
But I don't. I think that's the most important thing or the thing that's driving what we do. I think what it is, is us understanding the why, and it's interesting, I'm actually going to give this credit to our CAO. One of the things that Leon's done is, he's really tried to embed within the organization the why.
Like, why are we doing what we do as a city? And why are we even working for the city? And then the other part that he tries to embed in us is, Doing the right thing. So for me, I think what that does is it really just reflects in our department because I always go [00:16:00] back to that is why are we doing what we're doing?
And are we doing the right thing? So I don't think there's a specific item that I think is the most important. Of what we're doing, but I think we as a department are echoing those values and beliefs and everything we do so people can align to the bigger why and and the purpose of why they're doing what they're doing.
Anita - Lisa track GMT20230830-163910_Recording_separate1: yes, that that, you know, knowing the why Simon cynics, you know, sort of the architect of that sort of original movement. What's your why? And, and, and it's, you know, the organizations I've seen that have taken that to heart and done really good work in it, including the last organization. I was, I was at Chartwell really had done a great job of.
Of galvanizing all employees, you know, thousands of them behind that. Why, what is it we actually do? And I heard it in what you said earlier, when you said, you know, really, everything we do is for the citizens, for the citizens of the city. And, and, you know, yes, you're focused on employees. I'm sure [00:17:00] serving them, labor relations, employee relations, all the, all the functions, right.
It's so that they are. Equipped.
Anita GMT20230830-163910_Recording_separate2: And even our people, like it's really creating that sense of belonging so they can grow and feel happy because that's a trickling effect, right? As if your staff feel like they belong and they feel safe and happy and supported. I'll tell you, they perform and they perform so well because they're putting their heart into it.
And excuse me, I'm going to kind of take it away from this for a sec, Lisa is you're making me think of that story of Kennedy and I'm sure you've heard it multiple times is one of the things he did was he visited NASA. the story goes as he came to NASA and he walked around and he introduced himself to everybody.
And then he comes in to the hallway where he runs into one of the building service workers or janitors and says, hi, you know, I'm Kennedy, which obviously he knew. And then he said, well, what do you do here at NASA? And the person didn't hesitate right away. What they went to was I put people on the moon.[00:18:00]
And that, that actually always resonates with me is, you know, just understanding, like, why are we doing things? It's not, you know, we're in people and culture and our job is to do labor relations. No, it isn't. Our job is to create a true community that respects people. So they're seen, heard, and valued. It's to serve our citizens.
It's to really provide that exceptional customer service, whether it be internally or externally. So just really stepping back and, and connecting to that.
Anita - Lisa track GMT20230830-163910_Recording_separate1: Yeah, I love that Kennedy story. I've, I've heard that one. That's, that's a great example of how, you know, even the most frontline worker, right, can have an understanding of that trickle effect or that, that connective tissue that runs throughout an ecosystem, right? Beautiful. So something I'd like to just Zigzag over to it to use that analogy again is this conversation you and I had a few months ago around how important you feel it is that people in culture [00:19:00] report to the CEO in an organization, and I was hoping that.
you could. Really explain the rationale for that.
Anita GMT20230830-163910_Recording_separate2: Yeah, so I don't. Okay, so I don't necessarily say it has to be the CEO. What I think it is, is the the department has to be valued just as much as the other departments and placed at a position to make it. Real true decisions. That's that's really what I feel is I I feel unfortunately traditionally An hr department or people in culture department was hidden under a layer So whether it be finance whether it be corp or wherever like they would just place it under a certain area And what that does is it doesn't place people at the heart of what you do It places it under a process or Like a division.
So for me, I think one of the really important things which the city's done really well, and it was actually Leon is when he hired me is he had me report to him. And what that's done is it's [00:20:00] not me. That's pulling this stuff forward. So I really like to echo that. What it is, is it a lie allows me to align with Leon very naturally and really understand where that senior level is and then help drive the people in culture towards it.
So it really does help with that alignment. And then the other part is, I think, because Leon really values people and the culture, like he really, really cares about the staff. What that does is it allows me to understand kind of his views and his philosophies and help echo that. And the best part is he, he'll listen to our views and get a broader understanding of where we're coming from.
So it's just a really good partnership. And I think that's really what organizations should be doing is trying to put the people first versus just having them as objects, you know, a resource, I guess, going back to that is they're more than that. They're people. So let's put them at the heart of what we do and, [00:21:00] and really have them as part of that.
That business decision and and how we move forward.
Anita - Lisa track GMT20230830-163910_Recording_separate1: So I have to say I love what you just described because I, I think that there's so much you know, logic and truth in it you know, for the reasons you stated that you can align more naturally with, with the, with. The, the, the direction right.
Being laid out by the most senior people. And it helps with decision making you mentioned, and it really sends a signal that we see people first versus seeing them as objects or resources.
And, you know, last, where I last worked, you know, it always disappointed me that the the most senior HR person, I was the next level as a VP, reported to the c o o, not to the c e O. And in that instance, It was a very small C suite. I felt that it sent the message that process is more important than people, right?
Because then anyway, just, it was just interesting, right? That, that operations and finance And administration sort of had that figurehead. They [00:22:00] weren't figureheads.
Anita GMT20230830-163910_Recording_separate2: And that's never been like it. It's interesting. And not paying me to talk nice about him, even though he employs me. But, you know, it's funny as I think that's a value he really truly holds. And, you know, he had this before I came here is I'm simply helping him, you know, make this reality as you know, the department head here, but really, Yeah.
You know, he had this vision and he always cares about the people and you go to any department and you ask them, is he truly you know, makes them feel valued. And I think that's that that shows in his structure, the way he operates, and it trickles into our department because I'll tell you, I feel 100 percent supported when I'm doing things, which has an impact on my success and.
You know our department's success.
Anita - Lisa track GMT20230830-163910_Recording_separate1: Yeah, beautiful. Okay. So let's let's move to to another topic, which I'm really curious because you've got, you know, large department. You've got you know, rather big [00:23:00] accountability with enabling city employees to take care of the citizens of Burnaby. So what would you say is your most important project right now or projects?
Anita GMT20230830-163910_Recording_separate2: Oh, okay You know what? I think the most in project important project as a city right now is the burnaby promise Is really it so I i'm not I can't take credit for that because it was leon our cao's vision and noreen our dcao Who had this vision of? Really trying to guide the city. In a certain direction.
And then what we did was we started looking at, our code of conduct, and that's you know, just evolved into something that we call the Burnaby promise. It's a commitment, so it's a different way of looking at a code of conduct, but it's our commitment as. The people within the city of how we want to be seen how we want to be heard and how we want to be moving forward, and it's also how [00:24:00] others like how we want to treat the community and how the community wants to be treated.
So it's just an overarching. Promise that we've put in place that's taken over for for the code of conduct. So I think that's the most important project. And the interesting part is as people in culture, our role is to, to put programs, processes, policies in place that help kind of shape the city to really.
Not only have this piece of paper, but to really live and breathe what it the values and the beliefs are within this document. So that I think is the most exciting thing that we're doing as a city. And then beyond that, I think it's also the EDI work we're doing is it's really. Supporting this is is helping us create space where people are really feeling like they belong.
Anita - Lisa track GMT20230830-163910_Recording_separate1: So, what's an example of of an initiative under that umbrella that you're proud of?[00:25:00]
Anita GMT20230830-163910_Recording_separate2: So I'm going to give a shout out and kudos to the shot are senior manager of E. D. I. He's been with us for a year actually tomorrow. So be his anniversary. So one of the things that we've been doing within that department was we've been celebrating people. So it's not just, you know how organizations put out posters or they say this is this month.
What we've been doing is we've been stepping back and what we've been doing is looking at our population and we've been truly celebrating them through events. Through communication through bringing the staff together to learn more about the various cultures. And I think that for me is is really exciting because it's starting to really support us in creating a community where we understand each other and respect each other a lot more and and can, you know, help us all move forward together.
Anita - Lisa track GMT20230830-163910_Recording_separate1: And are you are you a [00:26:00] hybrid work environment or is it a remote or all in person?
Anita GMT20230830-163910_Recording_separate2: We're hybrid. Yeah, we've introduced a working from home policy, and I think unfortunately, COVID was the catalyst for change for many, including us. But I believe what we did here at the, at Burnaby was really took it, took the bull by its horns and said, you know, Society's changing and we need to go with it.
And this is going to be the new norm. So we did incorporate this working from home. And what we did was we didn't hesitate once COVID was over. We embraced it and said, you know what? People can be productive. But what we did believe is it shouldn't fully be remote. Remote and the idea is because we want to try to keep that connection and really, I think it goes back to what Leon was echoing to the city is, you know.
Is trying to understand why we do what we do and relate to each other so we can provide that extra level of service. And I think in order to do that, [00:27:00] you need to connect with your staff on a more personal basis. So being able to come in and even if it's jokes, like standing at the water cooler, in the lunch room, talking about how was your day in person, or, you know, even a shake of a hand or a hug or whatever you do that adds in that extra layer versus Is being at home where, you know, you're not necessarily adding in that human connection.
So we have a hybrid and it's working well and staff are embracing it.
Anita - Lisa track GMT20230830-163910_Recording_separate1: Yeah, and and the reason I should have explained the context behind the question, because as you were speaking about the EDI work and how, you know, you've been celebrating people through events and different ways to connect and so on. So I was just it had me thinking about how do you do that? Because that's something that that comes up for people quite a lot is well, if we're fully remote or mostly remote, it's much harder to connect and, you know, we can get,
Anita GMT20230830-163910_Recording_separate2: we thought of that. That was, that's actually a good point. Is so a lot of what we do, we also broadcast and bring in zoom capabilities. So a great one [00:28:00] was. You know, we're doing work around truth and reconciliation and learning about the indigenous cultures. And what we did was not only had a platform in person, we had a platform where people could attend remotely.
So they could watch it. And you know, we did that with other events such as Nehru's and other events is we didn't have enough space within that area. And some people were remote. Same thing is we leaned on technology so they could also lean in and experience what we're experiencing.
Anita - Lisa track GMT20230830-163910_Recording_separate1: Yeah, wonderful. Awesome. Thank you for sharing that. So, you know, we're actually coming close to the end of our time together, which is wild, right? Like, I feel like there's so much more to talk about. One of the questions that I have for you is you know, it sounds like you've, you've got buy in through you.
Leon and you know, a lot of support in that. How do you create buy in with your team and with your peers and the people that you serve?
Anita GMT20230830-163910_Recording_separate2: Okay, [00:29:00] for this, you know, I don't think, again, we're going to talk about like collaboration, cross function support, all that stuff, but I think it's more than that. I think what I've been doing is I've been embodying what I'm essentially preaching. Like I've been practicing what I'm saying and, and through that, showing them, teaching them and appreciating them, I think that actually creates them.
Wanting to do the same. So I don't know if that's really answering your question. But what I'm doing is it's not necessarily an item per se, or, you know, your traditional methods. What I'm doing is I'm truly appreciating them for who they are, and helping them through that journey and, and not taking a hard handed approach with them, but more as in, you know, What is the situation and how do we move forward [00:30:00] and how do we do this together?
That that's how I get them to to really buy in and and I guess participate more openly and wholeheartedly.
Anita - Lisa track GMT20230830-163910_Recording_separate1: Yes. So it's, it sounds like if I'm, if I'm understanding correctly, it's, it's not so much, you know, activity or task or skill, it's a way of being. And it sounds like the, the, the way you're being is appreciative, right? And you're demonstrating that through, it's a, you know, Maybe, maybe you could expand a little bit.
Like, it sounds like you're demonstrating the appreciation through saying it out loud, through asking questions. What else?
Anita GMT20230830-163910_Recording_separate2: Yeah, it's,
Anita - Lisa track GMT20230830-163910_Recording_separate1: I looked at you through the window?
Anita GMT20230830-163910_Recording_separate2: I think it's a lot of it is when certain things happen, I don't just send out congratulations. I talk to them about, Oh, wow, you know what, this worked really, really well. And, you know, this is the impact it had. And I truly like I'll use that is I truly appreciate you. I'll also one of the other things is [00:31:00] if things don't go so well.
I'm not the type to go in and say, did this happen, but more curious as in, you know, what happened and how can we as a team, so I don't leave them stranded by themselves, but how do we as a team. Move this in the right direction. I also one of the other things I do for them is I talk about how there's more than one way to get to an end result, because I think too often we as individuals think very.
Black and white and we, we tend to think our way is the only way forward. And I think as true leaders, what we need to do is look at things a little bit more broadly and understand that our way might not only be the best way or the only way. So I do that with my team quite a bit as I, I listen to them and try to understand their approach.
And sometimes, you know, my direction [00:32:00] might work, but theirs will too. And I'll say, you know what, let's go with you. Let's just move this forward in this direction and we'll see where it kind of unfolds. So that, that's kind of what I do is I, I, I try to really support them and give them that space.
Anita - Lisa track GMT20230830-163910_Recording_separate1: Beautiful. All right. Thank you. Well, my last question is, is, is simply do you have any resources or books or podcasts that you'd like to recommend to the listeners?
Anita GMT20230830-163910_Recording_separate2: Ooh, you know, it's actually, there's a couple of books that I, I, that have really kind of guided me in my direction. One, it's not a heavy read. It, it's, Pathfinders. And it's just to try to help understand what areas you're strong on. And the reason why this book kind of resonated for me was there's this one story in it.
It's about this this kid who goes to Notre Dame and his dream was always to be a football player. He wasn't very good, but you know, he pushed his way and did everything he could to get there and, [00:33:00] and the end story was, you know, they, the quarterback went out and he ended up stepping in and he made this miraculous play that saved the day and they won.
And then the author pauses and says, well, that's not reality. And, and the reason why that book stands out for me is. What I think is wouldn't the world be so much better if we focused in on areas that we loved and we were good at and really tried to develop them versus trying to build on areas and focus our attention on these things that we're not good at so we can get torn down each day.
Yeah, so that's one of them. And then the other book is by Sheryl Sandberg. It's lean in and myself as a woman, a woman of color, you know, that book really just echoed to me for my growth in an organization. And, you know, I know her, her message was more about in order to lean in, you need to have supports and you need to put things aside [00:34:00] and move forward and, and not doubt yourself.
But the message that I kind of took from that book was, you know, I'm in a spot or a point in my life where I am in a leadership role. And what I realized from that book is there's a lot of barriers we as individuals face, whether it be through our race, our gender, how we identify or don't identify with disabilities or all that.
What we need to do is we need to remove those barriers so people can truly lean in. So that's kind of what I took from that book. So those are two books that I think are worth while exploring many more, but those are the two I can think of off the top of my head.
Anita - Lisa track GMT20230830-163910_Recording_separate1: Wonderful. Thank you. Yes. I'm familiar with, very familiar with lean in and I've heard of pathfinders over the years and very interested in the area of strength. So I'll have to check that out. Well, thank you so much, Anita. It's been really a pleasure having you on the show. I appreciate you taking the time.
Anita GMT20230830-163910_Recording_separate2: Perfect. [00:35:00] Thank you so much for your time as well, Lisa. I really appreciate it.
Anita - Lisa track GMT20230830-163910_Recording_separate1: My pleasure.
